PIP's (sorta) out

[johnny.menhennet]

Reading through the edition of Trains that arrived on the first of this month, there was a report about the PIP's. It listed the major improvement and major challenge to each of the last 5 routes to be reviewed. Apparently, these reports are out SOMEWHERE. The improvement listed for the CS was to replace the Arcade with a Business Class with PPC privileges, and the challenge listed was the capital cost for that specific refurbishment. For the EB, it was to add an extra sleeper and a CCC, and the problem with that was equip availability. For the SWC, it was to add connecting bus service to Denver? and Oklahoma City, and the problem was the impending reroute. For the CONO, it was connecting bus service to Meridian and Vicksburg, and capacity constraints were the listed issue. Last, on the AT, it was stated that they wanted to add a coach and two more auto racks to the consist, but the problem was that it would need CSX approval to go over 50 cars and that HEP had not been tested for more than 18 passenger cars.

I found it surprising that these reports had been released on some level, but not to the public. The article went on to talk about how the improvements recommended in the original PIP's were actually meaningful and important, but a lot of the suggestions now are more futile, in the sense that they would not have had as much importance as suggestions from 1 or 2 years ago.

Knowing now that the info is out, I hope it can be released publicly soon, because I'd love to get a chance to read them all of the way through.

 

[Trogdor]

Obviously, Amtrak is moving backwards on the Auto Train proposal. What they should be doing is ripping out all the coach seats and replacing them with a lie-flat, packed-like-sardines troop train configuration, because everybody would obviously prefer that to a reclining coach seat on a 16-hour run.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

Obviously, Amtrak is moving backwards on the Auto Train proposal. What they should be doing is ripping out all the coach seats and replacing them with a lie-flat, packed-like-sardines troop train configuration, because everybody would obviously prefer that to a reclining coach seat on a 16-hour run.

Hahahaha so true! Who would ever pay for just an "economy" or "coach" option? They definitely never sell out.

 

[afigg]

Reading through the edition of Trains that arrived on the first of this month, there was a report about the PIP's.

...

I found it surprising that these reports had been released on some level, but not to the public. The article went on to talk about how the improvements recommended in the original PIP's were actually meaningful and important, but a lot of the suggestions now are more futile, in the sense that they would not have had as much importance as suggestions from 1 or 2 years ago.

Knowing now that the info is out, I hope it can be released publicly soon, because I'd love to get a chance to read them all of the way through.

I had the electronic issue on my iPad for a few days, but had not gotten around to reading the December issue. My guess is that Amtrak shared a set of draft PIP reports with Trains Magazine, possibly expecting that the final drafts would be posted by the time the Trains magazine December issue was released. There is a comment in the Trains Magazine article about 2 suggestions whose capital costs are not fully fleshed out. Could be that the final drafts are waiting for final number crunching and/or getting signed off on by upper management. The August Monthly report has not been posted yet either, so Amtrak is falling behind on posting documents to the website. OTOH, the November Amtrak Ink was posted a couple of days ago.

The big problem holding back the implementation of many of the recommendations in the past reports and these new ones remains the lack of equipment or waiting on various improvement projects. Once the new CAF Viewliners arrive in sufficient numbers, some of the recommendations for the eastern single level LD trains can be implemented. The major changes for the Crescent are waiting on a new station in Atlanta and I came across a proposal of sorts seeking developers for the proposed station property location, so that is being worked on. But a new station in Atlanta, even a "quick" build project, will take years.

My bet (well, assuming Obama wins next week), is that Amtrak will take another run at UP in 2+ years on a daily Sunset Limited because by then UP will have completed more of the double tracking project, if not close to finishing it.

 

[Anderson]

Ok, you know what? If the reports don't come out by the end of next week, it's FOIA time. Mind you, I don't want to FOIA (I know why certain information isn't released to the public...I can't actually say why I get the picture now, but let's just say that the point was made to me quite emphatically...and I also don't want to slam Amtrak with anymore headaches), but these reports were legally due out a month ago.

As to the reports themselves:

The improvement listed for the CS was to replace the Arcade with a Business Class with PPC privileges, and the challenge listed was the capital cost for that specific refurbishment.

