"Rerouting" CONO to Florida

[Ben]

How about running the City of New Orleans to Florida and servicing the Chicago-Atlanta-Florida market instead of New Orleans? The CONO is not that great of a performer and the Chicago-Memphis-New Orleans market is a very small one compared to Chicago-Florida. No new equipment would be required and a lot of the stations at major cities Chicago-Florida already exist. The states along the route can pay the chump change for additional sidings on the CSX line through Evansville. It would seem like a better use of equipment/funding than the current CONO.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Actually, believe it or not, the CONO is considered to be in the top third of performers for Amtrak:

Copied From Amtrak's website, From California Zephyr

PRIIA Section 210 Performance Improvement Plan:

Amtrak ranked the long-distance routes using a composite score, which includes

customer satisfaction (CSI), on-time performance (OTP), and cost recovery (CR). Fiscal

year 2008 is the performance baseline for the scores. The following chart shows

Amtrak’s ranking of long-distance services for purposes of PRIIA Section 210. The dates

at the left show the years in which Amtrak will perform the work.

The program commenced in FY 2010 with analysis of the five worst performing routes

(the bottom third) and will continue for the next two years with the middle third and

top third of the routes. Amtrak must publish the Performance Improvement Plans

(PIPs) on its web site, and begin implementing the plans thereafter.

CSI OTP CR Avg.

Auto Train 84% 82% 88% 84%

Empire Builder 82% 69% 66% 72%

Southwest Chief 79% 65% 53% 66%

City of New Orleans 78% 62% 53% 65%

Coast Starlight 79% 61% 49% 63%

Silver Meteor 74% 66% 49% 63%

Crescent 76% 67% 46% 63%

Palmetto 72% 52% 61% 62%

Lake Shore Ltd. 70% 58% 44% 57%

Silver Star 75% 45% 43% 54%

Capitol Ltd. 77% 33% 48% 53%

California Zephyr 77% 30% 45% 51%

Texas Eagle 70% 18% 46% 44%

Cardinal 66% 31% 35% 44%

Sunset Ltd. 75% 27% 24% 42%

 

[Trogdor]

Actually, the City of New Orleans is one of Amtrak's top long-distance trains, in terms of a composite score developed by the PRIIA law that requires Amtrak to review and recommend improvements on all long-distance services.

The reroute would require considerably more equipment, the "chump change" as you say is still in the hundreds of millions of dollars - money that none of the states between Chicago and Florida (with the possible exception of Illinois and Florida) are interested in spending on anything related to passenger rail.

While the ridership isn't at the top of Amtrak's LD list, it's not at the bottom, either, and given its limited consist, the ridership is actually pretty good (it has a higher average load factor than the LD network as a whole).

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Seems like we are on the same page Trogdor! :lol:

 

[abcnews]

Another improvement to the CONO could be obtained by eventually adding a connecting train in Memphis...

Memphis-Nashville-Knoxville, TriCities (Johnson City, Bristol, etc...), Roanoke, VA - Lynchburg- Charlottesville, VA - DC - NYP....

There is talk of someday adding that route. The new Lynchburg, VA service has certainly exceeded their expectations, so the idea is feasible. There is a large population in the following cities.. Nashville, Knoxville, Tri-Cities, Roanoke, and none of these areas have rail service.

So by adding a connecting train - The CONO could rake in big numbers from Memphis south to NOL. And maybe connect to Sunset Limited.

 

[dlagrua]

The Florida connection of the CONO could be made at NOL if the previous Sunset Limited service was restored Eastward to Florida. We've had many discussion on this but since the SL is not a well performing route Amtrak appears to be reluctant to reinstitute service. If you look at th statistics the SL's revenue is up 24% for FY 2010 but it still carries the least passengers of any route so maybe that has something to do with it. However, the CONO is doing well and could easliy be routed to Florida using the old SL eastern route. Time will tell.

 

[Donctor]

However, the CONO is doing well and could easliy be routed to Florida using the old SL eastern route. Time will tell.

