Route extension

[Swadian Hardcore]

Just an idea I was thinking about. Amtrak's Illini and Saluki currently goes from Chicago to Carbondale. When if Amtrak extended one or both south to Memphis. This would be short but significant. I know, it goes through Kentucky and Tennessee, but if their governments could agree on something, I could see it happening. I haven't found any plans for this, so any thoughts?

 

[Shortline]

Just an idea I was thinking about. Amtrak's Illini and Saluki currently goes from Chicago to Carbondale. When if Amtrak extended one or both south to Memphis. This would be short but significant. I know, it goes through Kentucky and Tennessee, but if their governments could agree on something, I could see it happening. I haven't found any plans for this, so any thoughts?

Chicago/Memphis is already pretty well served with the CONO I believes, though it is overnight..  Not sure another CHI-MEM would be a good thing, if nothing else, it might take ridership off the CONO, and end up being discontinued, I understand it's not very well used South of Memphis.  No personal experience with it, just what I've heard.

 

[afigg]

Just an idea I was thinking about. Amtrak's Illini and Saluki currently goes from Chicago to Carbondale. When if Amtrak extended one or both south to Memphis. This would be short but significant. I know, it goes through Kentucky and Tennessee, but if their governments could agree on something, I could see it happening. I haven't found any plans for this, so any thoughts?

Chicago/Memphis is already pretty well served with the CONO I believe. Not sure another CHI-MEM would be a good thing, if nothing else, it might take ridership off the CONO, and end up being discontinued, I understand it's not very well used South of Memphis. No personal experience with it, just what I've heard.

CHI-MEM is overnight on the CONO with a 6:27 AM arrival from CHI and 10:40 PM departure to CHI. Not great hours for Memphis ridership, As for fear that a 2nd daily corridor service train would take away ridership from CONO, no, in general, adding a 2nd or 3rd frequency grows ridership.

As for extending one of the IL trains, it could be a viable idea. Memphis is 219 miles from Carbondale and 528 miles from Chicago. Northbound travel time from Memphis to Carbondale is 4.5 hours, so that part of the route has decent speeds. At 528 miles, it would have to be a state supported train.

Fulton KY had 3,548 passengers in FY11, so it is unlikely that KY would have any interest in supporting a corridor train. Memphis is a different matter. Whether TN would be willing to consider contributing to a CHI-MEM corridor service, not a clue.

Another issue could be equipment. Looking at the schedule, looks likes the current Saluki & Illini service takes 2 trainsets. Those trainsets will be getting upgraded to bi-level cars in a few years. Extending a daily train to Memphis might take a 3rd trainset or a less convenient schedule for Carbondale to Chicago. Still, this should be a low hanging fruit for am extended corridor service - if Tennessee has any interest in it.

 

[Steve4031]

I think additional frequencies usually help increase ridership. It is about an ll hour trip. So the Saluki would arrive into Memphis about 9 p.m. in the evening. The north bound would depart Memphis about mid morning to continue north to Carbondale and Chicago. They would need additional equipment to do this. Currently, two sets of equipment handle the saluki/Illini service if I understand operations correctly.

I suspect Memphis would be the primary benefactor of this service, and Tenesse would have to chip in significant amounts of money for the extension. The stops three stops between Carbondale and Memphis are flag stops IIRC, and probably do not have enough population to significantly add to ridership on this line.

A more interesting alternative, IMHO, would be a Chicago, St. Louis, Carbondale, Memphis service. Once the 4 hour travel times are implemented on the CHI-STL line, this could be possible.

A sample schedule off the top of my head:

Chi-7 a.m.

STL 11 a.m.

StL 11:30 a.m.

Carbondale 2 p.m.

Memphis 7 p.m.

The train would make all of the stops to St. Louis, and then continue on its way to Memphis. With the new bilevels, I am sure push pull operation would be possible, so switching ends in St. Louis would not be that difficult.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

St. Louis is not along the CONO route, rather the TE. There has not been St. Louis-Carbondale-Memphis service until the Kansas City through cars (named the River Cities) were discontinued a while back.

