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Alan- you are comparing apples and oranges, (and missing the point), when you compare unionized workers to non-unionized workers so I won't even go down that road. What I am trying to get across regarding pay is the 'industry standard'. The commuter operations move people- so does Amtrak. The commuter roads get massive subsidies, so some might argue, does Amtrak. Why do Amtrak personnel get paid on average much less. Collective bargaining is just that. Bargaining collectively to gain an outcome desired by the majority of workers. I've been in two different unions and believe me when I say I know they do not always act in the best interest of the workers they are supposed to represent. THAT is what I meant when I refered to the 'good and bad' of organized labor. However, one doesn't have to look too far to see that the errosion of the middle class in this country is at least in PARTLY due to the emasculation of the unionized work force. Legislation upon legislation has been passed to strip collective bargaining of its strength and the effect is appearant. CEOs with MASSIVE benefits packages and workers who get their pensions stolen, (see UAL). In Europe the average CEO makes about 50 times what the average worker makes. In the United States it has risen to almost 300 TIMES. I mean how many millions are enough for one person? Just one of those millions could be used to pay that health care or save 25 jobs paying $40,000. Nope, close the plant, build it, make it and even design it elsewhere so I can have my 25 instead of 24 million. You know, I don't really have a problem with what the brass makes, I really don't. I just ask that they SHARE! After all I or somebody like me helped those guys qualify for those millions. So when they make their millions let me make my thousands. Don't ask for more back from me to pad YOUR paycheck. If its the 'industry standard' to pay CEOs xxx# of millions of dollars then why isn't it the industry standard to pay engine and train crews at Amtrak? It unfortunately has become a common misconcepiton in the United States that unions have outlived their usefulness, cost too much and cause more problems then they are worth. That is sad, truly sad. What do we have now? 70-80 hour work weeks becomming the norm? Paying for our own health care? Less and less vacation? Give back your pension? We are going backward in this county and that attitude will come home to roost one day.
Mark,

With all respect, I actually think that it is you who missed the point of my statement. First, I never actually said whether the workers with no raise were union or not, although one can probably guess that they weren't based upon the fact that they got no raises. However, my response that involved them had nothing to do with union vs. non-union. My point in bringing them into the discusion was simply in response to your statement that COLA is not a raise. Whether the workers in my example are union or not, has no bearing on the fact that they would be jealous of even the small increases that Amtrak workers have gotten, since they have gotten zero.

My point had nothing to do with whether Amtrak workers are on parity with anyone, much less non-union workers. Like it or not, the definition of a raise is "an increase in one's salary, no matter how large or small it might be." I'm not suggesting that it's a fair raise, just that it is a raise. If you go back through older posts you'll find many times my rising to the defense of the onboard workers when people have made statements about them making too much, or getting too much in tips. Maybe less so for short regional trains, but the life of an onboard crew member for an LD train is not an easy life, and I certainly will never tell anyone that they get paid too much at present.

And just for the record, I never said anything about them having the same contract in place, that came from someone else.

Next, I don't disagree that CEO salaries have indeed gotten out of hand in this country, and I agree that we all may well pay the price for it one day.

However the MTA strike went I admired them for doing it when it hurt most, at the holidays if I recall. Our newscasters here showed angry passenger after angry passenger clamoring to fire the workers because their life schedules were messed up for a little while. That is collective bargaining at its finest. I'd be willing to be that those same folks wouldn't be complaining if THEY worked at MTA and that's the point: it no longer matters how that union was formed or how those people got to be working there. What matters is that they felt they were getting a raw deal and they did something about it. Not everybody gets to be in charge, somebody has to DO the work. Non-unionized workers have only one choice- there's the door.
It wouldn't have mattered if they did it during the holidays or not, it still would have hurt. Only problem is that it was the union and its workers that got hurt. It was the other unionized employees working in NY that got hurt. It was the average non-union workers who got hurt. It was the unionized firefighter who almost lost his life because he was forced to ride his bike to work and got run over by a bus hired to get workers to their job. In fact his family is suing the Transit Union. It was the patient in the hospital that almost lost his life, because the doctor couldn't get to the hospital.

The people who make the decisions about things, they didn't get hurt. Most didn't even bat an eyelash, sadly.

And guess what, that strike didn't change anything. They went back to work without a contract! It was days later that an agreement was finally reached, an agreement that the membership then rejected. And because of that they lost even more money! Hardly a prime example of collective barganing at its best, IMHO. I've certainly seen many better examples. Like the health care workers union here in NYC a few years back.

They went months past the end of their contracts, before they struck. The transit workers didn't go one day past the end of their contract. And guess what, if you are correct that it was good for them to pick the holiday, then they just blew their biggest barganing chip. The new contract no longer expires before Christmas. They'll never be able to do that again. So they blew that chip, and they got a contract that is worse than the last offer they had received from the MTA, prior to the strike. Each worker was docked 6 days pay, and the union was fined millions. If it's every forced to pay in full, something that may still happen, it may well be bankrupted. Again, I'm sorry, but hardly a prime example of collective barganing at its best. The health care workers on the other hand, actually did get much of what they were looking for, IIRC.

