The Grand Crossing project is one of the Chicago CREATE projects for passenger and freight rail routes in and through Chicago. The Grand Crossing project has its own website for the EIS process public outreach. It would build a connecting track or tracks to the NS ROW for more direct access to Union Station for the Illini, Saluki, CONO. Which according to one of the brochures would save 19 minutes from the schedule, which is a respectable trip time reduction. The timeline for this phase of the project is to have a final EIS and Record of Decision by early in 2014. Final design and construction would follow when funding is provided.
Route extension
- Thread starter Swadian Hardcore
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trainviews
Service Attendant
Well an existing train doesn't mean that additional frequeicies will not be met with large bills from the host RR (lex Sunset Limited). The reason I (and I suppose others too) have pointed to alternative routes is that 1: corridor trains greatly benefit from running trough as many population centers as possible, and St. Louis is "on the way". 2: The Lincoln service is going to get faster, so the time difference between the routes is decreasing, 3: the "new" amount of track whether going through Jonesboro or via the STL-Carbondale connection is pretty short, and it would be worth looking into at least the size of the bill and 4: as I pointed out along the current route Tennessee would be alone with the bill as Illinois probably has less interest in the connection and Kentucky next to none. The alternatives could bring Missouri and maybe Arkansas on board.
Now this is speculation, and often it is just as easy to keep it simple and just have one entity to fund it, but it requires it is willing to foot the whole bill.
I am also not saying that one or the other route will be better. If any federal money is to go into it, alternatives have to be studied anyway, and I am just pointing out that there are alternatives, that will have a better population base than the current CONO route. How costly these would be, I don't know, as I don't know the condition of the tracks in question or if they have spare capacity, and thus I don't know either if these costs will be worth it for the extra passenger potential. Just that I think it will be worth looking into...
It's pretty parallel to the debate and the study of Chicago-Omaha alternatives currently running.
trainviews
Service Attendant
And then I cant resist posting this, though slightly off topic. Written by Nobel Laureate writer Johannes Vilhelm Jensen in 1906. His poem "On Memphis station" about waiting for a broken down freight to clear the tracks is still inspiring, and is really the only part of his poetry that is still remembered today (if nothing else because generations of Danish high school students has been dragged through an analysis
:help: )
...
On Memphis Station
Half awake and half dozing,
Struck by a drear reality, but still lost
In an inner sea fog of Danaidean dreams
I stand teeth chattering
On Memphis Station, Tennessee.
It is raining.
The night is so desolate and extinguished,
And the rain flays the ground
With a senseless, dark energy.
Everything is clammy and impenetrable.
Why does the train wait here hour after hour?
Why has my lot ground to a halt here?
Am I to flee from rain and mind-numbingness
In Denmark, India and Japan
Only to be rained in and rot in Memphis
Tennessee, U.S.A.?
And now the day is dawning. Light dismally
Seeps in over this wet prison.
The day exposes mercilessly
The cold rails and all the black mud,
The waiting room with the chocolate vending machine,
Orange peel, cigar stubs and burnt-out matches,
The day gapes through with spewing gutters
And an eternal grid of rain,
Rain I say from heaven to earth.
How deaf and irremovable the world is,
How devoid of talent its creator!
And why do I keep on paying my dues
To this plebeian water cure of an existence!
Quiet! See how the engine,
That enormous contraption, stands calmly seething
Enveloping itself in smoke – it is patient.
Light your pipe on an empty stomach,
Curse God and swallow your pain!
Go on then and stay in Memphis!
After all, your life is nothing else
Than a soggy downpour, and it was always
Your lot to hang around delayed
In some miserable waiting room or other –
Stay in Memphis, Tennessee!
For inside one of these poster-yelling houses
Happiness awaits you, happiness,
If only you can devour your impatience –
Here too a curvaceous young maid sleeps
With her ear buried in her hair,
She will come to meet you
One fine day in the street
Like a wave of perfume
With a look as if she knew you.
Isn't it spring?
Doesn't the rain fall lushly?
Doesn't it sound like an amorous murmuring,
A long muted billing and cooing
Mouth to mouth
Between the rain and the earth?
The day dawned so mournfully,
But look – the rainfall gleams now!
Do you grudge the day its right to fight?
After all, it is light now. And the smell of soil
sets in between the rusty iron struts of the platform
Mixed with the rank breath of the rain-dust –
A hint of spring.
