Potential Horizon Re-use

[PVD]

Well the automatic doors on the NEC corridor mean that you don't have to have someone go to each door to open and close it at a high platform station. Think of a train with a conductor and a/c if they had to open and close every door at every station. Traps are for low platforms, they don't go away unless you are all high platform. I don't know the cars well enough to be sure, a safe guess is that when they got their accessibility make-over some time ago, they received an accessible toilet. I don't know if they have one or 2 toilets in a car. Old Amfleet 1 practice was in a 2 toilet car to change one, upgrade one, but I don't know how that applies to (potential) long distance use or if that is valid for Horizon. We just don't see them around here.

 

[R30A]

I'm not sure about the new signals. AFAIK, that piece of the BNSF was always CTC. What did happen was they upgraded things between Ft. Worth and Gainesville so that the maximum authorized speed went from 55 MPH to 79 MPH. North of Gainesville was always 79 MPH.

Thanks for the info.
However they did it, they did it. Again seems like very good investment of taxpayers' money.

If you look at the Heartland Flyer scheduled trip times, it has been reduced to 3 hours and 58 minutes from 4 hours and 14 minutes that it had several years ago. So it appears that the signal and grade crossing gate timing upgrades that allows the HF to run at higher speeds in Texas have been incorporated into the schedule. The HF has had a lousy year for on-time performance, but that was due to track work and weather problems. However, for September, the OTP was 77% so it may be improving.
As for the fate of the Horizon cars, interestingly enough there are 2 Horizon coach cars in LD configuration, one in wreck/storage an d one in active service of the 92 active Horizon cars. How do I know this? I found this thread lacking in information and went to the AASHTO HSR Next Gen website and found this page for the 514 Equipment Capital Subcommittee. Look for the link to the Capital Investment Plan (CIP) for Amtrak Equipment Deployed in State Corridor Service, dated October 27, 2015. If you want to see the projected overhaul schedule for the equipment used in state corridors and how much it is projected to cost the states and Amtrak for the next 5 years, IT IS ALL THERE in nitty gritty detail. Anderson and Nerodon can go to town on this one. The cost information in CIP document is worthy of its own thread.

The Horizons are discussed on pages 39 to 41. Interestingly the annual overhaul cost of $8 to $9 million a year share breakdown for the Horizon coach cars will shift from the states in FY2016, FY2017 to mostly on Amtrak in FY2019. Which of course reflects the arrival of the bi-level cars for the Midwest (well, assuming Nippon-Sharyo can meet the contract deadlines).

I saw that line in the document for LD Horizons. I don't think it is actually true. All 4 510XX Long Distance and all 4 515XX ADA Long Distance Horizon Coach cars were converted back to corridor configuration, and the 4 non ADA cars were rebuilt with ADA restrooms. I suppose it is possible that they converted 2 more and they are sitting in a shop, but if so I am pretty sure they aren't in use yet.

... they upgraded things between Ft. Worth and Gainesville so that the maximum authorized speed went from 55 MPH to 79 MPH.

... Again ... very good investment of taxpayers' money.

... Heartland Flyer scheduled trip times ... reduced to 3 hours and 58 minutes from 4 hours and 14 minutes that it had several years ago. ...

... interestingly enough there are 2 Horizon coach cars in LD configuration, one in wreck/storage and one in active service of the 92 active Horizon cars. ... the 514 Equipment Capital Subcommittee. ... Capital Investment Plan for Amtrak Equipment Deployed in State Corridor Service, dated October 27, 2015. ...

A Horizon or two in LD configuration. Wow. That means Amtrak has a rough idea of the cost of converting 90 corridor trains to LD trains, into much better corridor trains, from knowing what it cost way back when (adjusting for inflation.)

+++++

I'm still stuck on the doors. My brain has mobility issues, LOL.

Need to replace the current trap doors with automatic doors so that entry with wheelchair, baby carriage, or carry-on baggage would be easy. Well, could that even be done without cutting into adjoining vertical structural supports? So would any "toilet modules" have to go thru the front or back of the cars, instead of the side?

That all sounds seriously not cheap, and I'm not feeling modules. But we know something can be done if Amtrak already owns two LD configuration Horizons and has 90 more corridor cars to work with.

They already converted 8, then unconverted them, so I would think that they would know how much it costs! (of course, that was now decades ago, so costs easily could have changed.)