And when the one hothead union VP stood in front of a TV news camera and told everyone that they picked the holidays, it proceeded to **** off many, many other unionized workers. So much for brotherhood. I won't say that all support vanished, but there were many, many unionized workers who were quite mad at the transit worker's union for ruining their Christmas.

So when I say going eight years without a contract is a problem, believe me it is a problem: for the workers, the management and passengers who prefer to use Amtrak. Stating that they got a raise through COLAs makes you sound like many a manager I know. Perhaps the guy who sends out the annual rap sheet telling the workers how much they REALLY cost when health care and pensions are factored in while making six figures AND fueling his personal car at the company-vehicle gas pump. Like I posted previously, we have enough managers, lawers and accountants. Somebody needs to get out and lead- that is get up and do something. I hope AK at Amtrak is up to the challenge.
I've never said that going 8 years without a new contract isn't a problem. I think that it is a huge problem. While there are some who should probably be singled out and fired first, I do believe that most of the workers at Amtrak are deserving of better than they are getting and have gotten for the past 8 years. But again, back to my point above, any raise is better than getting absolutely nothing. I have never argued that it's a fair raise. It's not! I'm well aware that Amtrak's workers are way behind the 8 ball on things, when compared to comparable crafts elsewhere. And that's part of the problem, that so many of the crafts aren't comparable to elsewhere, so people try to compare them to things that are similar at least, and end up comparing apples to oranges.

Are Amtrak workers underpaid? Yes. Do they deserve some serious barganing from Amtrak? Yes. Do they deserve a new contract? Yes. Did they get a raise in the last 8 years? Yes.
 
Are Amtrak workers underpaid? Yes. Do they deserve some serious barganing from Amtrak? Yes. Do they deserve a new contract? Yes. Did they get a raise in the last 8 years? Yes.
Why didn't you just say so- I pehaps misread your message as a slight to union workers. You could have saved me a lot of soap-box typing. What set me off was the, I'm paraphrasing here, 'a raise is a raise' talk, because when you get down to it some raises are an insult and to most Union workers those COLA raises are just that. I have seen from above and I have seen from below, in most cases BOTH sides could be a bit, (sarcasm), more flexible. Unfortunately it seems to be more often than not, Management is not willing to come to the table in a timely fashion, (which is insulting), or they come with unbelieveablely naive contracts that, (are very insulting), stink of purposefully delaying negotiations. Unions on the other hand are truly stuck in the past. Any and every change is a perceived threat. THAT has paralyzed forward thinking. Nobody seems to think about where they want to be in 20 years let alone 10 and the Unions are losing. Unions are certainly NOT perfect but I feel they still have a time and a place in the US. I think Amtrak's labor folks are REALLY in a bind due to the nature of Amtrak's funding situation. My intention was to hopefully initiate some inventive solutions to that bind because they do not, from my standpoint, enjoy the advantages of their national brothers and sisters or they would have had new contracts at least five, if not eight, years ago.

Respectfully,

Mark
 
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Hey if you don't want the insult, send me your COLA, I'll GLADLY take it, and I PROMISE I won't be insulted.
Ha, ha, ha- whatever man. Is that all you have? If you don't mind the adults are conversing.
 
Hard to tell by reading it. Looked a lot more like "If you won't play by my rules, I'm going to pick up my toys and go HOME!" All too much of the labor-management situations seem to end up with the minds made up in concrete on both sides and nobody being the least bit interested in listening to the other side. Kind of like your knee-jerk reaction to Alan's postings which changed when you actually went back and READ what he posted. Things would be a lot easier to deal with if the people involved didn't go around with a 150 lb. chip on their shoulders.
 
Hard to tell by reading it. Looked a lot more like "If you won't play by my rules, I'm going to pick up my toys and go HOME!" All too much of the labor-management situations seem to end up with the minds made up in concrete on both sides and nobody being the least bit interested in listening to the other side. Kind of like your knee-jerk reaction to Alan's postings which changed when you actually went back and READ what he posted. Things would be a lot easier to deal with if the people involved didn't go around with a 150 lb. chip on their shoulders.
OK, by that same token, if you went back and READ what I actually wrote you'd see that I mentioned several times, (and even attempted to provide an example or two), that management AND unions could be doing a much better job working out their differences than they presently are. I admit that my first response was a knee jerk reaction but if you look around a bit and see how labor is treated, by both the companies they work for and the, (in many cases), misinformed public you might gain a better understanding as to why some people go around with 150 lb. chips on their shoulders. Like I've said before, not everybody gets to be the CEO, the boss or manager. Some people, (less and less in the US), actually have to get out there and make things move, work, perform, etc. Why is there such a misconception that union workers are lazy and overpaid? A contract that expired is a contract that is over, yet ALL railroad workers are expected, (more or less by law), to keep on working until a new contract is implemented. Come on- 2, 3 or 8 years after the expiration? Amtrak workers are already two contracts behind and are working on being three, (assuming a standard four year contract). This is not taking my ball and going home or whatever. This is about doing the honest thing and taking care of the workers who get the job done. You know, the guys who helped implement the fantasys of management, ('diner lite', SDS or whatever they're calling it this week). The guys and gals who rebuild and rebuild the same equipment over and over. The guy in the who has to deal with that super hostile passenger who missed a connection or the Conductor who has to deal with the occasional drunk passenger or sometimes both in the same trip. Delaying negotiations simply conveys the message that management does not care about you. I've never seen, read or heard an Amtrak president go to congress and say, 'we need more money our people have not had a significant raise in years', (again so there is no misunderstanding, I'm refering to the industry standard). One good contract would go a LONG way in helping labor-management issues at any company not just Amtrak.