-This seems comparatively cheap, all things considered. I'd actually think this could be buried in an overhaul budget of some sort. I do like this, though. One thing that I wonder is what the BC will involve, seating-wise.

For the EB, it was to add an extra sleeper and a CCC, and the problem with that was equip availability.

-Yeah, equipment availability is always going to be the issue. It's a pity they couldn't work 2-3 more bilevel sleeper plans in, or they might actually be able to hand Congress a reasonable base for a bilevel sleeper request.

For the SWC, it was to add connecting bus service to Denver? and Oklahoma City, and the problem was the impending reroute.

-Huh. I like the OKC connection idea (I'm guessing into eastern KS?). The Denver connection already exists, but it's...*ahem* a dog.

For the CONO, it was connecting bus service to Meridian and Vicksburg, and capacity constraints were the listed issue.

-Capacity constraints as an issue here. My how times can change (considering that ridership here was under 200k as recently as FY09). Still, this seems somewhat dubious considering how much of the ridership is contained to the northern end of the route. Almost 20% of the ridership is intrastate in IL, and just under 30% is to/from MEM (a lot of it being on the northern end). I'm wondering if a Memphis cut-off coach might not be in order here.

Last, on the AT, it was stated that they wanted to add a coach and two more auto racks to the consist, but the problem was that it would need CSX approval to go over 50 cars and that HEP had not been tested for more than 18 passenger cars.

-I'm guessing that the issue here may be with sidings. With HEP, I'd think that a test would be doable; more likely are to be some passing siding limits.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

Anderson I agree with all of what you said. Not only do the BC seating reconfigurations seem smart, but they should not cost a lot. Whether they do or not, I was merely the messenger, and that is what the report said. I think cut-off cars in general would definitely be useful for Memphis. What I was surprised not to see was the plan to convert the CONO to single-level equipment. I think that is much more noteworthy than 2 thruway buses from Jackson (although, mind you, I find that buses from Jackson more than anywhere else would be incredibly helpful, because that would boost service from Jackson slightly in both directions, thereby making slightly more equal the huge differences in capacity between north of/south of Memphis.

 

[Trogdor]

Convert the City of New Orleans to single-level with what equipment?

There are no single-level coaches available in the short-term, nor any lounges/food-service cars (the Viewliner diners, as far as I can tell, don't have a setup to act as a cafe car).

You'd need three sets to operate a daily City of New Orleans (while only freeing two sets of Superliners due to the current run-through with the Texas Eagle).

 

[Eric S]

For the SWC Thruway connections, I wonder which direction they would connect, to/from Kansas City/Chicago, or to/from Albuquerque/Los Angeles.

For Oklahoma City to/from Kansas City/Chicago, the shortest bus route would be OKC-NEW (straight shot on I-35/I-135), with a potential stop in Wichita, although the times would be, oh, less than ideal. If/when the SWC is rerouted to BNSF's Transcon, then OKC-Wichita would work. I suppose it could also run OKC-KCY, like the former Jefferson Lines Thruway connection did, but that's a longer bus ride. Also, with the existing SWC schedule, running OKC-NEW (or OKC-Wichita) is easily done with one bus serving both Trains 3 & 4.

For Oklahoma City to/from Albuquerque/Los Angeles, running OKC-ABQ seems like a rather long bus trip, but after a potential reroute to the Transcon, OKC-Amarillo is more reasonable.

For Denver to/from Albuquerque/Los Angeles, perhaps just replacing the current Greyhound Thruway connection DEN-RAT (or DEN-ABQ after a reroute) with a dedicated connection is best.

For Denver to/from Kansas City/Chicago, running a DEN-LAJ bus (for the current SWC routing) perhaps works, but after a rerouting, just sticking with DEN-ABQ might be one of the better options.

 

[Nathanael]

Reading through the edition of Trains that arrived on the first of this month, there was a report about the PIP's. It listed the major improvement and major challenge to each of the last 5 routes to be reviewed. Apparently, these reports are out SOMEWHERE. The improvement listed for the CS was to replace the Arcade with a Business Class with PPC privileges, and the challenge listed was the capital cost for that specific refurbishment.