I don't know what your definition of "easily" is, but it certainly wouldn't be something simple. Amtrak would have to negotiate with the host, find someone to pay for station work (and possibly track improvement), obtain more equipment, hire new crews, find someone to pay for actually running the service and the associated costs, etcetera. This isn't impossible, but it wouldn't make incredibly much sense in the near future, given the financial obstacles, noteworthy drawbacks and different nature of the two routes.

 

[Anderson]

Not only is CONO doing pretty well by most standards, it's been one of the biggest gainers in long-distance travel: It's stacked on about 50,000 people per year over since 2007: It was up a good bit in 2008, flat in 2009 (it posted a small marginal loss), and then way up this last year (in percentage terms, it was only exceeded by the Sunset Limited in increased transit...and the SL is recovering from having fallen on very hard times and ridership is so low that I'd argue the percentages there aren't strictly comparable).

The idea of a Memphis connection isn't a bad one. At the very least, the Lynchburg situation suggests that there are cases of demand in areas that don't have rail service...though in the case of Lynchburg, a lot of that can be chalked up to the fact that air service to Charlottesville (and frankly most of SW Virginia) is just lousy (and expensive). Amtrak fares are also competitive with the airlines ($160 roundtrip NYP-CVS versus over $200 for the cheapest flights).

 

[AlanB]

The Florida connection of the CONO could be made at NOL if the previous Sunset Limited service was restored Eastward to Florida. We've had many discussion on this but since the SL is not a well performing route Amtrak appears to be reluctant to reinstitute service. If you look at th statistics the SL's revenue is up 24% for FY 2010 but it still carries the least passengers of any route so maybe that has something to do with it. However, the CONO is doing well and could easliy be routed to Florida using the old SL eastern route. Time will tell.

The Sunset is the worst performing route in part because Amtrak has made it that way and it part because it only runs 3 days per week. Now the 3 days per week is harder to fix, as we're all seeing. Even though I don't like the Eagle/Sunset plan that was announced more than a year ago, finding the equipment for that plan is still a bit of an issue and getting UP to agree to it has been a huge issue.

But the rest of the issue making the Sunset the worst is Amtrak's fault because of its failure to restore the Sunset east. First let's look at some present day numbers. Last year the Sunset's total ridership was 91,684 with revenues of $9.96 Million. Contrast that with the other 3 day per week run, the Cardinal, which saw 107,053 riders and revenues of $6.38 Million. Looking deeper at the sleepers only we find 17,599 passengers on the Sunset and 6,377 on the Cardinal.

Now let's roll back the clock to 2003, pre-Katrina and pre-UP meltdown. Back in 2003 the Sunset saw 105,033 riders compared to the Cardinal with 72,230. Revenues were $11.93 Million for the Sunset vs $3.27 million. And sleepers saw 24,960 vs. 7,818.

Now Amtrak actually has built up ridership on the Sunset since the termination of the eastern section, but things would be so much better had they restored the eastern section back when CSX gave them permission. They are missing a big chunk of ridership and revenue by not running east of New Orleans. Yes, that also carries expenses with it, expenses that wouldn't be covered totally by the revenue. But the Sunset probably wouldn't be the worst performing LD train if the eastern section was restored.

It should also be noted that one thing that has helped the Cardinal is that in 2003 it was still running only to DC. Extending it up the corridor to NY, coupled with the generally increasing ridership across the board, has helped the Card's numbers.

 

[Richmond, Virginian]

Another improvement to the CONO could be obtained by eventually adding a connecting train in Memphis...

Memphis-Nashville-Knoxville, TriCities (Johnson City, Bristol, etc...), Roanoke, VA - Lynchburg- Charlottesville, VA - DC - NYP....