My intent here was to take a closer look at Amtrak's labor relation issues, (of which I know very little about aside from some of the unions represented there), not to turn this into a debate about the goods and bads of unions in general.
 
I am not without sympathy for the rank-and-file workers who are the ones actually doing the work, running the trains. Most of us on this board feel the same way. We have been on board enough trains, and have spent enough time actually sitting down and talking with those on-board service workers, conductors, etc, and probably even have some of those folks that we correspond with by email or phone (I certainly do), to have some understanding of the issues. And I am entirely in agreement that the compensation to most high-management types here in the U.S. is completely obscene and irrationally off-the-scale.

But YOU need to realize and acknowledge that, notwithstanding the issues of very low pay raises for a number of years, and lousy support (if not outright interference) from management, and low morale from that plus not really knowing from year to year whether Congress is going to appropriate enough money to even maintain your jobs at their current levels, there ARE a LOT of folks out here in the U.S., including some on this board, that are in a LOT worse shape financially, from what has been happening in this country over the past several years, who would DEARLY LOVE to even have a COLA, and would NOT verbally spit on it, as you have done.

When your posts consistently indicate the presence of that 150 lb chip on your shoulder, most folks are going to discount the content of those posts, which means that if the intent of the posts is to do something other than just achieve the cathartic value of publicly venting your frustration, it isn't going to work.

When you say things like

However the MTA strike went I admired them for doing it when it hurt most, at the holidays if I recall. Our newscasters here showed angry passenger after angry passenger clamoring to fire the workers because their life schedules were messed up for a little while. That is collective bargaining at its finest.
, that tells the rest of us that you don't give a flying (expletive deleted) about anything but yourself, you don't care what havoc you wreak on anyone else's life or how much pain you cause, as long as YOU get what YOU want. Since some of us on this board were probably included in that mass of (expletive deleted) passengers, your coming here and saying that was like stabbing somebody and then standing there and asking that person to complement you on your handiwork. We, as passengers, are ultimately the raison d'etre for the existence of your job if you are a passenger-train employee. What I quoted from your post basically said you don't give a flying (expletive deleted) about us or about what happens to us. But you expect us to sympathize and support your objectives AND your intended means to achieve them. It doesn't work that way.
 
I am not without sympathy for the rank-and-file workers who are the ones actually doing the work, running the trains. Most of us on this board feel the same way. We have been on board enough trains, and have spent enough time actually sitting down and talking with those on-board service workers, conductors, etc, and probably even have some of those folks that we correspond with by email or phone (I certainly do), to have some understanding of the issues. And I am entirely in agreement that the compensation to most high-management types here in the U.S. is completely obscene and irrationally off-the-scale. But YOU need to realize and acknowledge that, notwithstanding the issues of very low pay raises for a number of years, and lousy support (if not outright interference) from management, and low morale from that plus not really knowing from year to year whether Congress is going to appropriate enough money to even maintain your jobs at their current levels, there ARE a LOT of folks out here in the U.S., including some on this board, that are in a LOT worse shape financially, from what has been happening in this country over the past several years, who would DEARLY LOVE to even have a COLA, and would NOT verbally spit on it, as you have done.

When your posts consistently indicate the presence of that 150 lb chip on your shoulder, most folks are going to discount the content of those posts, which means that if the intent of the posts is to do something other than just achieve the cathartic value of publicly venting your frustration, it isn't going to work.

When you say things like

However the MTA strike went I admired them for doing it when it hurt most, at the holidays if I recall. Our newscasters here showed angry passenger after angry passenger clamoring to fire the workers because their life schedules were messed up for a little while. That is collective bargaining at its finest.
, that tells the rest of us that you don't give a flying (expletive deleted) about anything but yourself, you don't care what havoc you wreak on anyone else's life or how much pain you cause, as long as YOU get what YOU want. Since some of us on this board were probably included in that mass of (expletive deleted) passengers, your coming here and saying that was like stabbing somebody and then standing there and asking that person to complement you on your handiwork. We, as passengers, are ultimately the raison d'etre for the existence of your job if you are a passenger-train employee. What I quoted from your post basically said you don't give a flying (expletive deleted) about us or about what happens to us. But you expect us to sympathize and support your objectives AND your intended means to achieve them. It doesn't work that way.

