Seven Subway Line

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In some places Guest_Andrew's logic does prevail. Minnesota is building a bridge to make it easier to live in Wisconsin and commute to work in the Twin Cities. The project has never made sense to me.
Are you referring to the new Stillwater bridge? Granted, I'm not from the east metro, but I'll agree that it makes somewhere between zero and no sense to me. That money, in my opinion, would be much better spent on other investments *cough*Northstar extension or even east metro commuter rail*cough*
 
You stated, "...And therefore decided to move to NY."

But guess what, many people who live in NJ are planning on staying in NJ--not moving to NY!!
You took my statement out of context. I said: "NY would get more benefit if those people in NJ couldn't get to NY to work anymore and therefore decided to move to NY."

If people in NJ don't want to pay for the #7 extension and can't get to their jobs in NY, then they will either look for a new job if they want to stay in NJ or they will move to NY. Either way, NY wins!

I live in NYC (Queens) and I'm pro-rail. I spend considerable amounts of time posting facts around the internet regarding rail, as opposed to only asking questions about Gateway, and I don't want my taxes going to a #7 extension to help NJ. I want my NY taxes to benefit me and other New Yorkers. I want to see the Second Ave subway finished over the full length of Manhattan, and preferably extended into both Brooklyn & the Bronx. I want to see the F train extended in Queens, as well as the #7 built further out in Queens like originally planned. I want to see more subway service in many other places within the 5 boroughs. I want to see a subway between Staten Island and either Brooklyn or Manhattan.

NJ is not NY's problem. That is for NJ to figure out how to fix and perhaps get some Federal help too. Gateway does provide more benefit to NY, so I can see & support some NY tax dollars going into that. But even there, NJ gets the bigger benefit and therefore should be paying a larger portion of the costs not covered by the Fed.
 
But then how would NJ fund or finance a Seven Subway Extension to Secaucus or the Gateway Project?
 
But then how would NJ fund or finance a Seven Subway Extension to Secaucus or the Gateway Project?
Well IMHO, they shouldn't be funding a #7 extension to NJ. I don't think its the right idea. Maybe, just maybe after all of NY City's needs are met, then one could consider it. But it should not be a priority. It will only serve to distract from Gateway, which IMHO is a far more superior project and far more needed that the #7 in NJ.

As for funding Gateway, that should come from multiple sources including but certainly not limited to: NY State, NY City, Amtrak, New Jersey, the Port Authority, and the Fed. And the final three will need to be the biggest contributors.
 
But then how would NJ fund or finance a Seven Subway Extension to Secaucus or the Gateway Project?
NJ can raise gasoline taxes to pay for transportation and transit projects. First, support and fund Gateway. Then in another 12, 15, 20 years, if extending the Number 7 line to NJ is still considered a worthy project and all the players by then are in agreement, then start the long NEPA and PE process.

VA, MD, PA, and MA all raised taxes and fees this year to increase funding for transportation and transit projects. VA and PA have Republican Governors who managed to get the tax increases through Republican controlled legislatures with a combination of Democratic and moderate Republican votes. The VA governor had presidential and vice presidential ambitions at 1 time, but after he got passed over for the VEEP slot by Romney, buckled down and got a transportation deal done early this year.

NJ now has the 49th lowest gas taxes in the US, ahead of only Alaska (which gets much of state revenue from oil royalties so their gas excise tax is low). But since the NJ Governor has presidential ambitions and his path to the Oval office leads through the Republican primaries, he is not about to support raising the gas tax in NJ. So NJ will face challenges in providing funding for big transportation and transit projects until after it gets a new Governor.
 
1. I still do not see how NJ will fund Gateway. Will be through bonds or general appropriations?

2. Unfortunately, Christie has presidential ambitions, so that is why I do not see him raising the Gas Tax. But, since NJ has had one of the worst unemployment rates of all the 50 states, I do not see him becoming President...
 
I have no idea how NJ will choose to fund Gateway, and I don't care how they fund it either. Even though I was born & raised in NJ, I now live in NY State, so I'm only concerned with how NY funds it and what value they get for that funding.
 
I read that NYC could issue bonds and then partially fund Gateway through fees repaid back on property purchase near Penn Station.
 
Besides, I see little point to worrying about how to fund something that no one even has permission to build yet; not to mention no actual plans. All we have right now is an outline of where things would go and how they might work. Your putting the cart before the horse.
 
