Single Level Dining Cars

[AlanB]

I was thinking through which trains were still running with Heritage dining cars. Let me know if I missed any...
Crescent, Silver Star, Silver Meteor.

So, why is it the dining car was taken from the LSL and not another train?

The last time I was on a Silver, they had to substitute a different than normal dining car.

Sorry, I am not into ID'ing slight differences in cars. I do remember the dining staff mentioning that it had a different number of booths (either a couple more or a couple less). The staff also mentioned being a bit disorganized because some things were kept in a different place.

So, I wonder are the Heritage cars wearing out, and there aren't enough working to support all LD trains?

The only other single level "dining" car that Amtrak has is the Diner-Lite, so that is definately what you experienced, and has far less tables than a normal Heritage diner. And yes, that is exactly what has been steadily occuring for the past couple of years. As Heritage cars become too expensive to maintain and too unreliable to place on a revenue run, Amtrak simply retires them. This caused a huge deficit in the diner fleet, which prompted the refurbishment of Amfleet II lounge cars into "Diner-Lite" so that single level LD trains could still guarantee having a diner in the consist. To make it easier and predictable, the LSL permanently stripped of Heritage diners and replaced with the new cars. The Cardinal was also given a new lounge as an "upgrade" from its typical cafe car. There are two possible scenerios for your experience. 1: The Heritage diner was bad ordered and the diner-lite car was simply taken off from the LSL to fill in for it, or 2: The LSL consist from the previous day was used as that day's Silver Star/Meteor as a result of accident or hastiness.

While I'll admit that I haven't gone counting, I can't imagine how the Diner-Lite car has less tables than a Heritage dining car. In the Heritage dining car, fully half the car is given over to the kitchen. In a Diner-Lite car there are tables on both sides of the car, with the small food service/prep area in the center of the car.

As for what prompted the Diner-Lite cars being created, that was the out growth of the Congressional mandate to Amtrak to cut its food service losses. Amtrak came up with the poor SDS plan as one part of the solution to meeting that mandate. Diner-Lite, CCC's, Diner-Lounges, Lounge-Diners were yet another component of the plan to meet the mandate, and were possible because of much of what SDS brought us.

I've not heard that the change in indeed permenant for the LSL, several people still claim that it is temporary until Amtrak fixes the Heritage diners or gets replacements.

And yes, for the Cardinal Diner-Lite was indeed an upgrade from the single Amfleet II cafe car it was running with. Of course at one time the Cardinal used to run with a full dining car too.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

They are in the process of "Refurbishing" Heritage diners at Beech Grove, or so the reports say. I can't imagine they are thinking of getting rid of them if they are putting money into refurbishing. I mean, they must be coming up on their 30 year truck requirements. They're morons if they aren't doing the trucks, but are refurbishing them.

 

[Larry H.]

Those "morons" are probably the same that "fixed" the toilets in the superliners that now don't flush at high altitude.. Morons indeed!

 

[wayman]

While I'll admit that I haven't gone counting, I can't imagine how the Diner-Lite car has less tables than a Heritage dining car. In the Heritage dining car, fully half the car is given over to the kitchen. In a Diner-Lite car there are tables on both sides of the car, with the small food service/prep area in the center of the car.

It certainly feels like the Diner-Lite seats fewer than a Heritage Diner. I think there are five-and-a-half booths on one side and maybe six booths on the other side of the car, and of those at least two are always non-revenue (ie, very cluttered, fully visible storage space). A Heritage Diner has, I think, fourteen booths of which two are almost always non-revenue. So right there, the Diner-Lite is already down by about two-and-a-half booths to start, 12 to 9.5. On the LSL, all 9.5 tables are used, but on the Cardinal, only about 4 are used because they keep one half of the car as a lounge! So there are definitely seating capacity differences, I'm just not sure I have the numbers quite right. (And even if I'm wrong about the Heritage Diner, and it only has twelve booths to begin with... they're still used more efficiently somehow, it sure feels it....)

I've not heard that the change in indeed permenant for the LSL, several people still claim that it is temporary until Amtrak fixes the Heritage diners or gets replacements.

When I went looking into Heritage Diner history some months back, I think I determined that three diners were removed from active service between 2004 and 2007 (8501, 8511, 8554), and an additional two were removed between 2001 and 2004 (8503, 8519). And of course, many more were removed from service before 2001.

What's the current status of those five cars? Are any of them in the refurbishing process at Beech Grove? Or if not these, which ones are? (And where can I look up that sort of information?)

And yes, for the Cardinal Diner-Lite was indeed an upgrade from the single Amfleet II cafe car it was running with. Of course at one time the Cardinal used to run with a full dining car too.

Did it ever run with a Heritage Diner, or did it stop running with a full diner when (or even before) it switched from Superliners to Amfleets?