Not at all, not at all. Now whose walking with the 150 lb chip? I'm begining to think this discussion is pointless but I'll try one more time. I'm not here to attack anybody and if anybody has been offended by my comments I'm sorry. I'm quite certain I've logged just as many Amtrak miles as the next member of this website. We're ALL trying to make a decent living. I'm not trying to invoke support, air dirty laundry, gripe, complain or whatever. My statemets are my own opinion and you know what they say about opinions. There are two sides to every story. What I said about the MTA strike, (of which I obviously know little about), was meant to invoke thought and gain knowledge. What would you have done if you were in their shoes? How else should they negotiate? You attack my views but provide no solutions. I want to know how is the Amtrak contract issue going to be resolved? Strikes, when they rarely do happen nowadays, seldom last very long and are a desperate last resort measure. Nobody really wins during a strike. The workers don't get paid, the public doesn't get service and the company loses money but what else have they got? How long should they wait? Years? I don't know how long the MTA strike lasted but I'm sure it wasn't longer than a week at best. I don't know why they went on strike but I can guess. Unions just don't go on strike because they feel like it, (like the public generally thinks). Nobody gets paid while striking but sometimes a statement must be made and unfortunately the public got hurt during this last one and from what Alan said the workers didn't do all that well anyway. I didn't stab anybody and neither did the MTA. They did what the thought was right and I'd bet that cola you'd do the same if you were them. If you feel sympathy for Amtrak workers then why don't you feel the same way for the MTA folks? What's the difference?

On the railroad you cannot work at piece rate or you'd have crews flying around the yards trying to move the most cars and probably killing each other in the process. So how do you measure whose good or better than the next guy? You can't, not really, so how do you decide who gets raises- collective bargaining, everybody wins and/or everybody loses. Have you ever worked in a closed union shop? Have you ever worked an extra board? I mean before cell phones. Have you ever stood in 35 degree weather, at night, in the rain, making cuts in a muddy, freezing, freight yard after an 8 hour turn? Worked weekends for the last 10 years or more while your spouse hasn't? Fallen asleep at a red light on the way home after working 8 on 8 off for 4 or more days in a row? Suffer the indignity of a random drug test at three in the morning? Sounds like fun doesn't it? If yes then you must be a VERY strong individual deserving, at the very least, a contract in a timely fashion. If not, then you know not from where I speak and please don't tell me I chose my profession or made my own bed because following that logic so has everybody else!

However, like I tried to say in my last, I did not mean this to turn into a union/non-union arguement. You purposely poked me with you cola statement and are now trying to garner sympathy for your views and chew me out/make me feel bad for mine. I like railfans and consider myself to be one, (or I wouldn't be here), but too many of them have never worked one minute in a freight yard under real conditions and constantly fail to see the reality of the situations the workers have to deal with.

Amtrak workers don't, (again), in my opinion have the same options as their freight brothers and sisters so I like to know how their representatives plan to work that out. How would you solve the eight year/no contract problem? Tell me what would you do if you were in charge?
 
I'm want to ask everyone to please take a deep breath and dial things back just a bit. :) Discussion is fine, but I'm afraid that we're starting to head in a dangerous direction.
 
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I am not without sympathy for the rank-and-file workers who are the ones actually doing the work, running the trains. Most of us on this board feel the same way. We have been on board enough trains, and have spent enough time actually sitting down and talking with those on-board service workers, conductors, etc, and probably even have some of those folks that we correspond with by email or phone (I certainly do), to have some understanding of the issues. And I am entirely in agreement that the compensation to most high-management types here in the U.S. is completely obscene and irrationally off-the-scale. But YOU need to realize and acknowledge that, notwithstanding the issues of very low pay raises for a number of years, and lousy support (if not outright interference) from management, and low morale from that plus not really knowing from year to year whether Congress is going to appropriate enough money to even maintain your jobs at their current levels, there ARE a LOT of folks out here in the U.S., including some on this board, that are in a LOT worse shape financially, from what has been happening in this country over the past several years, who would DEARLY LOVE to even have a COLA, and would NOT verbally spit on it, as you have done.

When your posts consistently indicate the presence of that 150 lb chip on your shoulder, most folks are going to discount the content of those posts, which means that if the intent of the posts is to do something other than just achieve the cathartic value of publicly venting your frustration, it isn't going to work.

When you say things like

However the MTA strike went I admired them for doing it when it hurt most, at the holidays if I recall. Our newscasters here showed angry passenger after angry passenger clamoring to fire the workers because their life schedules were messed up for a little while. That is collective bargaining at its finest.
, that tells the rest of us that you don't give a flying (expletive deleted) about anything but yourself, you don't care what havoc you wreak on anyone else's life or how much pain you cause, as long as YOU get what YOU want. Since some of us on this board were probably included in that mass of (expletive deleted) passengers, your coming here and saying that was like stabbing somebody and then standing there and asking that person to complement you on your handiwork. We, as passengers, are ultimately the raison d'etre for the existence of your job if you are a passenger-train employee. What I quoted from your post basically said you don't give a flying (expletive deleted) about us or about what happens to us. But you expect us to sympathize and support your objectives AND your intended means to achieve them. It doesn't work that way.
I have to agree with Mark on this being a Railroader myself we get treated like crap they try to fire you when your sick and have documents to prove it cant take a day off when you want it such as PLD people need to understand that the Railroads are a diffrent set up then any other job.
 