Makes sense. The Arcade isn't working (hasn't been for a few years) and is an obsolete idea anyway. The PPC isn't anywhere near full on a typical trip, while the Sightseer Lounge is jammed. This proposal solves several problems at once. I'd guess Amtrak would do this ASAP. First it has to scrounge up enough coaches to *run* while the Arcade coaches are being converted, though -- no good to delete a coach from a routinely-full train. This points back to the fact that Amtrak needs new equipment. Of course, Amtrak needs to replace the PPCs soon too, which points back to...

For the EB, it was to add an extra sleeper and a CCC, and the problem with that was equip availability.

Logical. The CCC is to alleviate diner congestion, I presume, and to provide better service on the Portland branch? Again, if the equipment could be found, I'm sure Amtrak would do it immediately. This points back, again, to the fact the Amtrak needs new equipment.

For the SWC, it was to add connecting bus service to Denver? and Oklahoma City, and the problem was the impending reroute.

Finally, an improvement which doesn't need new equipment. The OKC connection would be viable regardless of the reroute, so perhaps we'll see that happen soon. Denver is a trickier matter. It already has Thruway bus service connecting to Raton, but the scheduling is tight from one side and inconvenient from the other side, and it would be threatened by the reroute. I'd be very interested to read the narrative text explaining what Amtrak is thinking regarding this.

For the CONO, it was connecting bus service to Meridian and Vicksburg, and capacity constraints were the listed issue.

...meaning, need more equipment on the CONO? So....

Last, on the AT, it was stated that they wanted to add a coach and two more auto racks to the consist, but the problem was that it would need CSX approval to go over 50 cars and that HEP had not been tested for more than 18 passenger cars.

Well, perhaps we'll see the HEP tested soon. I don't see why CSX would refuse. Of course this requires more equipment, right?

I found it surprising that these reports had been released on some level, but not to the public.

I find this surprising too.

The sum total conclusion from all the PIPs put together is "Amtrak needs more rolling stock". I hope to see a rolling stock order in the new year -- Amtrak really really needs it.

 

[jis]

A lot will depend on how the election turns out.

(null)

 

[AlanB]

For the EB, it was to add an extra sleeper and a CCC, and the problem with that was equip availability.

Logical. The CCC is to alleviate diner congestion, I presume, and to provide better service on the Portland branch? Again, if the equipment could be found, I'm sure Amtrak would do it immediately. This points back, again, to the fact the Amtrak needs new equipment.

Actually this was the original plan for the Superliner cars that were restored using the Stimulus money. Then along came the daily Sunset plan, which seemed to cause the EB plan to be scrapped/put on hold. The interesting thing is, what happened to those extra cars that never went to the Sunset? And why has the EB plan not been brought back to life with those cars?

 

[Anderson]

Convert the City of New Orleans to single-level with what equipment?

There are no single-level coaches available in the short-term, nor any lounges/food-service cars (the Viewliner diners, as far as I can tell, don't have a setup to act as a cafe car).

You'd need three sets to operate a daily City of New Orleans (while only freeing two sets of Superliners due to the current run-through with the Texas Eagle).

There's been chatter on that front for a while that, with the Viewliner sleepers, Amtrak wants to do this to free up some Superliners. I think someone in management has mentioned a desire to this effect. That there is a desire to do this doesn't mean that there's an ability to do so, but it's been bounced around. So have things like an SWC Auto Train, etc. They've been tossed around, but that doesn't mean they're doable at the moment.

Of course, with the work being done at Wilmington right now (mocking up a new LD coach), this may happen all the same...if you get a bunch of new LD coaches, you can either convert some coaches back to cafes or throw a cafe order on top of that order. Mind you, this is a longer-term thing, but the idea still stands (and these plans mostly aren't "implement next week" plans).

 

[trainman74]

The improvement listed for the CS was to replace the Arcade with a Business Class with PPC privileges...

Can't help wondering how they'll enforce that -- VIP wristbands?