Isn't that consoling?
And see now how the Mississippi
In its bed of flooded forests
Wakes to the day!
See how the huge river enjoys its winding!
How regally it gushes in curves, swinging flotillas
of trees and tattered driftwood in its eddies!
See how it leads a huge paddle steamer
Into its Deluge-embrace
Like a dancer that masters the dance-floor!
See the sunken headlands – Oh what a vast calm
Over the landscape of drowning forests!
Can't you see how the morning waters of the current
Dress themselves a mile wide in the day's paltry light
And soundly journey under the rain-heavy clouds!
Compose yourself, you too, implacable one!
Will you never forget that eternity was promised you?
Do you withhold from the earth your poor gratitude?
What do you want then with your lover's heart?
Compose yourself and stay in Memphis,
Seek citizenship on the market square,
Go in and take out a life insurance among the others,
Pay your premium of meanness,
So that they can feel secure,
And you won't be thrown out of the association.
Court that maid with roses and a gold ring
And set up a sawmill like everyone else.
Look around, smoke your pipe of wisdom
In sphinx-abandoned Memphis,
Hitch up your rubber boots without a qualm...
Ah, there comes that miserable freight train
That we have waited six hours for.
It comes in slowly – with crushed sides,
It whistles feebly, the cars limping on three wheels,
And the stove roof dripping with earth and mud.
But on the tender among the coals
Lie four motionless figures
Covered with blood-drenched coats.
Then our great express train snorts,
Moves slightly forwards and stops with a deep sigh
Ready to leap forward. The track is clear.
And we journey on
Through the flooded forests
Beneath the gaping floodgates of the rain.
:help: )
...
On Memphis Station
Half awake and half dozing,
Struck by a drear reality, but still lost
In an inner sea fog of Danaidean dreams
I stand teeth chattering
On Memphis Station, Tennessee.
It is raining.
The night is so desolate and extinguished,
And the rain flays the ground
With a senseless, dark energy.
Everything is clammy and impenetrable.
Why does the train wait here hour after hour?
Why has my lot ground to a halt here?
Am I to flee from rain and mind-numbingness
In Denmark, India and Japan
Only to be rained in and rot in Memphis
Tennessee, U.S.A.?
And now the day is dawning. Light dismally
Seeps in over this wet prison.
The day exposes mercilessly
The cold rails and all the black mud,
The waiting room with the chocolate vending machine,
Orange peel, cigar stubs and burnt-out matches,
The day gapes through with spewing gutters
And an eternal grid of rain,
Rain I say from heaven to earth.
How deaf and irremovable the world is,
How devoid of talent its creator!
And why do I keep on paying my dues
To this plebeian water cure of an existence!
Quiet! See how the engine,
That enormous contraption, stands calmly seething
Enveloping itself in smoke – it is patient.
Light your pipe on an empty stomach,
Curse God and swallow your pain!
Go on then and stay in Memphis!
After all, your life is nothing else
Than a soggy downpour, and it was always
Your lot to hang around delayed
In some miserable waiting room or other –
Stay in Memphis, Tennessee!
For inside one of these poster-yelling houses
Happiness awaits you, happiness,
If only you can devour your impatience –
Here too a curvaceous young maid sleeps
With her ear buried in her hair,
She will come to meet you
One fine day in the street
Like a wave of perfume
With a look as if she knew you.
Isn't it spring?
Doesn't the rain fall lushly?
Doesn't it sound like an amorous murmuring,
A long muted billing and cooing
Mouth to mouth
Between the rain and the earth?
The day dawned so mournfully,
But look – the rainfall gleams now!
Do you grudge the day its right to fight?
After all, it is light now. And the smell of soil
sets in between the rusty iron struts of the platform
Mixed with the rank breath of the rain-dust –
A hint of spring.
Isn't that consoling?
And see now how the Mississippi
In its bed of flooded forests
Wakes to the day!
See how the huge river enjoys its winding!
How regally it gushes in curves, swinging flotillas
of trees and tattered driftwood in its eddies!
See how it leads a huge paddle steamer
Into its Deluge-embrace
Like a dancer that masters the dance-floor!
See the sunken headlands – Oh what a vast calm
Over the landscape of drowning forests!
Can't you see how the morning waters of the current
Dress themselves a mile wide in the day's paltry light
And soundly journey under the rain-heavy clouds!