I'm going to try to respond to a few of your questions here Mark, and review the strike. Please let me state for the record though, that I'm doing some of this from memory, as many stories are now either gone or are buried in archives that require my purchasing them, which is something that I'm not inclined to do. I hate the gross over-charging that most newspaper sites seem inclined to collect for a story; $4.95 or more for one story, when you could have brought the entire week's newspaper for the same price. And as a computer consultant, I can assure you that it doesn't cost anywhere near that amount for them to archive the story on a hard disk.

But first, let me quickly say that I really don’t have a clue as to how Amtrak’s workers will be able to deal with the no contract problem, if Alex Kummant doesn’t live up to his promise to actually try to seriously get a contract. I am almost positive that workers will have to make some rules concessions to get one, like the bit about a sleeping car attendant being unable to work in the dining car, and I hope that the unions will allow themselves to be a bit flexible with things. I also hate to say it, but I do expect that they may have to accept some health contributions. But hopefully Amtrak will also negotiate in good faith, and really try to find the workers a contract that is fair, rewarding them with decent raises and perhaps a few extras for some of the concessions that again, I’m sure the unions will have to make.

If neither side budges, then I don’t know what they do. Frankly the best recourse is probably going to be trying to bring pressure to bear on Congress, and probably get the public at large involved. How they do that, I have no idea. But I don’t think that a strike is going to win the battle and it could well backfire into a loss of Amtrak in total, were a strike to last for very long, especially with regard to the long distance services.

State sponsored short hauls will probably get contracted out, assuming that they can get the equipment from Amtrak. Regarding the NEC, it’s really hard to say what could happen there, but I wouldn’t bet against an attempt at privatization. And that sadly I suspect would only hurt the public at large, and the union members who work for Amtrak.

Now, back to your questions and the MTA strike. I’m going to try to keep this organized, but I suspect that no matter what I do, I’ll end up bouncing around a bit.

The union contract expired on December 15th. IIRC, contract talks started in earnest in mid-October. Prior to that point, I don’t believe that there were any serious talks and I don’t think that either side really wanted any, although that later part is just my take on things. From October right up to December 15th, there were serious talks, although many of those talks did not involve the head honchos. Those talks, at least in the media, in typical fashion seemed to have more finger pointing and outrageous demands from both sides.

By the time we got to the crunch period, with all night talks and such, the major differences seemed to be:

Wages of course.

MTA wanted 2 year contract, union 3 years.

MTA wanted retirement age moved to 62 for new hires only, union no change for anyone from the current age 55 assuming that the worker has 25 years of service. (Note: Many workers, who were interviewed in the days leading up to the strike, actually believed that this applied to all workers. Whether it was deliberate or not I can’t say, but the union was definitely not making it clear that this change did not affect anyone currently employed. There was also a counter proposal by the MTA that would have kept the same retirement age, but required the new hires to pay a bit more money into the pension program than the current workers were paying.)

IIRC, the first two were finally worked out, leaving only the third.

Roger went on record publicly as stating that the main reason for declaring the strike was that last point. Yet the union made no counter proposal to the MTA’s two differing offers that they claimed were unacceptable, and proceeded out on the strike even though not one person walking the picket line would have been affected by the MTA’s proposals, and with the bulk of the membership believing that it would affect them personally. One reporter questioned some 200 workers IIRC, and about 95% of them believed that they were on strike because they personally would be affected by the pension issue.

The deadline of 12:01 AM December 16th, when the contract actually expired, came and went with no strike because of the ongoing serious negotiations. On the 19th, two small bus companies that had just been merged into the MTA’s control were struck under orders from the union board. Four days later, on December 20th is when the main strike actually started. This despite an order from a judge that forbade the strike and laid out in advance what the punishment would be. They didn’t just violate the law by walking out; they were now in contempt of court.

Now the following is conjecture on my part, based in part upon the news that was coming out at this time. I personally believe that the union President Roger Toussaint called the strike for the following reasons. One was without a doubt lack of progress on the sticking points. However, Roger was under immense pressure from a few union VP’s whom I personally believe want Roger out so that they can gain power. Roger has been around now for many years.

They are the ones that I and many others have referred to as the hot heads. They seem less willing to really negotiate and concede anything. And as we all know in today’s world, there must be some give and take from both sides. Neither can ever get everything that they want if an agreement is to be reached, especially when dealing with an entity that isn’t in a profit making role.

One of those hot heads was the one that I mentioned really turned the public against him and the union with his comment, after Roger ordered the workers back to work, that they had picked the date for the strike to ruin Christmas.

So back to my thoughts on the origin of the strike, after 4 days of no serious progress, pressure for a strike, pressure from those opposing Roger; Roger gave in and got at least one or two of his supporting VP’s to vote with him this time joining those wanting the strike. And so the Transit strike of 2005 was on.

There were also a few rumors running around within the union leadership that Roger had come back with the last MTA offer and left out a few points, which lead to those VP’s voting for the strike. Again, I stress that this was reported as a rumor, and I don’t recall any VP actually going on the record to state that Roger had withheld info.

Now back to some facts, in NY State there is a law called the Taylor Law. It prohibits public employees from striking for any reason. It also carries with it rules whereby either side can declare an impasse, the Governor I believe can declare an impasse, and perhaps even a judge, and send the dispute to binding arbitration. The one advantage of the Taylor Law is that clause, as unlike the Amtrak situation, the employees could have by now declared an impasse and arbitrators would have forced a contract on both sides.