Yes, that would be nice, but read this:

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/35203-what-routes-would-you-add/page__st__80__p__264121entry264121

 

[Anderson]

A slow chunk of track is workable...and if you set this up as an overnight run, I think it would work. Thinking on the practical side of this, how far can you get a train running from DC south in this direction in 14-16 hours? Extending an evening run of the current WAS-LYH regional over the mountains would make sense..so how far can you get between 8:30 PM (Lynchburg right now) and 7:00 AM? Even if you slide things around to get to Roanoke before 9, you've got time to work with on this particular run. Basically, I think the time dynamics of a night train vs. a day train are a bit different.

 

[George Harris]

A slow chunk of track is workable...and if you set this up as an overnight run, I think it would work. Thinking on the practical side of this, how far can you get a train running from DC south in this direction in 14-16 hours? Extending an evening run of the current WAS-LYH regional over the mountains would make sense..so how far can you get between 8:30 PM (Lynchburg right now) and 7:00 AM? Even if you slide things around to get to Roanoke before 9, you've got time to work with on this particular run. Basically, I think the time dynamics of a night train vs. a day train are a bit different.

Sounds like a resurrection of the Birmingham Special. It hit Chattanooga at about 7:30am southbound. Of the three trains that ran Lynchburg-Roanoke-Knoxville-Chattanooga, it was always the lowest in ridership.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

A slow chunk of track is workable...and if you set this up as an overnight run, I think it would work. Thinking on the practical side of this, how far can you get a train running from DC south in this direction in 14-16 hours? Extending an evening run of the current WAS-LYH regional over the mountains would make sense..so how far can you get between 8:30 PM (Lynchburg right now) and 7:00 AM? Even if you slide things around to get to Roanoke before 9, you've got time to work with on this particular run. Basically, I think the time dynamics of a night train vs. a day train are a bit different.

Sounds like a resurrection of the Birmingham Special. It hit Chattanooga at about 7:30am southbound. Of the three trains that ran Lynchburg-Roanoke-Knoxville-Chattanooga, it was always the lowest in ridership.

An April 1959 Southern RR timetable shows this:

Birmingham Special lv Lynchburg 7.55 pm, lv Roanoke 9.16 pm arrive Chattanooga 7.10am

Tennessean lv Lynchburg 12.05 noon lv Roanoke 1.30 pm ar Chattanooga 12.05 midnight

Pelican lv Lynchburg 4.10 am,lv Roanoke 6 am ar Chattanooga 5.30 pm

My experience with these trains is the same as George Harris, that the Birmingham Special was the least used. When I would take a cab from the station to my UT college dorm in Knoxville, they knew to meet the Pelican and the Tennessean. They did not even know to meet the poor neglected BHM Special because not enough people rode it for them to be aware of it.

 

[Anderson]

Now that I know the train schedule to look for, I've got a "winner" of a sample timetable: Birmingham Special, 1941, with a through sleeper to Memphis:

http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track1/birmspecial194112.html

The short version:

Depart WAS at 4:50 PM, Arrive LYH at 9:32 PM.

Depart LYH at 9:50 PM, Arrive Knoxville (KNX for now) at 5:55 AM CST (6:55 AM EST)

Depart KNX at 6:05 AM, Arrive Chatanooga (CHT for now) at 8:50 AM

Depart CHT at 9:15 AM, Arrive Memphis 6:30 PM

Total travel time: 26 hours, 40 minutes.

Now, I know that the WAS-LYH train runs over an hour faster nowadays (Crescent takes 3:30 and the Regional 3:46 versus the 4:42 above), so knock an hour off for that right out of the gate, but let's just say that I see the issue here. I'm not sure if Knoxville-Nashville-Memphis would be faster or slower.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Now that I know the train schedule to look for, I've got a "winner" of a sample timetable: Birmingham Special, 1941, with a through sleeper to Memphis:

http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track1/birmspecial194112.html

The short version:

Depart WAS at 4:50 PM, Arrive LYH at 9:32 PM.

Depart LYH at 9:50 PM, Arrive Knoxville (KNX for now) at 5:55 AM CST (6:55 AM EST)

Depart KNX at 6:05 AM, Arrive Chatanooga (CHT for now) at 8:50 AM

Depart CHT at 9:15 AM, Arrive Memphis 6:30 PM

Total travel time: 26 hours, 40 minutes.