Also, I do not see this as viable. The trip takes 5 hours not two from Car... to Memphis. The equipment and consist rotation would be screwed up significantly. As it stands, the morning train out of each city is able to provide that afternoon's return, so only 1 set of equip is required per train.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Illini and Saluki are Illinois trains, designed to serve the large student populations at Champaign, Charleston (via Effingham) and Carbondale. I doubt if the Illinois legislature would continue to fund them if you turn them into long distance trains. Ergo, there would be no Illini or Saluki.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

If new bi-levels displace the Horizons, then, the latter could be used on the new service. Even though most pax are students, dosen't mean Memphis has no traffic. If only Amtrak wasn't bound by state support and politics, they could have starrted the route already.

Also, does anybody know where the Horizons are boing after the Talgos and bi-levels come?

 

[MikefromCrete]

If new bi-levels displace the Horizons, then, the latter could be used on the new service. Even though most pax are students, dosen't mean Memphis has no traffic. If only Amtrak wasn't bound by state support and politics, they could have starrted the route already.

Also, does anybody know where the Horizons are boing after the Talgos and bi-levels come?

Hopefully some place warm where they won't freeze up.

 

[trainviews]

I think additional frequencies usually help increase ridership. It is about an ll hour trip. So the Saluki would arrive into Memphis about 9 p.m. in the evening. The north bound would depart Memphis about mid morning to continue north to Carbondale and Chicago. They would need additional equipment to do this. Currently, two sets of equipment handle the saluki/Illini service if I understand operations correctly.

I suspect Memphis would be the primary benefactor of this service, and Tenesse would have to chip in significant amounts of money for the extension. The stops three stops between Carbondale and Memphis are flag stops IIRC, and probably do not have enough population to significantly add to ridership on this line.

A more interesting alternative, IMHO, would be a Chicago, St. Louis, Carbondale, Memphis service. Once the 4 hour travel times are implemented on the CHI-STL line, this could be possible.

A sample schedule off the top of my head:

Chi-7 a.m.

STL 11 a.m.

StL 11:30 a.m.

Carbondale 2 p.m.

Memphis 7 p.m.

The train would make all of the stops to St. Louis, and then continue on its way to Memphis. With the new bilevels, I am sure push pull operation would be possible, so switching ends in St. Louis would not be that difficult.

Another option would be to take it even further down the TE line to Walnut Ridge. From there, there's a fairly straight route via Jonesboro (another college town) to Memphis with a possibility of serving the West Memphis area too.

The current run is 11 hours from Chicago to Walnut Ridge, and then a couple has to be added to Memphis. It's a bit longer than the CONO route (10 ½ hours), but adds service to STL with connections to Kansas City. It would be operated as an extension of a Lincoln service train and it might be easier to finance as Missouri, Arkansas and Tennessee all benefit from it.

 

[jphjaxfl]

Even before Amtrak, Illinois Central had corridor service from Chicago to Carbondale that did very well. The State of Illinois has helped to fund a partial return of that corridor. Extension to Memphis through Kentucky and Tennessee is only going to happen if those states help with the subsidy as Illinois is currently doing. Since neither state is currently funding any Amtrak service to their major cites of Louisville and Lexington for Kentucky and Nashville for Tenneessee, I don't foresee them subsidizing service that would mainly serve Illinois.

 

[lepearso]

The idea was discussed briefly in the Tennessee State Legislature back in the early 1990's. The discussion entailed partnering with the State of Illinois to extend the Illini to Memphis, which would have required an earlier southbound schedule while preserving the northbound schedule. Needless to say, it did not pass. Tennessee has never been interested in supporting Amtrak. Our state would rather put together elaborate plans for passenger rail(like a high speed Memphis-Nashville-Knoxville route on a mostly new right-of-way) and hope that money falls from the sky to pay for it.

Going back to the original post, the idea of day train connecting Chicago and Memphis has merit. Memphis is a huge market for tourism and business. It has a fine Amtrak station with easy access to local transit and the rail line from Memphis to Carbondale has decent speed.

Yes, it would require an additional train set and a funding partnership between Tennessee and Illinois. It's not impossible, but it would be a huge challenge. Our state legislature would not blink at the idea unless it came by way of Tennessee Department of Transportation and an influential state senator. The latter could be problematic these days because West Tennessee as a whole has less political pull that the other two grand divisions.

As far as equipment, the upcoming bi-level cars for the Midwest would be perfect. The existing southbound Saluki schedule and the northbound Illini schedule would also be workable as they are. It would require a third train set, however.