Compose yourself, you too, implacable one!
Will you never forget that eternity was promised you?
Do you withhold from the earth your poor gratitude?
What do you want then with your lover's heart?
Compose yourself and stay in Memphis,
Seek citizenship on the market square,
Go in and take out a life insurance among the others,
Pay your premium of meanness,
So that they can feel secure,
And you won't be thrown out of the association.
Court that maid with roses and a gold ring
And set up a sawmill like everyone else.
Look around, smoke your pipe of wisdom
In sphinx-abandoned Memphis,
Hitch up your rubber boots without a qualm...
Ah, there comes that miserable freight train
That we have waited six hours for.
It comes in slowly – with crushed sides,
It whistles feebly, the cars limping on three wheels,
And the stove roof dripping with earth and mud.
But on the tender among the coals
Lie four motionless figures
Covered with blood-drenched coats.
Then our great express train snorts,
Moves slightly forwards and stops with a deep sigh
Ready to leap forward. The track is clear.
And we journey on
Through the flooded forests
Beneath the gaping floodgates of the rain.
Last edited by a moderator:
Blue Marble Travel
Service Attendant
Thanks for that, Trainviews. A fascinating poem, and one I (personally) did not know.
Sounds like the limping freight was more than "broken down," but rather had been an unhappy participant in a wreck....
Sounds like the limping freight was more than "broken down," but rather had been an unhappy participant in a wreck....
As someone who lives in the overnight portion of this route as currently available I would welcome daytime service which hasn't been available since the old City was discontinued. Many people might travel between some of these points if they could do so without having to disrupt their sleep. Of course this applies to nearly all longer distance services that operate overnight. In an ideal world service would be twice daily to expose as many possible passengers to convenient services. Chances of that happening are about none in my opinion. Cuts to the budget and lackluster amtrak interest in really building service are the biggest roadblocks to these ideas. Besides the current systems of demanding states pay for much of what should be the national system of feeder lines also slows progress to additional service. Illinois already has the worst budget issues in the nation and yet still proceeds to expand services, which while nice, is not going to withstand the reality of budgets someday.
Ozark Southern
Lead Service Attendant
Missouri is interested in Omaha/Kansas City/Springfield/Memphis service. It's not our highest priority, but if Arkansas comes on board in the way Illinois has been, we'll partner with them. Missouri really cannot support any additional corridor trains without help from the neighbouring states: Even the highest priority new service, St. Louis to Springfield, is only viable because of Illinois' Lincoln corridor improvements. I know from living in the Ozarks that Memphis is a major regional airport for us, especially with service from discount providers through MEM. It's becoming more popular for Ozarkians to fly from Memphis than from St. Louis. American is pretty much the only provider from Lambert any more, and they're simply too expensive. If it's about the same amount of travel time--and it is--we'd just as soon drive to Tennessee. Amtrak/MoDOT could certainly benefit from capitalizing on that market.
I recall seeing (and reading) the MoDOT study of St. Louis-Springfield service from a few years ago. Has MoDOT released a study of Omaha-Kansas City-Springfield-Memphis (or some segment thereof) service?
Ozark Southern
Lead Service Attendant
No, a study hasn't been published, because they haven't done a feasibility study on it yet, and probably won't until the STL-SGF line is implemented (whenever that may be). It has been mentioned in online surveys designed to gauge interest, most recently in the FY2012 rail plan survey from late last year; and it was discussed at the rail plan public meetings, which I attended. MoDOT calls KCY-STL, STL-SGF, and SGF-KCY the "Missouri Triangle", and highest priority will be given to those routes, in that order. From what I understand to be their intentions, we'll likely see increased frequencies on the River Runner before any sort of expanded service, specifically frequencies timetabled so that business travelers from STL or KCY can get to JEF and back same day for meetings and whatnot.
johnny.menhennet
Conductor
At some point after STL-SGF is implemented, would it be possible to extend that train to Joplin?
Ben_G
Service Attendant
With only one town in Kentucky on that route (Fulton) having service very doubtfull the state would support it. And it is only a flag stop with a tiny trailer for a station.
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
I did not realize that they wanted OMA-MEM service. This would mainly use the old Frisco. Unlikely to happen.