So while, in theory, the ability to strike is taken away from the union, management can’t just keep blowing the union off either. Neither side really likes to go to arbitration, because they loose control over the negotiations, but at least there is some recourse that will get a contract done.

Let me also interject two other things here, one the international TWU ordered the local not to strike. Two, several unions from Metro North at the time of the strike, had been working without a contract for close to two years already. And they hadn’t yet struck Metro North, owned and operated by the same MTA that runs the subways.

That fact is one thing that angered me personally with the TWU’s strike, is the fact that they didn’t really try. Working for one whole year without a resolution is definitely trying, very hard in fact. I’d have been happy if the TWU had given the people of NY 3 to 6 months, before walking.

Not quite 3 days after starting the main strike, 60 hours to be exact, faced with fines against the Union that doubled each day of the strike, a court order for Roger and the other VP’s to appear in court where they most likely would have been arrested and jailed, as well as rumors that the judge was about to start fining the individual workers $25,000 per day (and to do that he was planning to freeze the worker’s bank accounts); coupled with the arrival of three State mediators, Roger ended the strike despite the opposition from those who had forced the strike in the first place.

It should also be noted that each worker who did strike, was already being punished via the judge’s earlier order and the Taylor Law that requires one day’s pay for each day that they walked a picket line. So for each day that they were out, they lost 2 two day’s pay, one because they didn’t get paid for not working and one day as punishment; and it was indeed deducted from their pay checks. By the way, over 1,000 workers did actually show up for work on the first day of the strike, and the numbers went up each day after that.

In any event, everyone went back to work and negotiations resumed. About a week later on December 28th, is when the MTA and Union leadership finally agreed on a contract with the help of the mediators. Again going in part from memory and in part from what I can still find on the net, here’s how things came down.

The union won on the pension plan. However, in return they now had to contribute 1.5% of their health costs, the give back for winning on the pension idea. So while they saved the earlier retirement date for future workers, both present and future workers now have to contribute to health care. The final raises remained the same as before the strike, as did almost everything else.

However, in the final analysis, every worker who did actually go on strike lost money for the first year of the new contract. Between the 6 days of lost pay, plus the contribution for health care, their total take home pay for that first year went down from the prior year’s total, despite a 3% raise in that first year. Those that did remain on the job, or at least went back early, did actually increase their take home for that year.

This is the contract that the workers voted down by 7 votes, 11,234 to 11,227.

Just over a year later, 2 days after the old contract had expired December 17th and after things went to arbitration, the arbitrator’s ruled that the contract voted down would by and large be the new contract. There was one change that was made by them I believe, that being that the new contract would now expire on January 16th, forever removing the threat of another Christmas strike. Or at least it makes it much harder and more painful for the union to ever do that again.

A few other things that fell out of this are:

Roger went to jail in April for 10 days for defying the judge’s order, but they were able to keep the rest of the union leadership out of jail. IRRC, Roger’s sentence was commuted after he had served about 5 days.

Each union officer was fined various amounts.

The union fines were reduced to $2.5 Million dollars, an amount that will still almost bankrupt the local. They are appealing this and I haven’t heard if that appeal has been heard yet or not.

The MTA no longer had to withhold union dues from the worker’s pay checks. The union would have to collect the dues themselves directly from the membership. They could reapply after 90 days to the court for the right to have automatically deducted from the membership’s paychecks, but that was only an application to have that right granted once again. There was no guarantee that they would ever regain that right. I’ve never seen anything that I recall one way or the other on this. So I don’t know if dues are now back to automatic or not, although I’m guessing that the judge did eventually relent.

And I think that wraps things up. Again, I’ll repeat that most of the above is the best representation of things, based upon what I can still find on the net coupled with my memory, which is certainly not infallible. I did interject a few personal notes, along with one bit of conjecture, which I believe I’ve clearly identified as such.
 
Thanks Alan for taking the time to bring me up to speed on the MTA issue. Let me go through the Amtrak issues first. Do you really think the state services will be eventually contracted out? Privatization of the NEC: Do you think that would really work? Is that a real possibility? I have dismissed that one for awhile now as a 'not gonna happen'. The issue with NEC privatization, (I believe), is that of maintence. Who would would be willing to pay for it? They could do a British Rail move there by having someone own the tracks then allow the passenger service to be run by private operators but I think that solution is too complicated when, from what I've seen, the NEC runs pretty well as it is under Amtrak control. All of this adds up to the elimination of Amtrak at least in its present form, (privatization, contracting out, etc).

I'm confident Amtrak Labor will have to make the health care concession as well. The rest of the rail industry is moving that way if they haven't gone there already but hasn't Amtrak Labor given up a lot since the creation of the company? I can remember when each coach had an attendant, not just one for the three you see mostly nowadays, (for example). With SDS there have also been significant crew reductions. But, as I posted previously, a possible concession the LSAs, (for example), could make is elimination of some of the redundancy in the form of multiple unions representing the same craft, (I'm sorry to any LSAs out there if you think my comment is naive), to me that just does not make sense.