They would also need to add a few more station stops in West Tennessee to serve a larger population. Millington would be a good location to serve people in the eastern suburbs of Memphis. Train travel would have greater appeal for this large concentration of people if they could catch the train closer to home and not have to drive downtown. Covington would bring Amtrak service much closer to Jackson, TN, which has an area population of over 160,000 people. The City of New Orleans would benefit from these added stops as well.

 

[afigg]

If new bi-levels displace the Horizons, then, the latter could be used on the new service. Even though most pax are students, dosen't mean Memphis has no traffic. If only Amtrak wasn't bound by state support and politics, they could have starrted the route already.

Also, does anybody know where the Horizons are boing after the Talgos and bi-levels come?

What happens to the Horizons is likely in the to be determined category. The new bi-level corridor cars won't likely start arriving in quantity until 2015 with the initial units going to the higher profile Chicago-St. Louis and Chicago-Detroit 110 mph corridors. It could be 2017 before Chicago-Carbondale gets the new bi-level cars. Plenty of time to decide what to do with the Horizons. Some may remain in service in the Mid-West to provide additional service frequencies or expanded service - such as an 3rd daily corridor train from Chicago - Carbondale extended to Memphis - until more bi-levels are ordered. Some Horizons may end up in Florida to start corridor service over the FEC, which would be the warm climate place to spend their later years, until new equipment can be be ordered.

 

[jphjaxfl]

TN could really benefit from some subsidy to Amtrak. When Al Gore was Senator, in the early days of Amtrak, he was trying to get some local support for better Amtrak service. They wanted to re-route the Floridian from Nashville through Chattanooga & Atlanta. No one in TN was interested. As a teenager, back in the early 1960s, I would travel through Memphis frequently by train from Hot Springs, AR to TN, Ky, even to New York. There was 40 trains going every where. You get a through train to Los Angeles and a couple of through trains to New York on different routes, so I agree Memphis has a lot of potential. TN just needs to get on the train!

 

[afigg]

Another option would be to take it even further down the TE line to Walnut Ridge. From there, there's a fairly straight route via Jonesboro (another college town) to Memphis with a possibility of serving the West Memphis area too.

The current run is 11 hours from Chicago to Walnut Ridge, and then a couple has to be added to Memphis. It's a bit longer than the CONO route (10 ½ hours), but adds service to STL with connections to Kansas City. It would be operated as an extension of a Lincoln service train and it might be easier to finance as Missouri, Arkansas and Tennessee all benefit from it.

The problem with these ideas of, hey, let's run the train over this or those tracks that have not seen passenger service in decades, is that it could easily run into hundreds of millions to upgrade the tracks for passenger trains even if the tracks are in good condition. The freight railroads can and will demand the states pay for track and signal upgrades. Look at what it is costing to start/restore service from Chicago-Dubuque and Chicago to Quad Cities.

The existing CONO presents a much lower cost barrier to providing daytime corridor service from Chicago to Memphis which already has decent speeds and a ~10.5 hour trip time suitable for a day time corridor run. IL, of course, is very supportive of passenger rail and the Chicago-Carbondale is likely to see some investments in improvements. One of which is the Grand Crossing project in Chicago, which if I recall correctly, is expected to cut about 15 minutes off the Illini/Saluki trip times.

Whether Tennessee would support a passenger train is obviously the major hurdle. But Memphis is TN's largest city in population and the city and local leaders may support the idea if there was an organized effort to push for it. Adding an additional station stop or two in TN would help build support. Not something that happens quickly, but I think we will see a lot more support for train service extensions such as this when gas hits $5 to $6 a gallon in a few years.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Another option would be to take it even further down the TE line to Walnut Ridge. From there, there's a fairly straight route via Jonesboro (another college town) to Memphis with a possibility of serving the West Memphis area too.

The current run is 11 hours from Chicago to Walnut Ridge, and then a couple has to be added to Memphis. It's a bit longer than the CONO route (10 ½ hours), but adds service to STL with connections to Kansas City. It would be operated as an extension of a Lincoln service train and it might be easier to finance as Missouri, Arkansas and Tennessee all benefit from it.

The problem with these ideas of, hey, let's run the train over this or those tracks that have not seen passenger service in decades, is that it could easily run into hundreds of millions to upgrade the tracks for passenger trains even if the tracks are in good condition. The freight railroads can and will demand the states pay for track and signal upgrades. Look at what it is costing to start/restore service from Chicago-Dubuque and Chicago to Quad Cities.