Now, I know that the WAS-LYH train runs over an hour faster nowadays (Crescent takes 3:30 and the Regional 3:46 versus the 4:42 above), so knock an hour off for that right out of the gate, but let's just say that I see the issue here. I'm not sure if Knoxville-Nashville-Memphis would be faster or slower.

But also keep in mind the Tennessean, a new streamliner in 1941. Not sure WHEN in 1941 it began.It replaced the slightly slower Memphis Special.The typical Tennessean schedule was leave Washington about 8 an arrive Memphis the next morning 7ish.

The advantage of the Tennessean over the Birmingham Special is that it was a solid through train from Washington to Memphis. The through sleeper on the BHM Special was gone by the early 50's if not the late 40's.

It would be shorter from Knoxville to Memphis via Nashville but that never got as much business,I do not think. Keep in mind that while you lose Nashville to Chattanooga you also gain Huntsville, AL,of astronaut fame.

Last but not least, Chattanooga is spelled with two "t"s

 

[dlagrua]

originally posted by AlanB Now Amtrak actually has built up ridership on the Sunset since the termination of the eastern section, but things would be so much better had they restored the eastern section back when CSX gave them permission. They are missing a big chunk of ridership and revenue by not running east of New Orleans. Yes, that also carries expenses with it, expenses that wouldn't be covered totally by the revenue. But the Sunset probably wouldn't be the worst performing LD train if the eastern section was restored

Alan: I thought that the official status the Sunset Limited Eastern connection to Florida enjoys was O.O.S. and not abandoned. It is my guess that Amtrak would not have to renegiotiate with the CSX railroad to reinstitute service. Yes some station cleanup and maintenance would be required, and a change of crew along the way necessary but its my understanding that the trackage is ready to go and it's being used daily by CSX for freight. With the three day per week schedule all Amtrak needs to do is keep the same train moving East to Florida. New equipment shouldn't be needed.

I really don't know where the problem lies outside of the fact that we hear reports that Amtrak expects the states along the routes to fund the service. Perhaps if the states just offered to paint and clean the stations and repave the parking lots,it might do it. In terms of the overall budget the cost would be peanuts.

 

[Anderson]

Now that I know the train schedule to look for, I've got a "winner" of a sample timetable: Birmingham Special, 1941, with a through sleeper to Memphis:

http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track1/birmspecial194112.html

The short version:

Depart WAS at 4:50 PM, Arrive LYH at 9:32 PM.

Depart LYH at 9:50 PM, Arrive Knoxville (KNX for now) at 5:55 AM CST (6:55 AM EST)

Depart KNX at 6:05 AM, Arrive Chatanooga (CHT for now) at 8:50 AM

Depart CHT at 9:15 AM, Arrive Memphis 6:30 PM

Total travel time: 26 hours, 40 minutes.

Now, I know that the WAS-LYH train runs over an hour faster nowadays (Crescent takes 3:30 and the Regional 3:46 versus the 4:42 above), so knock an hour off for that right out of the gate, but let's just say that I see the issue here. I'm not sure if Knoxville-Nashville-Memphis would be faster or slower.

But also keep in mind the Tennessean, a new streamliner in 1941. Not sure WHEN in 1941 it began.It replaced the slightly slower Memphis Special.The typical Tennessean schedule was leave Washington about 8 an arrive Memphis the next morning 7ish.

The advantage of the Tennessean over the Birmingham Special is that it was a solid through train from Washington to Memphis. The through sleeper on the BHM Special was gone by the early 50's if not the late 40's.

It would be shorter from Knoxville to Memphis via Nashville but that never got as much business,I do not think. Keep in mind that while you lose Nashville to Chattanooga you also gain Huntsville, AL,of astronaut fame.