 

[Rafi]

Did it ever run with a Heritage Diner, or did it stop running with a full diner when (or even before) it switched from Superliners to Amfleets?

From approximately 2002 to 2004, the single level Cardinal ran with I believe two Viewliners and a heritage diner in addition to a cafe. At that point, it was taken down to one Viewliner (even ran withOUT a Viewliner for a few weeks, IIRC) and a cafe.

Rafi

 

[jphjaxfl]

The Heritage Dining Cars are mostly older than the Pacific Parlor Cars which were built in 1957. The Dining Cars were built between 1948 and 1957. At the age they are, they will be costly and difficult to upgrade. How many automobles or busses are operating that are as old? These cars have many, many miles on them. Amtrak should have built some Viewliner Dining Cars. There was a prototype. As usual, with the limited funding provided by Congress they were unable to build new dining cars. So they have no choice to substitute Amfleet lounges. If Amtrak doesn't order some new equipment soon, it will have to operate shorter trains with less amenities. Its a death spiral, but thats what our political leaders have given us.

 

[wayman]

The Heritage Dining Cars are mostly older than the Pacific Parlor Cars which were built in 1957. The Dining Cars were built between 1948 and 1957. At the age they are, they will be costly and difficult to upgrade. How many automobles or busses are operating that are as old? These cars have many, many miles on them. Amtrak should have built some Viewliner Dining Cars. There was a prototype. As usual, with the limited funding provided by Congress they were unable to build new dining cars. So they have no choice to substitute Amfleet lounges. If Amtrak doesn't order some new equipment soon, it will have to operate shorter trains with less amenities. Its a death spiral, but thats what our political leaders have given us.

Railroad cars have always been built to last far longer than buses or automobiles. And one huge difference is that railroad cars don't have engines, drive trains, etc--at a certain point, it's more expensive to replace an engine than to repair it, and it's also more expensive to replace an engine (and do other maintenance) than to just buy a new bus. Yes, new trucks and such are expensive, but the value you get for them--in terms of continued longevity--is very high.

 

[Tony]

The only other single level "dining" car that Amtrak has is the Diner-Lite, so that is definately what you experienced, and has far less tables than a normal Heritage diner. And yes, that is exactly what has been steadily occuring for the past couple of years.

The substitute dining car on that Silver, still had table/booths on only one side of the kitchen. Could that be this Diner-Lite car?

Again, the difference was only 2 booths. In thinking about this a bit more, they normally have 10 tables/booth, but the substitute dining car had 12. Their fix? To not use the extra 2. I guess they felt that serving 10 tables was already enough for them to handle.

So, it still brings up the question, what dining car could that have been? Or do some Heritage cars have 10 and some have 12, depending on past remodels?

 

[AlanB]

While I'll admit that I haven't gone counting, I can't imagine how the Diner-Lite car has less tables than a Heritage dining car. In the Heritage dining car, fully half the car is given over to the kitchen. In a Diner-Lite car there are tables on both sides of the car, with the small food service/prep area in the center of the car.

It certainly feels like the Diner-Lite seats fewer than a Heritage Diner. I think there are five-and-a-half booths on one side and maybe six booths on the other side of the car, and of those at least two are always non-revenue (ie, very cluttered, fully visible storage space). A Heritage Diner has, I think, fourteen booths of which two are almost always non-revenue. So right there, the Diner-Lite is already down by about two-and-a-half booths to start, 12 to 9.5. On the LSL, all 9.5 tables are used, but on the Cardinal, only about 4 are used because they keep one half of the car as a lounge! So there are definitely seating capacity differences, I'm just not sure I have the numbers quite right. (And even if I'm wrong about the Heritage Diner, and it only has twelve booths to begin with... they're still used more efficiently somehow, it sure feels it....)

There are no single level dining cars with 14 booths. They either have 12 booths or 10 booths, depending on their configurations for a capacity of 48 or 40 respectively. And then of course in most cases the crew removes two of the booths from service for their own needs. I'm not sure what the seating capcity of the Diner-Lite is, but again I do believe that it is as high as the dining cars, if not higher. I'm certain that when I was on one earlier this month, and I'll admit that I didn't sit there counting, but the side of the car that butted up against the sleepers where I sat everytime had 8 booths, 4 on each side. And I know that there are booths on the other side too, so they have to be close.

I've not heard that the change in indeed permenant for the LSL, several people still claim that it is temporary until Amtrak fixes the Heritage diners or gets replacements.

When I went looking into Heritage Diner history some months back, I think I determined that three diners were removed from active service between 2004 and 2007 (8501, 8511, 8554), and an additional two were removed between 2001 and 2004 (8503, 8519). And of course, many more were removed from service before 2001.

