Should I complain?

[battalion51]

Instead of expensive locos sitting around as spares, why not take a few boxcars and install a Cummings diesel and a surplus HEP alternator from an old F40in each one? Storing them system-wide would be far, far cheaper, and although speed would have to be much lower (freight gearing), it'd be better than not moving at all.
When the F40's (and Amfleet HEP) started showing up, Amtrak had a few steam generator cars made (besides the former GN ones), as well as HEP generator cars; they ran system-wide to maintain locomotive interchangeability until everything went 100% HEP. SOme were made from baggage cars, some from E-units, A & B.

Good idea in theory. It's somewhat impractical though. There are a few main parts on a motor that can break (and are usually the main ones to go). Things like your Main Reservior, Main Generator, etc. will all mean your train is dead in the water, so a non-powered (from a traction sense) unit does you absolutely no good. My personal belief is that the 42s were designed wrong from Day 1 with the exclusion of a seperate HEP package (standard on EMD and MPI passenger models). I'd personally rather see trains that only have one motor (outside the NEC) have an NPCU thats been retrofitted with an HEP package on them. This way you can transfer the stress of HEP over to the NPCU and let the 42 do its job of running traction for the train. This will improve fuel economy and engine wear (since you're not running at 900 RPM constantly), and if your 42 fails you have HEP on the NPCU. If your NPCU you can transfer power over to the 42 and run it the old fashioned way. Unfortunately this is pretty much just a pipe dream since it requires the precious commodity of money.

 

[Ghost]

Answer to OP:
Voucher scam!

I differ. I don't think Walt is making up the fact the locomotive broke down (ie, trying to scam a voucher).

Besides, I think that CS would at least verify a complaint like that, before even offering Walt a voucher.

 

[transit54]

While I personally wouldn't complain (I've just had my share of airline delays that makes an hour wait look like a picnic), I wouldn't necessary advise you not to do so. I think its important to acknowledge that, when traveling, things can go wrong. The question is did Amtrak handle the situation in a way that minimized the inconvenience of you and everyone else on the train, or was there something they could have done better? If your answer is the former, I'd say leave the issue be. If the answer is the latter, I'd call them and let them know. In any event, I may just call them and ask for a voucher for the amount of the BC upgrade. I think that might be a reasonable compromise.

 

[Walt]

In any event, I may just call them and ask for a voucher for the amount of the BC upgrade. I think that might be a reasonable compromise.

I emailed Amtrak Customer Relations last night about my problem. Actually, I closed it by suggesting that possibly a refund of my BC upgrade would be reasonable compensation. Honestly, if they countered with say 1000 AGR rail points, I would jump on it. Or even a free meal voucher.

I acknowledged in my email that I had been an Amtrak passenger for years, and 1 hour is certianly not the worse I have encounter, but added that I felt that Amtrak alone was responsible for maintaining its locomotives in good working condition. In other words, this was unlike other delays which were do to things like fright train congestion and CSX track problems.

Thanks to everyone who posted here! I did read them all, and you all gave me some good views on this.

 

[Guest_Yerry_*]

"Impractical"? Nonsense.

Whether HEP dies more or less often than the loco itself is pointless; result is the same in every case-- no HEP. Bring in a spare freight loco from UP, CSX or wherever, your now-moving-again train still has no HEP. And lots of unhappy people.

On the once-a-day long hauls, a HEP failure immediately becomes catastrophic. Check out the latest TWA posting for the latest horror story. People understand things can break, but expect them to be fixed. Fix it and you're a hero for an hour, but if you fail to, you're an idiot forever. Human nature.

A cheap, simple Cummings diesel in a cheap car (anything that can move) and a used 480V 3p alternator is all it takes. It doesn't even have to be a full 65/75 Kw setup-- just enough to maintain a relatively decent amount of comfort. Not like they'll get used every day (or week). Just something cheap enough that can be left at a strategic location without someone else wanting it elsewhere (like they would a NPCU).

As far as stress on a P42, the only place on the system where demands can exceed what working locos can provide is Raton Pass. Lowest Continental Divide crossing, but it's all 4% plus. Here, Amtrak could have taken a cue from my local power company; Mondays, when demand is highest (Laundry day is still traditional here, believe it or not), once that last generator hits 100%, we flip a switch and all the homes in the area start cycling their water heaters off and on.

And what makes putting the same stuff inside a NPCU better? Same function. P42's WAY outpower what's needed on Midwest trains, so there's no "stress" there. Even the old F40 was overdoing it. Sure, they should carry spare HEP, for the exact same concept, but them and not something system-wide? The long hauls don't use cabbage cars.

An advantage of a HEP car is that a loco with dead HEP can still pull revenue while on its way to the shop, this freeing up a good loco.

The debacle reported in the latest TWA could have been averted, at least partially, with a HEP car: Loco in front could have powered "what it could", and a HEP car in the back could have powered the rest.