As I have said all along the earliest concrete action beyond protecting ROW related necessary work, is at least 4 to 5 years away. No one even knows for sure who will have jurisdiction of which part. My guess is nothing concrete beyond ROW protection will happen until the NEC Futures PEIS is completed. It is quite clear that no one is willing to stick their neck out without first having their rear ends covered by an LPA from the PEIS.
 
Then why is Amtrak so confident that major construction can begin in 2017 (after both phases of the tunnel box get completed)?

How would this influence which type of Penn Station South options gets chosen?

Is there any chance that a new station gets built below the current Penn Station?
 
Because being confident does not cost any money :p What they are saying is that they would like to start construction in 2017, but that does not mean it will happen. by a long shot. Remember they first have to get money to do the EIS, for which they have exactly $0 at present.

Of course if they can get funding for it, the Portal North segment of Gateway can begin construction as soon as they get any funding for it. But the tunnel segment and the Portal to Bergen segment is is a different matter

There are no options to choose for Penn Station south, except apparently in your mind, unless of course we are to completely discount what the project manager and the chief engineer have said repeatedly. There is exactly one plan, and that is the upper level.

There is no chance that a new station will get built below the current Penn Station. The existence of a badly crumbled fault with very poor rock quality precludes boring under the station without grossly risking the station itself. That is part of the reason that ARC moved its station from the original MIS Alt P which was under the station over to it being under 34th St.
 
What would NJ commuters prefer:

Seven Subway Extension or Gateway Project?
I can't imagine that most wouldn't much rather retain their far more comfortable seat on their faster commuter train with no further stops until they're in NY, and delay their transfer to any subway for as long as possible. And that requires Gateway.

And I can speak from experience, as again I grew up in NJ. The two reasons that I now live in NYC are my wife and the lack of a commuter rail option from where I lived.
 
The issue of "one seat ride" to Penn Station as the case is, is a little more complicated than the simple minded analysis, or lack thereof that I have observed here regarding choice of commuters.

First of all the hypothesis that everyone has a deep desire to arrive at Penn Station and then get on a subway is clearly a myth, since the World Trade Center crowd usually abandons their one seat ride in Newark or Hoboken and hops on a PATH train (or a ferry from Hoboken) as a choice instead of staying on to get to Penn Station and then get a subway. So we can just discount that as not important. What is important is being able to get where one needs to go most efficiently.

A very small proportion of commuters arriving at NYP work within walking distance of NYP. So the rest get on subway or bus to get to wherever they need to go. I.e. they really dont have a one seat ride to where they want to go anyway. A large proportion go to the area north of Grand Central. This is the reason that the MIS done in the early 90s after a lot of surveying etc. chose Alternative G which would have some trains run through Penn Station, possibly even without stopping there through bypass tunnels and then proceed to a station in the vicinity of Grand Central.

Of course such would require funding a huge project in Manhattan upending lot of people's lives for many years, from somewhere other than New York. For parochial reasons amply exhibited in their postings here by some, that is unlikely to come to pass.

So then the question of getting people to GCT north still remains and Gateway does not address it at all, indeed it makes the situation worse by dumping another 20 trains worth of passengers per hour at Penn Station with absolutely zero additional capacity added to the subway system to disperse them to anywhere. Of course if all the 20 trains worth of new arrivals were going to the Gateway development, that would cease to be a problem, but no one believes that to be the case based on current projections.

The primary goal for a signification plurality of NJ Commuters has been to get to the upper east side, and even onto Queens. Currently they do so by taking E or F trains from the vicinity of NYP. As mentioned before there is no plan to significantly enhance this service. Foreseeing this problem the original Gateway plan had envisaged a 7 extension under 30th St to a station in the vicinity of NYP. That is pretty much not happening since the tail tracks now stretch down to 20th St.

That is why in NJ, based on feedback from NJ commuters of today, as opposed to from the last century, various schemes are being considered for getting people off the mainline trains, which go to the wrong part of New York, somewhere in NJ, and getting them onto an acceptable length of time journey to the upper east side by other means. And that is where 7 to Secaucus comes in.

