Service Disruption Again........

[x-press]

Disgraceful.

I started to think twice about Amtrak long-distance travel when my trip to Savannah was cancelled due to the FRA fiasco. No alternate transportation. Now, don't get me wrong, that was before the trip began, so it doesn't compare with what's described here. Now, it appears that they've extended this strategy to mid-trip incidents as well.

You want to know when the long-distance passenger train died in this country? It wasn't when Joe Vranich and Wendell Cox started their rants. It wasn't when Mineta joined in. It sure as hell wasn't when diner-lite was introduced. It was the day that Amtrak management started BELIEVING that long distance trains are just "land cruises" that don't serve any real transport need.

Probably didn't happen overnight. Tom Downs was the first I remember openly saying that the future of long distance rail lay in the "leisure market." I worked at Amtrak engineering (philadelphia) in a limited capacity in the summer of 2000, and can testify that people there barely seemed to know that trains ran west of Harrisburg. When my boss had to travel on Amtrak business from Philly-Chicago, he flew, despite the Three Rivers (rest in peace) departing a few floors below us at 30th Street. Warrington was so clueless I really don't care what he thought about ld's. One one hand, Gunn did seem to want to "do right" by the ld's. He insisted on overhauling superliners, admitted that mail/express was delaying trains (and losing money) and discontinued it. On the other hand, he sure didn't do much to promote them. When was the last time we saw an advertisement for anything outside the corridor? He said in interviews that "you'd never have any more" long distance trains, but that for now, they were "a political reality." B&O supposedly ended its service the same way: Knowing the end was near, but running a decent, clean operation until the end.

I don't blame the general public (the ones that even know ld's exist) for thinking they're obsolete. With the Vraniches, Coxes, and Minetas of the country droning endlessly, EVEN I, a diehard rail supporter, half expect to find these fictional "dirty, expensive, empty trains that no one rides" on my long distance trips (haven't found them yet). I DO blame Amtrak management for buying it, and doing their best to prove them right.

One reason I supported diner lite was that it seemed like Amtrak management was TRYING to make Amtrak ld's work. May not have agreed with the method, but ANY plan's better than no plan. Now this.

Unless I get official word that they have contingency plans to avoid me getting stuck in cornfield somewhere, consider my ld Amtrak travel stopped. I've always wanted to go cross the Atlantic on an ocean liner . . . maybe I'll start saving up for that.

JPS

 

[AmtrakFan]

Amtrak is treating passengers these days like there in a 3rd World Country, if Amtrak was smart they would set aside an X Number of Dollars for Alternative Transportation Situations like this. Amtrak Management is trying to chase People away from the Trains by doing stupid things like this.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

(quoting AmtrakFan): "Amtrak Management is trying to chase People away from the Trains by doing stupid things like this. "

BINGO. And they're probably getting kudos and slaps on the back from the White House for doing it. If they can't kill it out in the open, they'll do it with fraud, conniving, bad faith, and deceit. The freight RRs that hold the Amtrak stock should be suing the Amtrak Board members individually for violating their fiduciary duty to the Company by being White House puppets instead of looking out for the Company's best interests.

 

[AlanB]

Amtrak is treating passengers these days like there in a 3rd World Country, if Amtrak was smart they would set aside an X Number of Dollars for Alternative Transportation Situations like this.    Amtrak Management is trying to chase People away from the Trains by doing stupid things like this.

What alternative would you like? Consider that 3 trains heading north from Georgia were affected, 3 trains heading south to Georgia/Florida were affected. Then you have 79/80 also out of action. I won't even bother to mention the Auto Train, which adds even more complexity to the problem, since you not only have to deal with passengers, you have to deal with their automobiles.

So just doing some quick math, assuming that each train was carrying at least half of its capacity that's at least 800 passengers. Odds are that the trains were even closer to full capacity with the holiday, I'm betting at least 3/4's full. That brings the number closer to 1,200 passengers per day at 3/4's, it would be 1,600 if the trains were at capacity.