And also, the mess with the Florida train with the melted HEP connector could have been resolved quite easily; Loco powered the train from cab on back to the bad car; HEP car (in the rear) could power the rest of the train (behind the dead car).

Finally, I've been aware of Amtrak's budget problems since Amfleet cars were still being delivered.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

we flip a switch and all the homes in the area start cycling their water heaters off and on.

There are cretins in this world that still heat water with electric water heaters? :unsure:

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

My personal belief is that the 42s were designed wrong from Day 1 with the exclusion of a seperate HEP package (standard on EMD and MPI passenger models). I'd personally rather see trains that only have one motor (outside the NEC) have an NPCU thats been retrofitted with an HEP package on them. This way you can transfer the stress of HEP over to the NPCU and let the 42 do its job of running traction for the train. This will improve fuel economy and engine wear (since you're not running at 900 RPM constantly), and if your 42 fails you have HEP on the NPCU. If your NPCU you can transfer power over to the 42 and run it the old fashioned way. Unfortunately this is pretty much just a pipe dream since it requires the precious commodity of money.

This might actually save Amtrak money in the long run.

My understanding from talking to someone who works for an ISP is that decent size generators cost somewhere around $5k to $10. That may not include installation and the transfer switch, but I think if you have a stationary building where you want a backup generator to use when the power goes out, the cost is well under $20k by the time you get it installed, and that assumes Boston area labor rates. I think we're talking several hundred kilowatts at these prices.

That doesn't get you a generator designed to run all day long at full load, but I think if you run it at 1/4 to 1/2 of its rated capacity, you may be OK for heavy use. (Or maybe you need something more expensive at that point. I'm not sure.)

Anyway, assume for a moment it turns out that you really can get a generator installed in some existing car for $20k that will survive heavy use. If you want to pay for that over 5 years (an unrealistically short period, really, but that may make up for some of the errors I may be making in the other direction elsewhere), that's $4k a year, which is a little over $10 a day, which means it needs to save something like $1 in fuel consumption per hour if you assume it spends half of its hours of existance in revenue service, which is very roughly a quart of diesel fuel per hour.

Does anyone have any good data on what the costs of running a P42 at HEP speed instead of the speed it would be running at without HEP really are in gallons per hour?

 

[Guest_Yerry_*]

There are cretins in this world that still heat water with electric water heaters? unsure.gif

Many people, cretins or otherwise, don't have a choice. Welcome to the real world.

 

[planetcadillac]

The ? is do you chalk this up to being one of life's minor adventures and inconveniences or does it rise to the level of starting WWIII over?

 

[transit54]

There are cretins in this world that still heat water with electric water heaters? unsure.gif

Many people, cretins or otherwise, don't have a choice. Welcome to the real world.

Indeed. I had one in my apartment last year. It's what the landlord has installed and I didn't have much say in the matter. Thankfully I've got gas at the new place.

 

[battalion51]

"Impractical"? Nonsense.
Whether HEP dies more or less often than the loco itself is pointless; result is the same in every case-- no HEP. Bring in a spare freight loco from UP, CSX or wherever, your now-moving-again train still has no HEP. And lots of unhappy people.

On the once-a-day long hauls, a HEP failure immediately becomes catastrophic. Check out the latest TWA posting for the latest horror story. People understand things can break, but expect them to be fixed. Fix it and you're a hero for an hour, but if you fail to, you're an idiot forever. Human nature.

A cheap, simple Cummings diesel in a cheap car (anything that can move) and a used 480V 3p alternator is all it takes. It doesn't even have to be a full 65/75 Kw setup-- just enough to maintain a relatively decent amount of comfort. Not like they'll get used every day (or week). Just something cheap enough that can be left at a strategic location without someone else wanting it elsewhere (like they would a NPCU).

As far as stress on a P42, the only place on the system where demands can exceed what working locos can provide is Raton Pass. Lowest Continental Divide crossing, but it's all 4% plus. Here, Amtrak could have taken a cue from my local power company; Mondays, when demand is highest (Laundry day is still traditional here, believe it or not), once that last generator hits 100%, we flip a switch and all the homes in the area start cycling their water heaters off and on.

And what makes putting the same stuff inside a NPCU better? Same function. P42's WAY outpower what's needed on Midwest trains, so there's no "stress" there. Even the old F40 was overdoing it. Sure, they should carry spare HEP, for the exact same concept, but them and not something system-wide? The long hauls don't use cabbage cars.

An advantage of a HEP car is that a loco with dead HEP can still pull revenue while on its way to the shop, this freeing up a good loco.

The debacle reported in the latest TWA could have been averted, at least partially, with a HEP car: Loco in front could have powered "what it could", and a HEP car in the back could have powered the rest.

And also, the mess with the Florida train with the melted HEP connector could have been resolved quite easily; Loco powered the train from cab on back to the bad car; HEP car (in the rear) could power the rest of the train (behind the dead car).