George Harris
Engineer
I have also read this study. The short conclusion on my part is this should not be done. It is simply too slow. The proposed one train a day also adds to the lack of chance of success. Simply put, this schedule is very similar to the old City of Memphis between Memphis and Nashville which was down to one coach before going away all together in about 1958, and that when the alternative was two lane US 70 with a drive time not much faster, if any, than the train.
The existing railroad alignment is simply too crooked to achieve much speed, no matter what sort of maximum speed limit it has.
Lake Country
Train Attendant
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2009
- Messages
- 19
If you actually read that study conclusion, It makes clear that the St.Louis - Springfield line would be too costly and far to slow to draw enough pax. It is not going to happen. There is no way the MO legislature is going to approve the annual funding to support it and the proposed train will not receive any Fed start up money in a competitive environment.
MoDOT Pax rail priorities are:
1)Increase on time performance and then frequencies of the MoRR.
2)Increase speed of MoRR (90mph then 110mph)
3)Study the establishment of an Omaha-KC service
IMHO:
I could see value of Oma-KC if it turns 2x a day and has a timing connection with the St. Louis service. (St.L could connect with the CZ and Omaha could connect with St. Louis.)
Finally a commitment increasing speed (90mph and then 110mph)of the SWC and perhaps bring a return of the Ann Rutledge service CHI-KC. as a dedicated City Pair service.
The future of Amtrak and US rail service is going to be Major Market - Major Market connections. Branch line service to 2nd tier 3rd tier and 4th tier cities is simply not going to happen due to financing, host RR reluctance, equipment constraints and political opposition.
I don't know about major market to major market...in the past few years, it seems like expansion has been more like NEC to places like Lynchburg, or Boston to Portland, and soon beyond Portland. And new service to places like Rock Island or Dubuque...
To me, 'major market to major market', would be defined by the route of the former National Limited....New York-Philadelphia-Pittsburgh-Columbus-Indianapolis-St. Louis-Kansas City.....
And we all know what happenned to that train...
To me, 'major market to major market', would be defined by the route of the former National Limited....New York-Philadelphia-Pittsburgh-Columbus-Indianapolis-St. Louis-Kansas City.....
And we all know what happenned to that train...
sldispatcher
Train Attendant
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2008
- Messages
- 78
I like the idea of a CHI-MEM daytime only service. Can you blame the folks in TN or KY for the ridership numbers?...look at the station times through those states??? I believe every long distance route should have a second train along the way just to provide backup for equipment failure/delays, etc. That can be in the form of segmented daytime only trains or at least a second scheduled long distance offset by 8 hours or so (or more) to provide daytime service at every station in both directions.
Additionally, I can only imagine the ridership bump headed north into Chicago from these points as a much more reasonable fare is provided by rail over air. Each time you increase ridership, you start to get the politicians ears.
It will always boil down to frequency, reliability, and service.
Additionally, I can only imagine the ridership bump headed north into Chicago from these points as a much more reasonable fare is provided by rail over air. Each time you increase ridership, you start to get the politicians ears.
It will always boil down to frequency, reliability, and service.
That is not what the current trends in adding new corridor services show. The added services that are here or coming are generally small/Mid-size to a major market anchor city. Lynchburg/Charlottesville VA to WAS as a NE Regional extension; in development: Quad Cities to Chicago, Dubuque to Chicago, Norfolk to WAS as a NE Regional extension. The smaller to mid-size city markets are going to see their air travel options shrink and become increasingly expensive in the coming years. In the face of high fuel costs and when it comes, tight fuel supplies, the airlines will consolidate as much as they can to mainly flying between the major city airports and incrementally letting the smaller market airports go.
The ideal routes will be from major market to major market city but going through a number of mid to small market communities on the route. But corridor services to a series of mid-sized and small cities are also part of the process of restoring passenger train travel in the US.
sldispatcher
Train Attendant
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2008
- Messages
- 78
Agree wholeheartedly. New routes need to be able to feed major markets on both ends from the smaller communities up and down the route.
You are also looking at the benefits of gaining larger passenger counts in smaller places as frequency increases with only incremental costs as the station/infrastructure is mostly intact to handle the service. I also think the approach needs to be even more local.....if a community wants a stop for the train....they need to fund/match grant the cost of station and/or personnel.
In my perfect world, a place like Fulton, KY would provide the station agent...as an extension of their own town employment..and keep that person off of the Amtrak payroll/cost of running the train. Keep the service end/customer contact end of the passenger interface as local as possible. I know that several will disagree and I am aware of the reasons...but local communities need some "skin in the game" too. They don't have to underwrite moving the train down the tracks, but they can certainly provide some support from the employee pool they already maintain.