There is simply no place for Amtrak to find that many long haul buses on such short notice. And I can't imagine anyone wanting to ride in a school bus for over 20 hours. :blink: Especially with luggage.

Could Amtrak have handled things better, most likely. But there really isn't a whole lot that they can do to provide alternative transportation. I doubt that even Jacksonville's airport could have found seats for all of those passengers, even if Amtrak had been inclineded to buy everyone a ticket.

The shear logistics of scale defy most alternative solutions.

I do think that Amtrak should have assisted the passengers in finding hotel rooms and rebooking them on the next day's train, although I don't think that Amtrak should have paid for those hotel rooms. I could see Amtrak reimbursing passengers for transportation costs to/from those hotels though and perhaps even refunding the passenger's railfare even if they were rebooked on the next train. That would have been a nice good will gesture.

But again, providing alternative transportation for that many passengers on a moments notice would have been impossible. Even with a week's warning it would have been very very difficult.

 

[x-press]

I don't know how big Jacksonville's airport is, but I certainly think any major airport could have handled the passengers from the two trains that terminated there. They would only need to handle the passengers headed to a major hub (DC, BAL, PHI, NY). Busses could have handled the rest. And you're right, with a little local guidance, many passengers probably would have opted to just get a hotel and wait for the next available train in a day or so.

Airlines do not provide alternate transportation or accomodations in blizzards. They also don't drop passengers off in the practical equivalent of a cornfield with a refund and a "sorry 'bout that."

JPS

 

[AlanB]

I don't know how big Jacksonville's airport is, but I certainly think any major airport could have handled the passengers from the two trains that terminated there. They would only need to handle the passengers headed to a major hub (DC, BAL, PHI, NY).

I'm sure that Jacksonville Airport could have handled the passengers. But I rather doubt that the airlines flying out of Jacksonville had all that many empty seats on their planes. If they did, then they need to be rethinking how many flight they have scheduled into/out of Jacksonville.

Then consider that only just so many flights would actually be going where the passengers on the train were headed, many more flights out of Jacksonville would be heading west or north west, not north/north east like the train was.

And again, remember it's Easter week. I'm sure most of the flights out were probably close to full. Plus it's also time for the snowbirds to head north, so that adds even more load to the flights out of Florida.

Then once you got the passengers to the nearest airport, you've still got to get them from that airport to their original destination. So flying someone into PHI who wanted Trenton still needs further transportation. The logistics become nightmarish, epecially for that many passengers.

Finding alternative tranportation for what most likely was over 3,000 passengers in that 2 day window is a logistical nightmare. And again, we haven't even talked about the passengers on the Auto Train. What does Amtrak do with them? They can't fly their cars home for them. Yet they too should be provided alternative transportation too. They aren't second class citizens just because they brought their cars along.

Now Amtrak could be accused of playing favorites. I'm sorry, IMHO no matter what Amtrak did, they were bound to loose in this situation.

Again, I think that the best and only thing that Amtrak could have done would have been to try to assist in finding local hotel rooms for the pax.

And at least this time Amtrak didn't leave them sitting on the train for 16 hours.

 

[Guest_Amtrak OBS Employee]

Now Amtrak could be accused of playing favorites. I'm sorry, IMHO no matter what Amtrak did, they were bound to loose in this situation.
Again, I think that the best and only thing that Amtrak could have done would have been to try to assist in finding local hotel rooms for the pax.

And at least this time Amtrak didn't leave them sitting on the train for 16 hours.

Thank you............ Some of us were stuck in NYC for one to three days during this whole deal. Yes we get paid for it, but the disruption to our family plans, etc isn't worth all the agrivation. Amtrak normally flies us to our home crewbases, but they were unable to because THERE WERE NO FLIGHTS available because of the holiday!!! So anyone who says otherwise, I will have them know that many of us employees had our plans altered abrubtly, too! And I agree with the last statement of AlanB's post.......... at least Amtrak didn't keep the passengers in the dark about the whole deal, and leave them stuck on a train in the middle of nowhere for twenty hours!!! OBS... h34r: :blink:

 

[~guest~]

Believe it or not, this is acutally an improvement at Amtrak. Speaking as one who was stranded on a train for over a day. They could have just advanced the train, then put it into a hole and sat for a day while awaiting track repairs.