Finally, I've been aware of Amtrak's budget problems since Amfleet cars were still being delivered.

Ok, remember I said anything with one engine should have an HEP car? If it fails you transfer to your 42, so you have redundancy. Therefore cars in "strategic" locations become irrelevant and a waste of resources. When I talk stress on the engine, yeah, HEP is a stress. A P-42 runs at a maximum of 1020 RPM (it may be 1080, but I don't have the manual handy, it's in Florida). An Engine running traction and HEP must run at a minimum of 900 RPMs at all times to be able to power the HEP. This is why with the fuel crunch there is/was a policy that any train standing for longer than 5 minutes should switch to HEP Standby which only runs at 720 RPMs (but doesn't allow traction to be created). The reduction in engine speed equals a reduction in fuel being used. So when you take HEP out of the equation all together (thanks to a seperate HEP package) you can run the engine the way it should be run and let your Engine RPMs be dictated by what position the throttle is in, not how many are needed to satisfy the HEP.

 

[Guest_Spokker_*]

The OP is justified in complaining. The standard for commuter train service here in Southern California is that riders are eligible for compensation if their train experiences a delay of 1 hour, as long as it isn't an act of God and wasn't caused by a third-party.

An engine breakdown is certainly the fault of Amtrak and I hope the OP receives a voucher.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

There are cretins in this world that still heat water with electric water heaters? unsure.gif

Many people, cretins or otherwise, don't have a choice. Welcome to the real world.

Somebody had a choice and made it, be it the installer, the land lord, the owner, the lessor, or whatever.

 

[Walt]

The OP is justified in complaining. The standard for commuter train service here in Southern California is that riders are eligible for compensation if their train experiences a delay of 1 hour, as long as it isn't an act of God and wasn't caused by a third-party.
An engine breakdown is certainly the fault of Amtrak and I hope the OP receives a voucher.

Well, just to put the ending to this story, I just received in the mail today from Amtrak a $100 voucher.

Now I am stuck with the problem of how to someday turn the voucher into a ticket, without a 3 hour round trip to my nearest Amtrak station to do it in person.

 

[PaulM]

Now I am stuck with the problem of how to someday turn the voucher into a ticket, without a 3 hour round trip to my nearest Amtrak station to do it in person.

I used to have the same problem (I'm a frequent CZ rider). But when I called Customer Relations after a recent trip on the EB, I was given an electronic voucher and a code. I am supposed to be able to use the code when I buy a ticket for a future trip. I don't know whether this would be good online, or just over the phone.

Incidentally, the delay was also caused by a disabled engine, along with the sightseer lounge being left in Portland because of mechanical problems, diner only for sleeping car passengers because of refrigeration problems, and no A/C in the bedroom half of the Portland sleeper.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

There are cretins in this world that still heat water with electric water heaters? unsure.gif

Many people, cretins or otherwise, don't have a choice. Welcome to the real world.

Indeed. I had one in my apartment last year. It's what the landlord has installed and I didn't have much say in the matter. Thankfully I've got gas at the new place.

I'm all electric-all the way, why use expensive petroleum or natural gas when you can burn American coal to make cheap reliable electricity. Not to mention its easier to clean stationary emissions sources than mobile ones.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Because its about as efficient as communicating with your next door office mate via carrier pidgeon.

 

[Guest]

We were on NEC 175 on Aug 22 when the engine conked out at Wilmington, leaving us sitting in the dark with no A/C for several minutes. The train slowed on approach, then literally glided into the station and the power conked out. The conductor warned everyone not to use the bathrooms, as the toilets would not flush. This repeated at every station stop all the way to BWI, where we got off about 30 minutes behind schedule. We assume it continued this way into Washington. Is this a particular problem engine? And if so, why doesn't Amtrak get it fixed?

 

[AlanB]

We were on NEC 175 on Aug 22 when the engine conked out at Wilmington, leaving us sitting in the dark with no A/C for several minutes. The train slowed on approach, then literally glided into the station and the power conked out. The conductor warned everyone not to use the bathrooms, as the toilets would not flush. This repeated at every station stop all the way to BWI, where we got off about 30 minutes behind schedule. We assume it continued this way into Washington. Is this a particular problem engine? And if so, why doesn't Amtrak get it fixed?

Amtrak used two different types of engines on the corridor, so there is no way to even know if you even had the same type of engine, much less the very same engine as the person who started this topic.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Amtrak used two different types of engines on the corridor, so there is no way to even know if you even had the same type of engine, much less the very same engine as the person who started this topic.

Alan, I'd say that they use 3 types of electric engines. The AEM-7, the AEM-7AC, and the HHP-8. However, since you are speaking in the past tense, they also used the GG-1, that rotten E60, and I think a few other NH and NYC electrics, but I'm not sure. And I assume the FL-9 and possibly the P32AC/DM have been used on some NYP-BOS trains?