I don't see what toilet modules have to do with this- All single level Amtrak coaches not in a trainset have the same restroom configuration- 1 ADA, 1 non ADA. One Horizon is still numbered as if it has no ADA restroom (54000) but it has the first window blanked out, so I think it is pretty safe to assume that it too has an ADA restroom now, and they just never bothered to renumber it. Perhaps they wanted to leave the first Horizon with its old number for sentimental reasons

Also, remember that the Horizons were delivered with sliding doors. While you might need to find some room to install door motors, the door pockets are certainly there. Also, since the cars they were based off of do have door motors, perhaps the room is there anyway...

Well the automatic doors on the NEC corridor mean that you don't have to have someone go to each door to open and close it at a high platform station. Think of a train with a conductor and a/c if they had to open and close every door at every station. Traps are for low platforms, they don't go away unless you are all high platform. I don't know the cars well enough to be sure, a safe guess is that when they got their accessibility make-over some time ago, they received an accessible toilet. I don't know if they have one or 2 toilets in a car. Old Amfleet 1 practice was in a 2 toilet car to change one, upgrade one, but I don't know how that applies to (potential) long distance use or if that is valid for Horizon. We just don't see them around here.

All Amfleet 1, Amfleet 2, and Horizon coaches have two restrooms. the 1 and 2s have all had their modules changed in rebuilds over the last 2 decades, although not all were done at the same time (Some cars had the ADA restroom replaced years before the non-ADA restroom was replaced).

To me at least, the Horizon restrooms do not appear to be modular. A number of Horizons were built with ADA restrooms too, so those may well be original, and I think all the non ADA restrooms are as well. Many have had their toilet systems replaced over the years, so perhaps the cold is no longer as much of an issue with Horizon cars.

 

[PVD]

Thanks for the updates. I ride Amfleet I pretty regularly, occasionaly Am 2, but even if I'm LD in a Viewliner, I'll ussually walk through the Am 2 to stretch my legs. I've ridden various iterations of Superliners. But I have not spent minute one in a Horizon, they are something I've walked past or seen through the window after Chicago. I guess that's why my curiousity has been piqued on this whole issue.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

I've gloomed myself. Thinking about the repercussions of the crash test failure on the new bi-levels. On topic in this thread because, dayum, the Horizons can't head to Beech Grove to get fixed for new work until the bi-levels can replace them on the Midwestern routes. Delay causes delay.

If Amtrak had a plan to reuse the Horizons, they weren't telling. But they were gonna have 90+ cars in need of facelifts and new roles in life. Now the 90+ will not be arriving for another year or so?

Meanwhile I'd for sure planned to put them on the Sunset Shuttle New Orleans-San Antonio when the Texas Eagle/Sunset went daily. If Amtrak was thinking the same about using them there, then the whole dayum plan to go daily has been delayed.

And I was gonna put them on the City of New Orleans, and spread its replaced Superliners to needy trains across the West. That plan will be on hold for another year.

Gloom.

 

[Anderson]

My best guess is that the Horizons go one (or more) of three places:
-One option is North Carolina, which I believe is going to need more equipment for the next Piedmont or two.

-Another option would be service on the Crescent, Silvers, Palmetto, and/or Pennsylvanian as discussed. This would allow extra coach space to be provided on the eastern LD trains, possibly add capacity on the Adirondack, etc.

-The third option is as "generic" surge capacity for major holidays in the Midwest and/or East and as "excursion" equipment at other times. I can definitely see MI, IL, etc. taking advantage of the fleet. I could even see WA/OR taking advantage at Christmas/Thanksgiving, for example, and I could see Amtrak trying to build on the Autumn Express with some other scattered extra services, excursions, and the like if they can find a cooperative freight railroad.

 

[seat38a]

My best guess is that the Horizons go one (or more) of three places:

-One option is North Carolina, which I believe is going to need more equipment for the next Piedmont or two.

-Another option would be service on the Crescent, Silvers, Palmetto, and/or Pennsylvanian as discussed. This would allow extra coach space to be provided on the eastern LD trains, possibly add capacity on the Adirondack, etc.

-The third option is as "generic" surge capacity for major holidays in the Midwest and/or East and as "excursion" equipment at other times. I can definitely see MI, IL, etc. taking advantage of the fleet. I could even see WA/OR taking advantage at Christmas/Thanksgiving, for example, and I could see Amtrak trying to build on the Autumn Express with some other scattered extra services, excursions, and the like if they can find a cooperative freight railroad.

Are you talking about adding a separate train for the surges on OR / WA? Not sure otherwise how they would connect it to the Talgo's. I thought the Talgo's weren't flexible in adding and removing cars.

 

[seat38a]

Thanks, afigg, the report is fascinating.

So. They plan to keep using Horizons on the Hiawatha in 2020. I really expect that plan to change, 'cause that's putting them in the worst possible part of the country for them.