What's the current status of those five cars? Are any of them in the refurbishing process at Beech Grove? Or if not these, which ones are? (And where can I look up that sort of information?)

Between June 10th 2003 and today, 4 Heritage diners have been stricken from the active roster. I'm not sure how many may have been taken out of service before that point in time.

I have no idea on the status of the 4 cars that I can confirm as being removed from the active roster. So far this year 3 cars that are on the active roster have been released from BG. As of May though, 4 cars were supposed to have been released, but they are falling behind because unforseen work that is needed on these 60+ year old cars. When I have time I'll go check to see if they did any last fiscal year.

 

[AlanB]

The only other single level "dining" car that Amtrak has is the Diner-Lite, so that is definately what you experienced, and has far less tables than a normal Heritage diner. And yes, that is exactly what has been steadily occuring for the past couple of years.

The substitute dining car on that Silver, still had table/booths on only one side of the kitchen. Could that be this Diner-Lite car?

Again, the difference was only 2 booths. In thinking about this a bit more, they normally have 10 tables/booth, but the substitute dining car had 12. Their fix? To not use the extra 2. I guess they felt that serving 10 tables was already enough for them to handle.

So, it still brings up the question, what dining car could that have been? Or do some Heritage cars have 10 and some have 12, depending on past remodels?

It was definately not a Diner-Lite car if all the tables were on one side. Diner-Lite's have tables on both sides and a food prep area that you walk right by and can see. The dining cars have a wall preventing you from seeing into the kitchen.

And as I noted in my post above, Heritage diners can have either 10 booths or 12 booths. So it sure sounds like you saw a Heritage diner, so I'm not sure why the crew was having trouble dealing with it.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

While I'll admit that I haven't gone counting, I can't imagine how the Diner-Lite car has less tables than a Heritage dining car. In the Heritage dining car, fully half the car is given over to the kitchen. In a Diner-Lite car there are tables on both sides of the car, with the small food service/prep area in the center of the car.

It certainly feels like the Diner-Lite seats fewer than a Heritage Diner. I think there are five-and-a-half booths on one side and maybe six booths on the other side of the car, and of those at least two are always non-revenue (ie, very cluttered, fully visible storage space). A Heritage Diner has, I think, fourteen booths of which two are almost always non-revenue. So right there, the Diner-Lite is already down by about two-and-a-half booths to start, 12 to 9.5. On the LSL, all 9.5 tables are used, but on the Cardinal, only about 4 are used because they keep one half of the car as a lounge! So there are definitely seating capacity differences, I'm just not sure I have the numbers quite right. (And even if I'm wrong about the Heritage Diner, and it only has twelve booths to begin with... they're still used more efficiently somehow, it sure feels it....)

A Diner-Lite has those 14 booths you were mentioning earlier. Seating capacity is 56. The Heritage has 10 or 12, so it can seat 40 or 48.

And yes, for the Cardinal Diner-Lite was indeed an upgrade from the single Amfleet II cafe car it was running with. Of course at one time the Cardinal used to run with a full dining car too.

Did it ever run with a Heritage Diner, or did it stop running with a full diner when (or even before) it switched from Superliners to Amfleets?

Naturally, it ran with Heritage diners. All long distance trains on Amtraks system save, I think, the Empire Builder ran a Heritage diner at some point in its life. "Heritage" referring to inherited rail cars upgraded to HEP. I think the first HEP Empire Builder ran Superliners. As for the Cardinal, specifically, I know it ran a Heritage diner with a counter because I still remember, to this day, my father getting into a vehement argument with a SA about still serving breakfast since we woke up late. (My name is GreenManedLion and I do not support the preceding.)

The Heritage Dining Cars are mostly older than the Pacific Parlor Cars which were built in 1957. The Dining Cars were built between 1948 and 1957. At the age they are, they will be costly and difficult to upgrade. How many automobles or busses are operating that are as old? These cars have many, many miles on them. Amtrak should have built some Viewliner Dining Cars. There was a prototype. As usual, with the limited funding provided by Congress they were unable to build new dining cars. So they have no choice to substitute Amfleet lounges. If Amtrak doesn't order some new equipment soon, it will have to operate shorter trains with less amenities. Its a death spiral, but thats what our political leaders have given us.

Buses are not built in the mid-50s by Edward G. Budd Company. If Amtrak has the will to maintain them properly, my friend, they will out live us.

 

[jis]

Naturally, it ran with Heritage diners. All long distance trains on Amtraks system save, I think, the Empire Builder ran a Heritage diner at some point in its life.

What did the Empire Builder have for Diner before it became a Superliner train in 79?