I think a strike is the worst thing Amtrak workers could do, yes amazingly enough I just said that. That has been the essence of my previous posts: Amtrak workers can't pressure the company in the same was as freight operations can be pressured due to the profit issue. A strike would come very close to doing what the Bush Administration and previous administrations have been unable to do and that's finish off Amtrak, (my opinion here). I don't see any public support out there for such a move.

The MTA issue looks like a complicated one but I'd like to make one comment. How can the courts uphold a law making it illegal for any workers to strike? That is supposed to be the trump card in collective bargaining. Without the implied threat of strike then the Unions have far less baragaining power that they should have when the come to the table. We ask this at where I work all the time, what's the point, (of being unionized), if we can't strike? The MTA guys went out and from what it looks like took a pretty serious beating, (from the courts), for doing so. I feel that the courts are backing up the big guys when they do this and that is a shame.
 
Mark,

Thanks for sharing your perspective with us and I agree that a strike would be incredibly damaging to Amtrak. With the Public (who both travel by Amtrak and those who don't) already aware of late trains and other problems, public support would probably evaporate quickly. If that would happen, I think Amtrak would just implode, and then Alan would be correct, only the corridors would be left...with months and months of study and strain setting up some sort of running of the NEC. The Bush Adminstration could then hold their hands over their faces and laugh to their hearts content...getting exactly what they wanted with little effort on their part. In other words a strike would play right into their hands.

Again I back Alan and said this before (quite awhile back on this forum), it's time for the Union to set up a meeting with Amtrak's biggest supporters in the Congress and the Senate, and then publicize the heck out of this problem!
 
Thanks for sharing your perspective with us and I agree that a strike would be incredibly damaging to Amtrak. With the Public (who both travel by Amtrak and those who don't) already aware of late trains and other problems, public support would probably evaporate quickly. If that would happen, I think Amtrak would just implode, and then Alan would be correct, only the corridors would be left...with months and months of study and strain setting up some sort of running of the NEC. The Bush Adminstration could then hold their hands over their faces and laugh to their hearts content...getting exactly what they wanted with little effort on their part. In other words a strike would play right into their hands.
Frj summed up things quite nicely for me Mark, I don't believe that Amtrak is currently headed in the direction of that scenario, mainly corridors only. But a strike, especially a prolonged strike by the workers, could inadvertantly push it into that doomsday scenario.

And I for one don't think that would be good for anyone, except maybe the airlines and the oil companies. the general public would come out the loosers, as would many Amtrak employees.

I'll comment more on some of your other points and questions hopefully later today, when I have some time. :)
 
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To stay informed go to WWW.UTU.ORG
UTU RALLIES FOR AMTRAK

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Some 300 UTU members joined thousands of other transportation workers in Washington, D.C., May 17, in a rally to support Amtrak and the assistant conductor, demand greater federal investment in rail and bus safety, and to seek stronger legal protection of employee bargaining rights.

UTU-represented conductors and yardmasters also rallied separately in front of Union Station demanding a new contract and an end to Amtrak's desire to fire some 400 assistant conductors.

UTU International President Paul Thompson spoke at the Amtrak rally, where the 300 UTU members and supporters were demonstrating for a new and equitable labor agreement.

Thompson encouraged UTU negotiators dealing with Amtrak to hold firm in demands for improved wages, a cap on health-care insurance costs, protection of work rules, increased training in security, and preservation of the assistant conductor job.

"Conductors and assistant conductors are Amtrak's first line of defense against terrorism," Thompson said. "Passenger railroads worldwide have been attacked -- or threatened to be attacked -- by terrorists. Most have beefed up security and employee training. Shamefully, Amtrak is moving in the opposite direction -- wanting to take conductors off the train and refusing to invest in increased employee training," Thompson said.

UTU Vice President Tony Iannone said that if Amtrak succeeds in sacking 400 assistant conductors, "it will be the passengers and the public who lose. Repeatedly, the National Transportation Safety Board has singled out the efforts of Amtrak conductors and assistant conductors in saving lives and reducing injuries following Amtrak accidents.

"Conductors must have detailed knowledge of engineering standards for equipment and track, know speed restrictions and FRA safety regulations, plus have an intimate knowledge of the landscape and communities through which their trains travel to identify hazards and quickly take proper action," Iannone said.

"With this threat of terrorism hanging over Amtrak and its passengers, the conductor and assistant conductor are the first line of defense, checking tickets and passenger ID, being alert for suspicious activity, observing passenger actions and demeanor, and knowing how to handle instances of unattended luggage and packages," Iannone said.

"The safety of passengers is the top priority of the conductor and assistant conductor, and Amtrak's chief labor negotiator, Joe Bress, should not be trading passenger lives for bragging rights that he fired 400 assistant conductors," Iannone said.

Conductors and yardmasters on Amtrak have been working without a revised contract since 1999, and negotiations have dragged on since the summer of 2000.

Thompson and Iannone also criticized Amtrak's aggressive discipline aimed at conductors. Amtrak currently is trying to fire almost 70 conductors for relatively minor infractions, which UTU officials say are largely the result of inadequate training and lack of follow-up training.