Now I know there is a lot of invested emotion in a pair of tunnels to New York Penn Station, and I also think that that will be the first thing to happen. Indeed that is what at least one advocacy group that I am associated with (NJ-ARP) is not at all opposed to and it supports Gateway completely and is working closely with the Gateway team on this. Indeed it is at NJ-ARP's goading that NARP came out in full support of Gateway in the recent past. There are other rail advocacy groups who are much more openly hostile to the current Gateway plans.

But the same advocacy group (NJ-ARP) is also considering possibilities to address the ultimate goal of getting easily to upper east side while avoiding the utter mess and chaos that Penn Station is and is going to continue to be. No amount of lipstick on that pig that can be realistically applied will address the real problem, which is dispersal of the hoards once they arrive there. Hence the support for 7 to Secaucus and also for possible future extension from Penn Station to a station in the vicinity of GCT, with a general feeling that the subway option is more realistic and achievable.

The subway option is believed to be more achievable at least at present, because it is potentially cheaper* to build and operate, with fewer internecine problems to deal with. The new construction is almost entirely in NJ so it will be easier to fund and manage the construction, and real estate costs will be next to nothing. It clearly will be NJ's responsibility to build and fund operations of it.

Basically Gateway does not add any additional choices and actually makes the currently available choices arguably worse by increasing overcrowding at Penn Station. It just provides more of the same. So even after Gateway is built there will be need to provide alternatives. Gateway will just create a bigger chaos at Penn Station. It's primary purpose is to serve Regional Rail and that is a good thing that all should support. But it does not address the basic identified needs of NJ commuters, notwithstanding what one person with a last century experience of commuting when many fewer people actually used the system than what is projected to do, might think. :p And of course the commuter rail option that was lacking back then continues as such, since not much will change as far as that goes, with Gateway.

* Cheaper to build because subway tunnels do not have to be the larger diameter mainline sized tunnels, and they can take much higher grades and degrees of curvature. Subways are cheaper to operate because of the less severe staffing requirements. The highest component of operations cost typically is labor for on board staff. And fortuitously, 7 happens to go to exactly the right places, and ironically, it even serves the Gateway development better than Penn Station does.
 
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The issue of "one seat ride" to Penn Station as the case is, is a little more complicated than the simple minded analysis, or lack thereof that I have observed here regarding choice of commuters.

First of all the hypothesis that everyone has a deep desire to arrive at Penn Station and then get on a subway is clearly a myth, since the World Trade Center crowd usually abandons their one seat ride in Newark or Hoboken and hops on a PATH train (or a ferry from Hoboken) as a choice instead of staying on to get to Penn Station and then get a subway. So we can just discount that as not important. What is important is being able to get where one needs to go most efficiently.

A very small proportion of commuters arriving at NYP work within walking distance of NYP. So the rest get on subway or bus to get to wherever they need to go. I.e. they really dont have a one seat ride to where they want to go anyway. A large proportion go to the area north of Grand Central. This is the reason that the MIS done in the early 90s after a lot of surveying etc. chose Alternative G which would have some trains run through Penn Station, possibly even without stopping there through bypass tunnels and then proceed to a station in the vicinity of Grand Central.

Of course such would require funding a huge project in Manhattan upending lot of people's lives for many years, from somewhere other than New York. For parochial reasons amply exhibited in their postings here by some, that is unlikely to come to pass.

So then the question of getting people to GCT north still remains and Gateway does not address it at all, indeed it makes the situation worse by dumping another 20 trains worth of passengers per hour at Penn Station with absolutely zero additional capacity added to the subway system to disperse them to anywhere. Of course if all the 20 trains worth of new arrivals were going to the Gateway development, that would cease to be a problem, but no one believes that to be the case based on current projections.

The primary goal for a signification plurality of NJ Commuters has been to get to the upper east side, and even onto Queens. Currently they do so by taking E or F trains from the vicinity of NYP. As mentioned before there is no plan to significantly enhance this service. Foreseeing this problem the original Gateway plan had envisaged a 7 extension under 30th St to a station in the vicinity of NYP. That is pretty much not happening since the tail tracks now stretch down to 20th St.

That is why in NJ, based on feedback from NJ commuters of today, as opposed to from the last century, various schemes are being considered for getting people off the mainline trains, which go to the wrong part of New York, somewhere in NJ, and getting them onto an acceptable length of time journey to the upper east side by other means. And that is where 7 to Secaucus comes in.

