Potential Horizon Re-use
- Thread starter PVD
- Start date
Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:
- Status
Can't blame me for trying. Some of the responses were solid discussion with good points, I enjoy learning from others. Some folks are delusional. Not sure if the location of the thread would change that. It is an online discussion forum, I can't take it too seriously, I get to sit here while I wait for the doorbell to ring with trick or treaters, and watch the Met game simultaneously.
WoodyinNYC
Conductor
No doubt the seats will be taken out and the new rows will have standard LD seat pitch. A toilet and retention tank will be musts, modular nor not. The lighting will change to LEDs and the HVAC will get upgraded -- so much advance in technology the efficiency gains will pay for new lights and A/C. Then new carpeting, carpet is cheap, and the workers to install it look cheaper if you know what I mean, not exploited we hope but they're not overpaid.
OK, new seats, new lighting, new carpeting, new colors, how much more interior work could be needed? Looks like it's done.
Anything under the cars to winterproof them, lots of luck, might be costly but if possible, well worth it.
About the doors, I don't know enuff to say. But somehow riders on the state-supported routes have been able to board them for all these years.
Last edited by a moderator:
WoodyinNYC
Conductor
Don't do it!
"Please Mr Congresscritter, we need a few Billion to buy hundreds of new passenger cars."
"Then why the hell did you sell 95 cars for scrap?"
Amtrak knows better than to provoke a simple-minded Congresscritter like that. Amtrak will find a way to use the Horizons until after many hundreds of new cars arrive. So we can continue to speculate about that in this thread.
WoodyinNYC
Conductor
Can you expand on that platform situation please?
Otherwise, making the Heartland Flyer a single-level route could make use of 12-15 rehabbed Horizon cars, and free up 10 scarce Superliners for use elsewhere. I'd figured that Amtrak could offer a bargain price for using Horizons, and raise the price for using Superliners. Oklahoma and Texas don't want to spend on rail, so anything to cut the costs to those states would probably be accepted.
The 2018 date is not a problem. The bi-levels will still be coming off the assembly lines deep into 2017. Then the Horizons will get their make-overs, taking some months.
Last edited by a moderator:
keelhauled
OBS Chief
Re platforms, my guess is ADA requirements. Single level equipment on the Heartland Flyer would presumably necessitate at least mini high platforms.
WoodyinNYC
Conductor
Right. "Cold" isn't a one-size fits all word.
Superliners get put on the Pere Marquette, and maybe on the Blue Water and Wolverines in the winter. Well, the Pere Marquette runs thru a snow belt just off Lake Michigan, and there winter lasts for weeks and months.
I'm thinking that rehabbed Horizons would work on the City of New Orleans.
Yeah, it can get damn cold in the Windy City, but about six hours heading south it's crossed the Ohio. It's just not so cold. Maybe a problem could be the 11 hours in sitting in Chicago between the 9 a.m. NB arrival and the 8 p.m. SB departure. That seems more than enuff time to clean and fuel the train.
If sitting on tracks for 11 hours in Chicago is a problem in the winter, find a way to plug the HVAC into Commonwealth Edison and keep the car warm.
And I could see shaving 30 minutes, or an hour if pressed, off the lay-over time. Half an hour later the SB CONO reaches Memphis at 7 a.m. An hour later gets us there at 7:30. Not bad. Arriving in New Orleans at 4 or 4:30 p.m. should work as well as 3:30 does now. Then NB, leaving half an hour later at 2:15 gets into Memphis at 10:30 p.m. and arrives Chicago at 9:30 a.m. Not bad.
Anyway, putting Horizons on the CONO could use 35 or so of them.
Making the City of New Orleans a Horizon train would free up 25 or 30 Superliners, enuff to add a coach to, say, the Empire Builder and the Southwest Chief.