I believe the right decision was made, but where Amtrak might has erred is in how it was handled. No announcement should have been made until the train was parked in JAX, and every station agent for 50 miles was onhand to deal with the crisis. I do believe the previous poster, that making an announcement mid trip that the next station was the last , with no help after that, would start a panic, especially on the snowbird train.

It has been said many times that Amtrak (with all these damn managers already) really should have SOME contingency plans drawn up. They should not be scrambling every time there is a service disruption.

Lastly, and this is the kicker, lets see what kind of appology people recieve. They better be getting a whopper of letter from Amtrak. Won't happen, but would be interesting if they got a letter from CSX... wouldn't that help just a little bit.

Out of curiosity, how many other choke points are there along this route? Isn't this part of the push to improve rail infrastructure, ensuring a single point failure doesn't cripple the whole system?

 

[battalion51]

Well let's see, major choke points that come to mind MIA-Auburndale, JAX-Folkston, Jessup-Savannah, Selma-NYP. Some pretty sizeable choke points. Now that being said, I do believe if they had the means they would have done bustitution between say Fayetteville/Raleigh and Rocky Mount. An inconvienence, yes, but you still get from point A to point B. However, with a low number of buses available for such a task on this particular weekend, its not feasible. Also note, Amtrak did return passengers to their origin to seek alternate transportation or wait out the delay. So even though there might not have been planes at JAX, there's still MCO, TPA, PBI, FLL, and MIA along this route.

As far as having contingency plans drawn up, these managers have done this sort of thing enough, they know who to call, and how to get buses when they need them. However, it would be rediculous to suggest they should have buses ready anywhere along the route, ready to roll at any time. They might as well be a bus company if that's the case. 360 days or more out of the year, there are no major issues to speak of, it's those other days when the **** hits the fan. It should also be noted, that airlines and bus companies shut down many times when Amtrak is still rolling (mostly weather related). No mode of transportation is flawless, and these guys are doing the best they can. It just seems unfortunate that when the **** hits the fan, it effects 4 routes.

 

[jphjaxfl]

It would seem like Amtrak should have alternative routings for potential problems of this type. In the early days of Amtrak before the major railroad consolidation, there was usually a re-route of the train over what was sometimes freight only trackage. There was usually a delay caused by the re-route but the trains reached their final destination. Now that the large freight railroads have so much clout, they are not willing to allow re-routes because they disrupt their freight service. As an Amtrak traveler it was nice to experience travel on routes that had not had passenger trains in years. The Floridian had 4-5 longer term re-routes between Chicago and Nashville between 1972 and 1975. Unfortunately Amtrak does not want to take such initiatives now.

 

[x-press]

Amtrak normally flies us to our home crewbases, but they were unable to because THERE WERE NO FLIGHTS available because of the holiday!!!

Look, anyone who thinks Amtrak should have gotten every single passenger transportation to every single destination on the line is living in a fantasy world. I certainly don't think that's reasonable. It IS reasonable to expect Amtrak personel in Jacksonville to give options.

1) Refund (which they apparently did)

2) Offer return to point of origin (which they apparently did)

3) Hotel (at LEAST give information, hopefully pay for)

4) Transportation to airport (EVENTUALLY there would have been a flight home for many passengers who were in enough of a hurry)

5) Transportation to bus station

Before you say these suggestions are so outlandish, isn't this what has been done at Chicago over the years for missed connections? Why not here?

JPS

 

[MrFSS]

A newstory on all this can be found here. Always interesting to see what the press has to say.

 

[Guest_Amtrak OBS Employee]

Amtrak normally flies us to our home crewbases, but they were unable to because THERE WERE NO FLIGHTS available because of the holiday!!!

Look, anyone who thinks Amtrak should have gotten every single passenger transportation to every single destination on the line is living in a fantasy world. I certainly don't think that's reasonable. It IS reasonable to expect Amtrak personel in Jacksonville to give options.