 

[jphjaxfl]

The Empire Builder used ex Great Northern and Northern Pacific dining cars before the Superliners started in 1979. For a long time, the GN dining cars still had a picture of James J. Hill at the kitchen end of the car until the first interior refurbishing by Amtrak. The CB&Q and NP placed 6 new dining cars in service on the North Coast Limited in 1958. Some of these are still being used to this day. The 6 dining cars for the North Coast Limited were the last new single level dining cars built in the US. The Santa Fe built 6 high level dining cars for the El Capitan in 1956 and the CB&Q built 2 slingle level dining cars for the new Denver Zephyr in 1956. Will Amtrak ever build any single level dining cars or will the 6 cars built in 1958 be the last ever built in the US for use on American trains?

 

[wayman]

The Empire Builder used ex Great Northern and Northern Pacific dining cars before the Superliners started in 1979. For a long time, the GN dining cars still had a picture of James J. Hill at the kitchen end of the car until the first interior refurbishing by Amtrak. The CB&Q and NP placed 6 new dining cars in service on the North Coast Limited in 1958. Some of these are still being used to this day. The 6 dining cars for the North Coast Limited were the last new single level dining cars built in the US. The Santa Fe built 6 high level dining cars for the El Capitan in 1956 and the CB&Q built 2 slingle level dining cars for the new Denver Zephyr in 1956. Will Amtrak ever build any single level dining cars or will the 6 cars built in 1958 be the last ever built in the US for use on American trains?

So I don't get it. How are those any different from "Heritage Diners", when that term simply means "any diner inherited or acquired from another railroad"? As far as I can tell, the Empire Builder ran with Heritage Diners by definition.

 

[jphjaxfl]

The dining cars and other equipment inherited from the private railroads were designated "Heritage" equipment when they were modified for H.E.P.(Head End Power) Not all the private railroad's equipment was upgraded for H.E.P. Most of the cars that were upgraded for H.E.P. were stainless steel cars built by the Budd Company which were in much better shape than equipment from PS, ACF and St. Louis Car.

 

[Palmland]

The only other single level "dining" car that Amtrak has is the Diner-Lite, so that is definately what you experienced, and has far less tables than a normal Heritage diner. And yes, that is exactly what has been steadily occuring for the past couple of years.

The substitute dining car on that Silver, still had table/booths on only one side of the kitchen. Could that be this Diner-Lite car?

Again, the difference was only 2 booths. In thinking about this a bit more, they normally have 10 tables/booth, but the substitute dining car had 12. Their fix? To not use the extra 2. I guess they felt that serving 10 tables was already enough for them to handle.

So, it still brings up the question, what dining car could that have been? Or do some Heritage cars have 10 and some have 12, depending on past remodels?

I know most diners are understaffed so only a limited number can be served at one seating, but why must the crews store supplies and paperwork on the unused tables. It looks unsightly and unprofessional. Certainly prior to Amtrak you never saw this in the diners. I would think the supplies (like a full set of china, linen, and a lot more food preparation items) would have made it much more difficult to keep an orderly diner then than required for today's stripped down diners.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The Empire Builder used ex Great Northern and Northern Pacific dining cars before the Superliners started in 1979. For a long time, the GN dining cars still had a picture of James J. Hill at the kitchen end of the car until the first interior refurbishing by Amtrak. The CB&Q and NP placed 6 new dining cars in service on the North Coast Limited in 1958. Some of these are still being used to this day. The 6 dining cars for the North Coast Limited were the last new single level dining cars built in the US. The Santa Fe built 6 high level dining cars for the El Capitan in 1956 and the CB&Q built 2 slingle level dining cars for the new Denver Zephyr in 1956. Will Amtrak ever build any single level dining cars or will the 6 cars built in 1958 be the last ever built in the US for use on American trains?

So I don't get it. How are those any different from "Heritage Diners", when that term simply means "any diner inherited or acquired from another railroad"? As far as I can tell, the Empire Builder ran with Heritage Diners by definition.

As mentioned, "Heritage" cars only apply to cars equipped for Head-End-Power. I think the Empire Builder was the only train in Amtrak's system to not run with HEP single-level passenger cars. Although it could conceivably apply to the SWC (then Southwest Limited) and California Zephyr (then San Francisco Zephyr), I remember them as having briefly run HEP Heritage equipment. But on the other hand, since they have both been renamed, technically my comment still stands.

 

[Amtrak Kid]

What? None of that makes any sense.. They used steam heated equipment till the early 80s (when most hep conversions were done). When the superliner 1's were first delivered, they were using steam heated equipment still. I've seen photos that proove that. Plus, many heritage cars were done in the 80s, and the ones done in the 70s useually have different looking marker lights. Either high up or square. Most of the 70s hep jobs are on the 72ft budd baggage cars from atsf.

Hope that clears everything up.

Corey