Last edited by a moderator:
WoodyinNYC
Conductor
When the Texas Eagle/Sunset Limited goes daily, maybe around 2017 or so, Amtrak will have a Shuttle between New Orleans and a cross-platform connection in San Antonio. The Sunset Shuttle will be a perfect use for rehabbed Horizons, warm and comfy in the winter. The plan is for only 3 or 4 coaches on the Shuttle, so that will only use 10 or 12 of them. Of course, running another frequency or two or three could make this New Orleans-Lafayette-Houston-San Antonio corridor really hum. We'll hold our breath until Louisiana and Texas decide to invest in this corridor.
Restoring train service on the the Sunset East route New Orleans-Florida could use another batch of rehabbed Horizons.
The City of New Orleans, the Shuttle, and trains restored to the Sunset East route would share a maintenance base in New Orleans. Horizons from the Heartland Flyer could get to New Orleans when they needed serious repairs.
If the Greenland ice cap melts, and it could happen too soon, there will be beachfront property near Baton Rouge. No need for trains running from the biggest city to the state capital in that case. But maybe before then someone will decide that using a train to cut emissions makes sense. So a short corridor Baton Rouge-New Orleans 8 times a day could happen. Likewise Mobile-Biloxi-New Orleans, say 4 times a day. These corridor services could use a big batch of Horizons.
Not least: Bobby Jindal proposed a new train, before he was told that because Obama was in favor of trains, all righteous and crazy Repubs had to be against them. But his idea, New Orleans-Baton Rouge-Alexandria-Shreveport-Marshall-Mineola-Dallas-Ft Worth, made good sense. And it would make a great place to use Horizons.
No place to use Horizons? I've created a shortage right here!
Restoring train service on the the Sunset East route New Orleans-Florida could use another batch of rehabbed Horizons.
The City of New Orleans, the Shuttle, and trains restored to the Sunset East route would share a maintenance base in New Orleans. Horizons from the Heartland Flyer could get to New Orleans when they needed serious repairs.
If the Greenland ice cap melts, and it could happen too soon, there will be beachfront property near Baton Rouge. No need for trains running from the biggest city to the state capital in that case. But maybe before then someone will decide that using a train to cut emissions makes sense. So a short corridor Baton Rouge-New Orleans 8 times a day could happen. Likewise Mobile-Biloxi-New Orleans, say 4 times a day. These corridor services could use a big batch of Horizons.
Not least: Bobby Jindal proposed a new train, before he was told that because Obama was in favor of trains, all righteous and crazy Repubs had to be against them. But his idea, New Orleans-Baton Rouge-Alexandria-Shreveport-Marshall-Mineola-Dallas-Ft Worth, made good sense. And it would make a great place to use Horizons.
No place to use Horizons? I've created a shortage right here!
Last edited by a moderator:
I've moved the (off-topic) discussion about the move to the Rail Advocacy category (and subsequent posts about the usefulness of said category) to the Site Improvements category. That discussion can be found here.
Please keep talk on this thread on-topic to Horizon Re-use.
Please keep talk on this thread on-topic to Horizon Re-use.
Last edited by a moderator:
neroden
Engineer
It's worth noting that the Horizons are modified versions of the Comet II, which was designed to run in New Jersey. So they can handle some cold.
What they can't handle well is the persistent subfreezing weather of (for example) the Downeaster route, the Hiawathas, the LSL, the Empire Builder, the Michigan service. Amtrak would really like to move them somewhere where they get thawed out daily. Anywhere in the southeast would work; the CONO would be fine.
What they can't handle well is the persistent subfreezing weather of (for example) the Downeaster route, the Hiawathas, the LSL, the Empire Builder, the Michigan service. Amtrak would really like to move them somewhere where they get thawed out daily. Anywhere in the southeast would work; the CONO would be fine.
Last edited by a moderator:
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
However, the fact that most Comet II trailers have no plumbing at all makes the comparison a little shaky.
But retrofitting freeze protection in the relatively meager plumbing that the Horizons do have should not be rocket science either.