1) Refund (which they apparently did)

2) Offer return to point of origin (which they apparently did)

3) Hotel (at LEAST give information, hopefully pay for)

4) Transportation to airport (EVENTUALLY there would have been a flight home for many passengers who were in enough of a hurry)

5) Transportation to bus station

Before you say these suggestions are so outlandish, isn't this what has been done at Chicago over the years for missed connections? Why not here?

JPS

Just to clarify, this isn't a complaint. It is a statement of the normal procedure when we in on board services suffer service disruptions. But the holiday made it impossible to follow the norm. I couldn't agree with you more than I already do with your posting!!! OBS... :lol: B)

 

[Boxcar]

What alternative would you like? Consider that 3 trains heading north from Georgia were affected, 3 trains heading south to Georgia/Florida were affected. Then you have 79/80 also out of action. I won't even bother to mention the Auto Train, which adds even more complexity to the problem, since you not only have to deal with passengers, you have to deal with their automobiles.
So just doing some quick math, assuming that each train was carrying at least half of its capacity that's at least 800 passengers. Odds are that the trains were even closer to full capacity with the holiday, I'm betting at least 3/4's full. That brings the number closer to 1,200 passengers per day at 3/4's, it would be 1,600 if the trains were at capacity.  

There is simply no place for Amtrak to find that many long haul buses on such short notice. And I can't imagine anyone wanting to ride in a school bus for over 20 hours.  Especially with luggage.  

Could Amtrak have handled things better, most likely. But there really isn't a whole lot that they can do to provide alternative transportation. I doubt that even Jacksonville's airport could have found seats for all of those passengers, even if Amtrak had been inclineded to buy everyone a ticket.

The shear logistics of scale defy most alternative solutions.

I do think that Amtrak should have assisted the passengers in finding hotel rooms and rebooking them on the next day's train, although I don't think that Amtrak should have paid for those hotel rooms. I could see Amtrak reimbursing passengers for transportation costs to/from those hotels though and perhaps even refunding the passenger's railfare even if they were rebooked on the next train. That would have been a nice good will gesture.

But again, providing alternative transportation for that many passengers on a moments notice would have been impossible. Even with a week's warning it would have been very very difficult.

Very Good points Allen......This was simply a no win situation for everyone.

Too what degree is Amtrak responsible other than to return the passengers to the point of origin and refund the fare if so requested.

This isn't so very different than when airlines cancel flights.

On 9/11/2001, I was boarding a flight in Norfolk, Va which of course was cancelled. American airlines didn't find me alternate transportation or find and pay for a hotel room for several days. Nor did they provide and pay for tranportation back to my daughters home in Virginia Beach, Va.

It wasn't American Airlines fault that they couldn't fulfill their service agreement too me just as it wasn't Amtrak's fault the tracks were closed and prevented their service agreement from being fulfilled.

Would I be mad as hell? Probably So. Could I use reason and understand?

I hope so. Would I be so very happy that an unsafe condition was found and repaired before they had to remove me from my sleeper with a can opener? DAMN Straight....

 

[AlanB]

1) Refund (which they apparently did)2) Offer return to point of origin (which they apparently did)

3) Hotel (at LEAST give information, hopefully pay for)

4) Transportation to airport (EVENTUALLY there would have been a flight home for many passengers who were in enough of a hurry)

5) Transportation to bus station

Before you say these suggestions are so outlandish, isn't this what has been done at Chicago over the years for missed connections? Why not here?

JPS

I suspect a little bit of it has to do with the fact that the Easter Holiday was so close. However, as I mentioned above, the biggest reason comes right back to the scale of the problem.

When one train misses a connection in Chicago, Amtrak at most has maybe 50 to 75 passengers to deal with who have missed a connection. Most of the potential 200 to 300 people onboard a train that is too late to connect in Chicago, are not connecting to another Amtrak train.