Following the Amtrak rally, UTU members joined thousands of other transportation industry workers from almost two dozen other transportation unions to rally on the Mall against anti-union policies advanced on Capitol Hill by conservative lawmakers.
 
To stay informed go to WWW.UTU.ORG
UTU RALLIES FOR AMTRAK

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Some 300 UTU members

Following the Amtrak rally, UTU members joined thousands of other transportation industry workers from almost two dozen other transportation unions to rally on the Mall against anti-union policies advanced on Capitol Hill by conservative lawmakers.
Pretty poor showing for a union that has about 50,000 members. Sounds like some other unions made it look like a real rally. My oldest son is a union plumber and the Local 198, here in Baton Rouge, had 3200 people at a rally yesterday protesting the legislature's attempt to water down plumber's licensing requirements. Now that's what I call a rally.
 
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I feel like this also could be posted in this topic.

To stay informed go to WWW.UTU.ORG
DUTY TO BARGAIN AS AGREED

The UTU has asked a federal court to order the nation’s major railroads to bargain in good faith and honor an almost five-year-old written agreement to address in national negotiations the subjects of entry rates of pay related to employee training and experience.

The lawsuit was filed in federal district court in E. St. Louis, Ill., against BNSF, CSX, Kansas City Southern, Norfolk Southern, and Union Pacific -- the five major freight railroads with which, since November 2004, the UTU has been attempting to negotiate a new national agreement. The carriers are negotiating under the umbrella of the National Carriers’ Conference Committee (NCCC).

When the most recent agreement between the UTU and the NCCC was negotiated in August 2002, the carriers signed a side letter to the agreement pledging that, "at the earliest opportunity in the [current] national bargaining round, the matter of relating the existing service scales [entry rates] in effect on each participating road to training and experience will be addressed."

Instead, the carriers have declined to discuss the issues and, in January 2007, insisted the UTU withdraw its request to address entry rates, and defer to a national wage and rules panel (outside the collective bargaining arena) the matter of training.

“The carriers have been playing a shell game with us" said UTU International President Paul Thompson. "The blatant dishonesty of the carrier labor negotiators is precisely why the UTU has teamed with shippers to support increased federal oversight of the railroads, and why we are separately asking Congress, in a comprehensive safety bill, to mandate a minimum level of employee training.

“The railroads cannot be trusted to put safety and national security ahead of profitability," Thompson said. "The railroads have so convinced investors of their market power to pillage shippers and assault labor that billions of dollars in private equity and hedge fund capital is pouring into the rail industry.

“The expectation of these fast-buck artists -- many of whom have a history of destroying companies by piling on debt and firing employees -- is that railroads will double their freight rates and use the cash not to improve safety, training and customer service, but to fund a massive buyback of stock intended to pump-up share prices. In the meantime, shippers, the public and labor are being damned once again by railroad barons.

“Our lawsuit," Thompson said, "is only one of many aggressive tools we intend to use in the courts, in Congress and elsewhere to stop this runaway gravy train before it destroys more lives in its quest for a sharp boost in short-term profits at any human cost."

The UTU lawsuit lays out the carriers’ dishonesty since the carriers signed the August 2002 side letter pledging to address entry rates of pay related to training and experience. As recently as February 2006, the UTU made another attempt to address these issues at the bargaining table.

When the NCCC said it would subsequently address the issues -- but then declined to set a date to do so -- the UTU filed a lawsuit similar to this one, but withdrew it following a commitment by NCCC chief labor negotiator Bob Allen to set dates for addressing the issues.

Yet at subsequent bargaining sessions in June and October 2006, and January 2007, the NCCC reneged yet again.

In fact, at a January 2007 negotiating session, the NCCC insisted the UTU withdraw from the table its entry-pay proposal and defer its training agreement proposal to a wage rules panel -- actions that violate the Railway Labor Act’s requirement that carriers "exert every reasonable effort to make and maintain agreements concerning rates of pay, rules and working conditions."

The entry-rates proposal the UTU asked the NCCC to address would boost new hire pay to 90 percent of parity following completion of the probationary period, and hike that pay to 100 percent of parity upon completion of one year’s service. The new hires also would receive, as a bonus following their first year, the 10 percent of parity not paid them during their first year of employment.

The UTU also presented the carriers with a detailed proposal for improved training, which the carriers declined even to discuss -- much less address -- at the bargaining table.
 
Here is a followup story to much of what was discussed in this topic.

Amtrak and its unionized locomotive mechanics, signal repairmen, trackmaintenance crews, conductors and engineers have to be setting some kind of organized-labor record.
Nearly 10,000 Amtrak employees have been working under a contract extension for more than seven years — since their last collective- bargaining agreement expired Dec. 31, 1999.
Another interesting quote from the story:

To encourage bargaining and discourage strikes, the act provides a modest wage increase — half of the cost of living — during negotiations. Some track-repair workers, for example, have seen a $1.61-anhour raise over seven years.
In those years, Amtrak has been able to keep wage hikes low. Meanwhile, the unions have kept health benefits negotiated in 1997 that look generous by today’s standards.
The full story can be found here courtesy of the Buffalo News.
 
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