The existing CONO presents a much lower cost barrier to providing daytime corridor service from Chicago to Memphis which already has decent speeds and a ~10.5 hour trip time suitable for a day time corridor run. IL, of course, is very supportive of passenger rail and the Chicago-Carbondale is likely to see some investments in improvements. One of which is the Grand Crossing project in Chicago, which if I recall correctly, is expected to cut about 15 minutes off the Illini/Saluki trip times.

Whether Tennessee would support a passenger train is obviously the major hurdle. But Memphis is TN's largest city in population and the city and local leaders may support the idea if there was an organized effort to push for it. Adding an additional station stop or two in TN would help build support. Not something that happens quickly, but I think we will see a lot more support for train service extensions such as this when gas hits $5 to $6 a gallon in a few years.

All this is why I still think that a Chicago to Memphis route along the old IC will be best. Even if Kentucky dosen't give funding, just Tennesse money should get the train moving. If they want HSR, why not do this first, it's much cheaper and can be started immediately.

 

[Anderson]

I'm wondering, realistically, what the net cost of this operation would be versus the current terminate-at-Carbondale operation (i.e. How much would TN really have to pony up). As to TN's position, TN has had lousy interchange options for the last thirty years or so. IIRC, the big problem they found when they looked over a lot of this was that:

-Most of the internal state corridors would be effectively isolated.

-The Kentucky Cardinal was needed to get some connectivity in the plans...and that involved an extension through KY.

-The exception was Chattanooga-Atlanta, where there was some sort of local nonsense plan to put in a Maglev (which they "deferred to" rather than splitting efforts or somesuch).

I would honestly say that TN is in about the worst possible position of any state outside the Rockies, geographically speaking, to try and set up corridor service because of interchange problems.

 

[jphjaxfl]

What does interchange problems have to do without corridor service? Tennessee could have corridor service between its major cities ; ie Nashville -Memphis; Nashville -Chattanooga; Chattanooga -Memphis-Knoxville; Knoxville - Nashville. At some point, these cities all had connecting rail lines. If TN had come up with some funding, we might have some service in TN today, except fort very limited was Amtrak service.

 

[railiner]

I used to ride weekly between Chicago and Rantoul on this route, back in '66 and '67 when I was stationed at now defunct Chanute AFB. This was during the height of Paul Reistrup's reign as passenger csar on the IC. They fashioned this route as a "Mini-Corridor" service, and tried to time several trains at regular intervals. It carried very heavily in those years from Rantoul which now is almost like a ghost town.

One thing that I noticed is that the City of New Orleans no longer stops at Cairo. Anyone know why that stop was discontinued?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

What does interchange problems have to do without corridor service? Tennessee could have corridor service between its major cities ; ie Nashville -Memphis; Nashville -Chattanooga; Chattanooga -Memphis-Knoxville; Knoxville - Nashville. At some point, these cities all had connecting rail lines. If TN had come up with some funding, we might have some service in TN today, except fort very limited was Amtrak service.

I'm not sure if Knoxville-Nashville had a rail line. Currently there is not even a freight line. Could someone confirm?

 

[George Harris]

One thing that I noticed is that the City of New Orleans no longer stops at Cairo. Anyone know why that stop was discontinued?

Lack of patronage. Cairo has been shrinking in population for years and ridership even more so.

(From wikipedia, peak population 15,203 in 1920, fairly steady to end of WW2, was 3,632 in 2000, and 2,831 in 2010.)

 

[George Harris]

Yes, it would take an extra train set, but it would be one of the simplest to add trains in the system.

Saluki south, Illini north, but should rename for the sake of consistency south of Carbondale.

South

8:15 am Lv Chicago - existing

1:45 pm Ar Carbondale - existing

2:00 pm Lv Carbondale - New

6:45 pm Ar Memphis - New

North

11:00 am Lv Memphis - New

3:45 pm Ar Carbondale - New

4:05 pm Lv Carbondale - existing

9:35 pm Ar Chicago - existing

It would seem to be a great opportunity to reintroduce St. Louis to Memphis service. This would require new service over about 90 miles of new track, St. Louis to Duquoin. Call it leaving St. Louis at about 11:30 am southbound and arriving St. Louis about 6:15 pm northbound.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

What does interchange problems have to do without corridor service? Tennessee could have corridor service between its major cities ; ie Nashville -Memphis; Nashville -Chattanooga; Chattanooga -Memphis-Knoxville; Knoxville - Nashville. At some point, these cities all had connecting rail lines. If TN had come up with some funding, we might have some service in TN today, except fort very limited was Amtrak service.