But retrofitting freeze protection in the relatively meager plumbing that the Horizons do have should not be rocket science either.
WoodyinNYC
Conductor
According go trainweb.org/usarail, it uses three coaches and one coach/cafe car. Superliners carry a lot more seats, of course, so it would probably mean five Horizons, plus some food car, to replace that consist.
Sure would be sweet to see the Superliners on a daily Texas Eagle/Sunset and one of the other transcontinental LDs.
WoodyinNYC
Conductor
Can you expand on that platform situation please?
Off-topic question: Back when Stimulus money was falling from the sky, a grant went to put signals in an unsignaled stretch from Ft Worth towards the Oklahoma border. It was gonna cut almost 30 minutes out of the 4 hrs 14 min timetable. Doesn't "less than four hours" sound so much better? Then there was a problem of some sort to delay work and then ... Does anyone know what happened to this project?
Last edited by a moderator:
When boarding a single level car at a low platform, crew opens the traps to expose the stairs. unlike a high level platform which would be relatively level boarding. This makes it more difficult to board mobility limited passengers, particularly those in wheelchairs. It is easier to use either a ramp or lift to board a passenger to the lower level of a bi-level than up the stairs or through the narrower opening of a Horizon or Amfleet
I am not sure of when the ADA provision kicks in as to the need to change platform style, but it is not cut and dry as to how it can be accomplished because in some locations freights run on the same track the passenger trains station on, convential high platform does not allow required clearances. It is why they are testing a retractable platform in Ann Arbor Michigan.
I am not sure of when the ADA provision kicks in as to the need to change platform style, but it is not cut and dry as to how it can be accomplished because in some locations freights run on the same track the passenger trains station on, convential high platform does not allow required clearances. It is why they are testing a retractable platform in Ann Arbor Michigan.
Last edited by a moderator:
seat38a
Engineer
I'm sure we can take them here in California for extra frequency on the Surfliner. I'd love to see an even earlier morning departure going north and can also use one leaving SD around 5:30 PM. No freezing problems here.
Having been on the Horizon / Amfleet Surfliner couple of times, its a complete nightmare for seniors. You really don't realize what a blessing the Surfliner cars are until you see all the problems with boarding / offloading from the Horizon cars. Really bad for seniors but still not a joy for parents with kids and luggage. The disabled get access via the hand cranked lifts but manuvering through those doors is no pleasure for someone in a wheelchair. I saw a wheelchair passenger being boarded and it was a very very tight fit to get the chair through the doors.
Still having them for extra frequency would still be great.
Having been on the Horizon / Amfleet Surfliner couple of times, its a complete nightmare for seniors. You really don't realize what a blessing the Surfliner cars are until you see all the problems with boarding / offloading from the Horizon cars. Really bad for seniors but still not a joy for parents with kids and luggage. The disabled get access via the hand cranked lifts but manuvering through those doors is no pleasure for someone in a wheelchair. I saw a wheelchair passenger being boarded and it was a very very tight fit to get the chair through the doors.
Still having them for extra frequency would still be great.
Welcome to life on (nearly) all Midwest corridor trains. Stops at stations with moderate to heavy ridership certainly take quite a bit of time (I'm thinking of Kalamazoo, Normal, Springfield, etc.), even if it's mostly or all able-bodied passengers.
I'll be curious to see how tests with the retractable high-level platform at Ann Arbor work out - whether that ends up being a possible solution of sorts to using high-level equipment in low-level platform territory.
WoodyinNYC
Conductor
Thanks for the info.
However they did it, they did it. Again seems like very good investment of taxpayers' money.
If you look at the Heartland Flyer scheduled trip times, it has been reduced to 3 hours and 58 minutes from 4 hours and 14 minutes that it had several years ago. So it appears that the signal and grade crossing gate timing upgrades that allows the HF to run at higher speeds in Texas have been incorporated into the schedule. The HF has had a lousy year for on-time performance, but that was due to track work and weather problems. However, for September, the OTP was 77% so it may be improving.Thanks for the info.