Ozark Southern
Lead Service Attendant
Yes, in theory. Of course we're still assuming STL-SGF is going to happen. And it may: MoDOT was much more positive in the meetings last fall than they were in 2007, for a couple of reasons which I'll address below. But first, there are two scenarios in which we may see Joplin service: 1) an SGF-KCY train would easily accomodate Joplin. The most direct route from Springfield goes northwest along the BNSF to Lamar, then north on MNA through Nevada to Harrisonville and then on to join the UP tracks just east of Lee's Summit. However, there are a couple of alternative routes which come up through Joplin, albeit necessitating some connector tracks. One would use BNSF to Aurora, then MNA to Carthage, then following MNA north same as above. This routing does not lend itself to a downtown Joplin station, as it would require some sort of push-pull manoeuvre. The better, yet more complicated alternative would be BNSF (Frisco mainline) through Aurora and Monett, then switch to KCS to southern Joplin, then switch to MNA into downtown Joplin, and north as above. Yes, it's also possible to use the KCS tracks JOP-KCY, but that line is much more sparsely populated, and a stop in Nevada is highly desirable, since it is the regional town for the farm villages of western Missouri. So, needless to say that's a project that's going to take a mountain of work to come to fruition.
Second, if Oklahoma gets serious about their OKC-TUL route, a JOP connection point would be ideal for switching between corridor trains, in much the same way MO and IL do now at St. Louis. Unfortunately, the Frisco mainline ran through Neosho, a much more important town than Joplin at the time. So getting Joplin service on a potential STL-OKC corridor would still require at least the cooperation of BNSF and MNA, and probably KCS as well.
I have also read the study, and there were outlined a couple of main issues with that routing that are now resolved. One, there was in 2007 no universal crossover at Kirkwood, which would have required skipping KWD and running on mainly 10MPH track the whole way into STL. That crossover was installed in 2009. That alone shaves about an hour off the time. Secondly, the impending speed increase on the MORR (which the STL-SGF service would share track from Pacific to Gateway Station) means the STL-SGF train could potentially run at 90MPH the last 35 miles of its journey. So rather than just over 6 hrs. from end to end, we have right about 5 hrs. Still not great--but look at this. Now that we're looking at 3.5 hrs. STL-CHI, an SGF-CHI trip on Amtrak runs 8.5 hours--almost exactly what it takes to drive.
In conclusion, given the major upgrades in both Missouri and Illinois, the ridership numbers in the 2007 study can only be taken as accurate for a service that would have begun in 2007, and not for a new service starting now or in the next few years. Granted, Missouri will still need to decide that they wish to pay for this route, and it still will cost us quite a bit to get it started. Other issues like the lack of any usable stations in Springfield, Lebanon, Rolla, and Sullivan are still true today. This route is just a hair closer to happening than it was 5 years ago--and you are correct that MoDOT's highest passenger rail priority is in increasing speed and frequency on the MORR. STL-SGF service, if it happens at all, will not occur until those MORR improvements have already taken place.
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
Feed from smaller cities are important, but the termini should still be large cities. Major market-Major Market will still generate more revenue than Major-Minor/Medium. The Lynchburgher would get even more ridership and growth if extended to Charlotte, just like Illini/Saluki to MEM.
But please stay on topic for CHI-MEM.
But please stay on topic for CHI-MEM.
johnny.menhennet
Conductor
Swadian, I do not mean for this to be rude, whether it sounds like it or not.
You have not been on this forum long enough to know that topics stray off very quickly and that there is not much you can do to it. I feel that we, for the most part, have discussed the CHI-MEM topic adequately, and I know for me, it seems irritating when a new member comes on and repeatedly tries to shape our answers to what he/she wants to hear. Just because you have posted a lot since joining does not give you much more standing than anyone else on here. Try to hold back a little on being so assertive with the other posters.
Well, "major market-major market" may generate more revenue, but at what additional cost? And, as it pertains to the CHI-CDL corridor (and possible MEM extension), even if a day train were run CHI-MEM, wouldn't it still make sense to have additional runs CHI-CDL (and/or just CHI-CHM) as well, even though CDL (and CHM) aren't major markets?
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