Now I know there is a lot of invested emotion in a pair of tunnels to New York Penn Station, and I also think that that will be the first thing to happen. Indeed that is what at least one advocacy group that I am associated with (NJ-ARP) is not at all opposed to and it supports Gateway completely and is working closely with the Gateway team on this. Indeed it is at NJ-ARP's goading that NARP came out in full support of Gateway in the recent past. There are other rail advocacy groups who are much more openly hostile to the current Gateway plans.

But the same advocacy group (NJ-ARP) is also considering possibilities to address the ultimate goal of getting easily to upper east side while avoiding the utter mess and chaos that Penn Station is and is going to continue to be. No amount of lipstick on that pig that can be realistically applied will address the real problem, which is dispersal of the hoards once they arrive there. Hence the support for 7 to Secaucus and also for possible future extension from Penn Station to a station in the vicinity of GCT, with a general feeling that the subway option is more realistic and achievable.

The subway option is believed to be more achievable at least at present, because it is potentially cheaper* to build and operate, with fewer internecine problems to deal with. The new construction is almost entirely in NJ so it will be easier to fund and manage the construction, and real estate costs will be next to nothing. It clearly will be NJ's responsibility to build and fund operations of it.

Basically Gateway does not add any additional choices and actually makes the currently available choices arguably worse by increasing overcrowding at Penn Station. It just provides more of the same. So even after Gateway is built there will be need to provide alternatives. Gateway will just create a bigger chaos at Penn Station. It's primary purpose is to serve Regional Rail and that is a good thing that all should support. But it does not address the basic identified needs of NJ commuters, notwithstanding what one person with a last century experience of commuting when many fewer people actually used the system than what is projected to do, might think. :p And of course the commuter rail option that was lacking back then continues as such, since not much will change as far as that goes, with Gateway.

* Cheaper to build because subway tunnels do not have to be the larger diameter mainline sized tunnels, and they can take much higher grades and degrees of curvature. Subways are cheaper to operate because of the less severe staffing requirements. The highest component of operations cost typically is labor for on board staff. And fortuitously, 7 happens to go to exactly the right places, and ironically, it even serves the Gateway development better than Penn Station does.
Very interesting information.

1. Gateway does a great job of increasing capacity from high-demand places such as Washington D.C. and Princeton, NJ. But, I still strongly believe that Gateway is a good use of taxpayers money. After all, many people who currently take the Uptown E or F trains during the AM Rush Hour (and Southbound in the PM Rush Hour) are commuters from Long Island who will stop this routine once East Side Access opens. (LIRR trains will eventually travel to Grand Central Terminal which means that many commuters will simply have to exit their train there and walk 10 or so minutes to their offices). Also, CBTC is being installed on the E Line between the inter-lockings north of the 42nd street station and between East 53rd Street and Lexington Avenue--and actually even more east into Queens, too. Therefore, E Train service should become even more reliable then it currently is. Finally, how does the Seven Extension to Secaucus increase capacity between Newark and Trenton during Peak Hour Times?!

2. Did you read my last post on the Tunnel Construction forum?
 
Since no one has said that Gateway is not a good use of taxpayer money, why are we trying to justify that point? But that does not change the point that Gateway is primarily a Regional intercity solution which also happens to help some in longer range commuters, but does not address short distance commuters too well or at all.

But E-trains service won't become any more frequent than it is. That is the critical issue. And furthermore there will not be a single new egress point to any of the subway station and not a single more turnstile installed anywhere. So running all the trains in the world as reliably as you like won't get the people traveling by them on and off the platforms any more than can be done now, which is at a saturation point. Designing railroads involves paying attention to pedestrian flow too, unless of course it is a freight railroad, in which case flow of goods is more appropriate to pay attention to.

Many LIRR commuters who want to get onto E do the transfer to E at Jamaica. So that part of the analysis is somewhat flawed.

As for the posting on tunnel construction, I don't have anything to say. We will know what the actual design is when it is presented. I tend not to waste time second guessing those who are doing the actual work regarding the nitty-gritty details. :) If I wanted to do that I'd be working in that part of the industry, which I do not.
 
1. But wouldn't you agree that CBTC will cut down on E Train delays?

2. My point on the Tunnel Construction Forum was that a "Penn Station Connector" can be built by connecting the Deep-Bore Tunnels with the current Penn Station through an extended tunnel box (beneath Hudson Yards). Which would take longer to build--Gateway or Seven Extension to Secaucus?
 
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