However they did it, they did it. Again seems like very good investment of taxpayers' money.
As for the fate of the Horizon cars, interestingly enough there are 2 Horizon coach cars in LD configuration, one in wreck/storage an d one in active service of the 92 active Horizon cars. How do I know this? I found this thread lacking in information and went to the AASHTO HSR Next Gen website and found this page for the 514 Equipment Capital Subcommittee. Look for the link to the Capital Investment Plan (CIP) for Amtrak Equipment Deployed in State Corridor Service, dated October 27, 2015. If you want to see the projected overhaul schedule for the equipment used in state corridors and how much it is projected to cost the states and Amtrak for the next 5 years, IT IS ALL THERE in nitty gritty detail. Anderson and Nerodon can go to town on this one. The cost information in CIP document is worthy of its own thread.
The Horizons are discussed on pages 39 to 41. Interestingly the annual overhaul cost of $8 to $9 million a year share breakdown for the Horizon coach cars will shift from the states in FY2016, FY2017 to mostly on Amtrak in FY2019. Which of course reflects the arrival of the bi-level cars for the Midwest (well, assuming Nippon-Sharyo can meet the contract deadlines).
Your last point is extremely important, when the state owned cars go into service, the allocated share of maintenance on the Horizons they displace shifts back to Amtrak. I guess where I was trying to go with the discussion was; what added uses or purposes will they serve so that the revenue increase or expense reduction enabled by their re-use at least balances the shifted costs. Thank you for providing an additional source of information for those who enjoy a little "detail digging"
neroden
Engineer
Thanks, afigg, the report is fascinating.
So. They plan to keep using Horizons on the Hiawatha in 2020. I really expect that plan to change, 'cause that's putting them in the worst possible part of the country for them.
The plan for California explains something I was wondering about in another thread: all the Amtrak F59s are going to California, California is going to keep leasing them, and they are *all* going on the Surfliner route..
So. They plan to keep using Horizons on the Hiawatha in 2020. I really expect that plan to change, 'cause that's putting them in the worst possible part of the country for them.
The plan for California explains something I was wondering about in another thread: all the Amtrak F59s are going to California, California is going to keep leasing them, and they are *all* going on the Surfliner route..
WoodyinNYC
Conductor
A Horizon or two in LD configuration. Wow. That means Amtrak has a rough idea of the cost of converting 90 corridor cars to LD trains, into much better corridor cars, from knowing what it cost way back when (adjusting for inflation.)... Heartland Flyer scheduled trip times ... reduced to 3 hours and 58 minutes from 4 hours and 14 minutes that it had several years ago. ...... Again ... very good investment of taxpayers' money.
... interestingly enough there are 2 Horizon coach cars in LD configuration, one in wreck/storage and one in active service of the 92 active Horizon cars. ... the 514 Equipment Capital Subcommittee. ... Capital Investment Plan for Amtrak Equipment Deployed in State Corridor Service, dated October 27, 2015. ...
+++++
I'm still stuck on the doors. My brain has mobility issues, LOL.
Need to replace the current trap doors with automatic doors so that entry with wheelchair, baby carriage, or carry-on baggage would be easy. Well, could that even be done without cutting into adjoining vertical structural supports? So would any "toilet modules" have to go thru the front or back of the cars, instead of the side?
That all sounds seriously not cheap, and I'm not feeling modules. But we know something can be done if Amtrak already owns two LD configuration Horizons and has 90 more corridor cars to work with.
Last edited by a moderator:
- Status
Latest posts
-
St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago (TCMC) second daily service
- Latest: Mr.Technician
-
-
Acela 21 (Avelia Liberty) development, testing and deployment (2Q 2024)- Latest: JuniusLivonius
-
-
-