Last but not least, Chattanooga is spelled with two "t"s

Good catch on the spelling. Now...was that leaving DC at 8 AM and arriving Memphis 7 AM? (24 hours accounting for time differences)?

 

[AlanB]

originally posted by AlanB Now Amtrak actually has built up ridership on the Sunset since the termination of the eastern section, but things would be so much better had they restored the eastern section back when CSX gave them permission. They are missing a big chunk of ridership and revenue by not running east of New Orleans. Yes, that also carries expenses with it, expenses that wouldn't be covered totally by the revenue. But the Sunset probably wouldn't be the worst performing LD train if the eastern section was restored

Alan: I thought that the official status the Sunset Limited Eastern connection to Florida enjoys was O.O.S. and not abandoned. It is my guess that Amtrak would not have to renegiotiate with the CSX railroad to reinstitute service. Yes some station cleanup and maintenance would be required, and a change of crew along the way necessary but its my understanding that the trackage is ready to go and it's being used daily by CSX for freight. With the three day per week schedule all Amtrak needs to do is keep the same train moving East to Florida. New equipment shouldn't be needed.

I really don't know where the problem lies outside of the fact that we hear reports that Amtrak expects the states along the routes to fund the service. Perhaps if the states just offered to paint and clean the stations and repave the parking lots,it might do it. In terms of the overall budget the cost would be peanuts.

Amtrak hasn't abandoned the route, it's officially suspended. But service is still terminated; it's not running.

And yes, as long as Amtrak resumes 3 day a week service, there is no need to renegotiate with CSX.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Now that I know the train schedule to look for, I've got a "winner" of a sample timetable: Birmingham Special, 1941, with a through sleeper to Memphis:

http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track1/birmspecial194112.html

The short version:

Depart WAS at 4:50 PM, Arrive LYH at 9:32 PM.

Depart LYH at 9:50 PM, Arrive Knoxville (KNX for now) at 5:55 AM CST (6:55 AM EST)

Depart KNX at 6:05 AM, Arrive Chatanooga (CHT for now) at 8:50 AM

Depart CHT at 9:15 AM, Arrive Memphis 6:30 PM

Total travel time: 26 hours, 40 minutes.

Now, I know that the WAS-LYH train runs over an hour faster nowadays (Crescent takes 3:30 and the Regional 3:46 versus the 4:42 above), so knock an hour off for that right out of the gate, but let's just say that I see the issue here. I'm not sure if Knoxville-Nashville-Memphis would be faster or slower.

But also keep in mind the Tennessean, a new streamliner in 1941. Not sure WHEN in 1941 it began.It replaced the slightly slower Memphis Special.The typical Tennessean schedule was leave Washington about 8 an arrive Memphis the next morning 7ish.

The advantage of the Tennessean over the Birmingham Special is that it was a solid through train from Washington to Memphis. The through sleeper on the BHM Special was gone by the early 50's if not the late 40's.

It would be shorter from Knoxville to Memphis via Nashville but that never got as much business,I do not think. Keep in mind that while you lose Nashville to Chattanooga you also gain Huntsville, AL,of astronaut fame.

Last but not least, Chattanooga is spelled with two "t"s

Good catch on the spelling. Now...was that leaving DC at 8 AM and arriving Memphis 7 AM? (24 hours accounting for time differences)?

I grew up in Chattanooga around these very trains.

here is a sample Tennessean schedule for January 1956.

lv WAS 8.am

lv lynchburg 12.05p

lv roanoke 1.30

lf bristol 5.40

lv knoxville 9.10

lv chattanooga 12.25 am

lv huntsville 1.44 am

ar memphis 7.15

The Birmingham Special from this same timetable left WAS 3.50 pm,ar chattanooga next morning 7.10 arrived Birmingham 9.30 The Memphis local which connected with the BHM Special in Chattanooga, left Chattanooga at 8am and got to Memphis at 4.10 pm

Feel free to pm me if you want more. I can send you a page which I have scanned and you will see all three trains (including the Pelican) in both directions and equipment.