Whereas in this case, the newspaper claims that there were over 2,000 passengers on those various affected trains. I had guessed that it was around 1,200 each day, which comes close to that number. And that many passengers is simply overwhelming number to deal with, especially when it comes to arranging alternative transportation.

 

[AlanB]

It would seem like Amtrak should have alternative routings for potential problems of this type. In the early days of Amtrak before the major railroad consolidation, there was usually a re-route of the train over what was sometimes freight only trackage. There was usually a delay caused by the re-route but the trains reached their final destination. Now that the large freight railroads have so much clout, they are not willing to allow re-routes because they disrupt their freight service. As an Amtrak traveler it was nice to experience travel on routes that had not had passenger trains in years. The Floridian had 4-5 longer term re-routes between Chicago and Nashville between 1972 and 1975. Unfortunately Amtrak does not want to take such initiatives now.

It's not just clout that prevent rerouting of Amtrak trains. As the RR industry has consolidated from many companies to the 5 or 6 major players that we have today, something else has happened. That it many of the alternative tracks have been ripped up.

Then consider that of course the freight company is already using those alternative tracks for normal freight runs and they now want to reroute their stalled freight trains via that same alternative. That most likely means that the alternative routes are moving at a crawl thanks to overwhelming congestion.

Finally factor in the fact that Amtrak crews are not qualified over many of those alternative routes. That means that the host RR has to find pilot crews to assist Amtrak over that route. Furthermore, Amtrak has to find extra crews to work the train, since any reroute will take longer than the normal route and therfore crews will outlaw. Amtrak doesn't just have crews sitting around to throw into the frey. For that matter, the host RR doesn't exactly have extra crews sitting around either to help pilot Amtrak. Since the host RR is busy rerouting freight and encountering delays due to congestion, they are burning up their spare crews very quickly.

So an alternative routing isn't as easy as it once was, and in many cases simply isn't a practical.

 

[GG-1]

Aloha

I don't want to debate or rehash what was already said but I have a question, comment or ? Has our American RailRoad system deteriated so bad we cannot get around a bridge in need of service and repair?

Mahalo

 

[gswager]

No, I don't think so. I've almost never heard of bridge falling down when train passed over, except the Amtrak plummeted into the river when the barge hit the bridge.

 

[battalion51]

I personally think that the article written by the Sentinel was very well done. It didn't portray Amtrak in a negative light, it provided facts. It should be noted that Amtrak did offer hotel discounts, and did allow AT passengers to stay on the consist overnight. All in all I think they handled this one the best they could.

 

[x-press]

I personally think that the article written by the Sentinel was very well done. It didn't portray Amtrak in a negative light, it provided facts. It should be noted that Amtrak did offer hotel discounts, and did allow AT passengers to stay on the consist overnight. All in all I think they handled this one the best they could.

Well, I agree that they handled the Auto Train passengers the best they could, but shoudn't those efforts have been extended to other passengers as well? The hotel discounts were probably at the whim of local establishments, but I still say that at least more information, and preferably more alternatives, should have been provided.

 

[Trogdor]

Aloha
I don't want to debate or rehash what was already said but I have a question, comment or ? Has our American RailRoad system deteriated so bad we cannot get around a bridge in need of service and repair?

Mahalo

In some cases, sadly, yes.

 

[capltd29]

I think CSX is allergic to maintenance....anyone ever taken The Meteor, Palmetto, or Auto Train through NC and SC?? Yeah, its not exactly a ride on air if you know what im saying. Oh thats right, we'll delay YOU, because we dont care to maintain our tracks enough to with stand warm weather....cough cough...Crescent City, FL. Why is it that no other RR seems to have to do this.

Oh...lets do work then raise this speed restriction...cough cough...Kensington.

Or we could just use state money to repair our switches because we'd rather Learjet our execs around with expensive china and Crystal...

If Im not mistaken, I believe that the Buckingham Branch had to replace the CSX diamond at Doswell, VA...I may be wrong on this though.

Yeah, thats how high I hold CSX....we all know what CSX is an Acronym for...Chicken Sh*t Xpress...

Whew...done venting now