The plan for California explains something I was wondering about in another thread: all the Amtrak F59s are going to California, California is going to keep leasing them, and they are *all* going on the Surfliner route..

Is there any specific reason why pretty much all of the F59 fleet are out on the West Coast? Anything technical like freezing issues etc.?

 

[Seaboard92]

I'm personally hoping for the third option as that would help me in my charter service. I could see a set going to North Carolina as they want another Piedmont running. And I'm the last few years I've seen a timetable they drew up for a train from Charlotte to Charleston starting in Raleigh.

 

[jis]

Well the automatic doors on the NEC corridor mean that you don't have to have someone go to each door to open and close it at a high platform station. Think of a train with a conductor and a/c if they had to open and close every door at every station. Traps are for low platforms, they don't go away unless you are all high platform. I don't know the cars well enough to be sure, a safe guess is that when they got their accessibility make-over some time ago, they received an accessible toilet. I don't know if they have one or 2 toilets in a car. Old Amfleet 1 practice was in a 2 toilet car to change one, upgrade one, but I don't know how that applies to (potential) long distance use or if that is valid for Horizon. We just don't see them around here.

Yup. Traps and remote controlled doors are two entirely separate issue. All Amfleet Is have traps and they also have remote controlled doors. However they are still the old style traps which cannot be opened until the door is open, unlike the design used by NJT in which the traps can be operated independent of the remote controlled full length doors that enclose the stairs that hide under the traps. This has the added benefit that snow does not collect on those stairs. Of course the primary benefit is that the Conductors can operate the trap to the correct position for the next station stop while the train is in motion, and then remotely operate all doors.

Of course at low platform stations for wheelchair bound folks someone has to bring in one of those hand cranked wheelchair lifts to a select door and operate it to embark/disembark wheelchairs. Since none of the cars have built in wheelchair lifts that has to be done. Even if the cars had built in wheelchair lift it would require a staff to operate it. And even with remote controlled doors, at most high platforms station a staff member has to bring in a bridge plate to enable wheelchairs to embark/disembark.

 

[afigg]

My best guess is that the Horizons go one (or more) of three places:

-One option is North Carolina, which I believe is going to need more equipment for the next Piedmont or two.

-Another option would be service on the Crescent, Silvers, Palmetto, and/or Pennsylvanian as discussed. This would allow extra coach space to be provided on the eastern LD trains, possibly add capacity on the Adirondack, etc.

-The third option is as "generic" surge capacity for major holidays in the Midwest and/or East and as "excursion" equipment at other times. I can definitely see MI, IL, etc. taking advantage of the fleet. I could even see WA/OR taking advantage at Christmas/Thanksgiving, for example, and I could see Amtrak trying to build on the Autumn Express with some other scattered extra services, excursions, and the like if they can find a cooperative freight railroad.

As I recall, the HSIPR funds for NC included refurbishment of additional vintage 1950s cars the state already owns; enough to support 2 additional daily Piedmonts. NC DOT may or may not be short on locomotives, but there will be surplus F59PHI's by 2018 that they could acquire. So it is unlikely that any Horizon cars would end up on the Piedmont service as it would be different equipment to maintain with different spare parts.

Something to keep in mind when stating there are 90+ Horizons, that there are only 77 coach cars. The rest are cafe cars, 3 of which are leased to CalTrans. Until Wisconsin gets a new Governor and then allocates funding to buy new bi-level cars, the Hiawatha service will keep using Horizon equipment. Well, unless Amtrak offers to lease Superliner coach cars for the Hiawatha service that are freed up by the new Nippon-Sharyo bievels for more reliable service in winter. Then, assuming that N-S is able to build the 88 bi-levels allocated for the Midwest order in time, that still leaves the 3 Midwest states short for any significant service frequency expansions from what I can tell. So some of the Horizons may be kept around in the Midwest for service growth and reserve, until the states can find the money to order additional bi-level cars.

So it could be 40 to 50 Horizon coach cars plus some cafe cars that will be available to Amtrak to move eastward and figure out what to do with. Converting 20 to 25 to Amfleet II type seating for long or medium distance corridor use would go a long way to adding capacity for the east coast LD trains and the medium range corridor trains, the Pennsylvanian, Adirondack, Maple Leaf that don't spend much of the their route on the NEC.

 

[DSS&A]

Hi,

At least one of the Hiawatha train sets has been lengthened with a seventh car. It now has six coaches and a cafe/business class car and is on the 5:08pm northbound departure out of Chicago. I have seen this for over a month now. The other consist of either only six coaches, or it also has the same type of seventh car.

 

[TylerP42]

There was a horizon cafe on the 29 Capitol Limited today.