I'm not sure if Knoxville-Nashville had a rail line. Currently there is not even a freight line. Could someone confirm?

Yes, the old Tennessee Central RR covered that. But it was discontinued in the early 50's.IIRC

That left the Southern RR via Chattanooga. The NYC, Washington to Memphis Tennessean had a through sleeper from Bristol to Nashville. That meant when the Tennessean arrived Chattanooga at the Terminal Station (today's Choo Choo) it was removed from it and switched about a quarter a mile away and put on an L&N train to Nashville out of Union Station, long since torn down.

The same trip could be made between, say, the Pelican and the Georgian, changing in Chattanooga.Several hours layover.

Yeah, not really a direct line.

 

[afigg]

Yes, it would take an extra train set, but it would be one of the simplest to add trains in the system.

Saluki south, Illini north, but should rename for the sake of consistency south of Carbondale.

I agree, having looked at the routes and distances more, that extending a daytime corridor train to Memphis is a worthy idea and should not be that difficult to do, provided CN does not say no. The daytime schedule would complement the CONO Chicago-Memphis overnight schedule very nicely and could be done with no or little adjustments to the current Chicago-Carbondale schedules. Memphis had 65,769 passengers in FY11 which are decent numbers given the 6:27/6:50 AM and 10:00/10:40 PM arrival/departure times.

The Memphis to Chicago driving time is given as 8 to 9 hours. So, with some modest trip time reductions from Chicago to Carbondale with the Grand Crossing project in a few years, perhaps some IL state funding for track improvements, remove some trip time padding in the CONO schedule for LD trains, say the Memphis to Chicago corridor trip time is trimmed to under 10 hours. Close enough to compete with driving and bus service. Memphis is a big enough city to serve as a anchor city for a interstate corridor train. Could be very successful. Just have to get TN to provide some funding.

If they don't have one, Amtrak should have a business development effort that focuses on starting up or extending corridor services on the existing LD train routes. The corridor service would help improve the cost recovery of the LD train by sharing station and support costs along the corridor part of the route, boost LD train ridership base, and pay for station and track upgrades. The very successful NE Regional extension to Lynchburg is a good example of where the LD train route provides a much lower barrier to starting up a corridor service. Chicago to Twin Cities is another example of a likely future corridor service over an LD train route. The more corridor routes the LD trains have to operate on, the more stable the foundation is in ridership, track maintenance, and political support for the LD trains.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Yes, it would take an extra train set, but it would be one of the simplest to add trains in the system.

Saluki south, Illini north, but should rename for the sake of consistency south of Carbondale.

I agree, having looked at the routes and distances more, that extending a daytime corridor train to Memphis is a worthy idea and should not be that difficult to do, provided CN does not say no. The daytime schedule would complement the CONO Chicago-Memphis overnight schedule very nicely and could be done with no or little adjustments to the current Chicago-Carbondale schedules. Memphis had 65,769 passengers in FY11 which are decent numbers given the 6:27/6:50 AM and 10:00/10:40 PM arrival/departure times.

The Memphis to Chicago driving time is given as 8 to 9 hours. So, with some modest trip time reductions from Chicago to Carbondale with the Grand Crossing project in a few years, perhaps some IL state funding for track improvements, remove some trip time padding in the CONO schedule for LD trains, say the Memphis to Chicago corridor trip time is trimmed to under 10 hours. Close enough to compete with driving and bus service. Memphis is a big enough city to serve as a anchor city for a interstate corridor train. Could be very successful. Just have to get TN to provide some funding.

If they don't have one, Amtrak should have a business development effort that focuses on starting up or extending corridor services on the existing LD train routes. The corridor service would help improve the cost recovery of the LD train by sharing station and support costs along the corridor part of the route, boost LD train ridership base, and pay for station and track upgrades. The very successful NE Regional extension to Lynchburg is a good example of where the LD train route provides a much lower barrier to starting up a corridor service. Chicago to Twin Cities is another example of a likely future corridor service over an LD train route. The more corridor routes the LD trains have to operate on, the more stable the foundation is in ridership, track maintenance, and political support for the LD trains.

What is the Grand Crossing project?

 

[NY Penn]

What is the Grand Crossing project?

IIRC an overpass in Chicago that will shorten trip times.