(I know, I know, I'm pretty sure the answer will be "show your phone or e-ticket receipt to the PPC attendant.")

 

[Anderson]

The improvement listed for the CS was to replace the Arcade with a Business Class with PPC privileges...

Can't help wondering how they'll enforce that -- VIP wristbands?

(I know, I know, I'm pretty sure the answer will be "show your phone or e-ticket receipt to the PPC attendant.")

I suspect that's more or less what it is as-is now. After all, I would assume that once in a while a few sleeper passengers have gotten stuck going to the SSL/Cafe for...well, something. Even if it's just the windows for a camera shot.

 

[dart330]

The OKC-NEW thruway would be a very nice addition. This would save you 24 hours just getting to CHI from OKC. I don't think we are going to get the Heartland Flyer extended to NEW anytime in the next decade thanks to KS.

 

[afigg]

Ok, you know what? If the reports don't come out by the end of next week, it's FOIA time.

Well, the August 2012 monthly report has been posted, so that's available to discuss. A quick skim of the August report shows a good month, but personnel expenses are still running well above the budget. The end of FY September report will be the key one for route performance metrics, whenever that is released. The August MPR is a topic for another thread, though.

 

[Eric S]

The OKC-NEW thruway would be a very nice addition. This would save you 24 hours just getting to CHI from OKC. I don't think we are going to get the Heartland Flyer extended to NEW anytime in the next decade thanks to KS.

I agree. And the current train schedules (for SWC and HF) work quite well for this.

Northbound HF arrives OKC at 9:39pm

Northbound Thruway, depart OKC at about 10:00pm, arrive NEW around 2:00am

Both SWCs (3 & 4) come through between 2:30am and 3:00am

Southbound Thruway, depart NEW at about 3:30am, arrive OKC around 7:30am

Southbound HF departs OKC 8:25am

That would seem to allow a modest schedule "cushion" for trains running somewhat late. A straight run OKC-NEW should take closer to 3 hours than 4 hours, so perhaps Wichita could be added as a Thruway bus stop.

 

[Anderson]

Ok, you know what? If the reports don't come out by the end of next week, it's FOIA time.

Well, the August 2012 monthly report has been posted, so that's available to discuss. A quick skim of the August report shows a good month, but personnel expenses are still running well above the budget. The end of FY September report will be the key one for route performance metrics, whenever that is released. The August MPR is a topic for another thread, though.

Yeah, I'm already on it. Give me a few hours and I'll have some thoughts ready.

 

[guest in the west]

Hard to understand what type of BC seating on the CS would be more comfortable than the present LD coach seating? Maybe a BC ticket would just include access to the PPC, or maybe one free meal in the diner? Otherwise, what is Amtrak going to install? Flat-bed seats like airplane BC configurations? Already, riders with knowledge of Amtrak consists regularly foresake Pacific Surfliner BC for Superliner coach seating that is almost always part of a Surfliner consist due to Surfliner car shortages. You get a far more comfortable seat, with head AND leg rests, with NO extra fare, in return for sacrificing a free box of apple juice and stale muffin/pastry in the morning, or a pedestrian box of tiny snacks in the afternnoon/evening (and a copy of that great national newspaper, USA Today aka McPaper).

 

[Blackwolf]

Makes sense. The Arcade isn't working (hasn't been for a few years) and is an obsolete idea anyway. The PPC isn't anywhere near full on a typical trip, while the Sightseer Lounge is jammed. This proposal solves several problems at once. I'd guess Amtrak would do this ASAP. First it has to scrounge up enough coaches to *run* while the Arcade coaches are being converted, though -- no good to delete a coach from a routinely-full train. This points back to the fact that Amtrak needs new equipment. Of course, Amtrak needs to replace the PPCs soon too, which points back to...

Actually, the arcades have been entirely removed from all four consists already. Having ridden #11 twice in one week between Sacramento and the Bay Area (just this morning was one such trip, actually,) I can personally vouch that the machines are long gone. The now former Arcade car has not had anything installed in place of the machines, on the other hand. Instead, it is all empty floor space that quite a few coach passengers have taken over during the night in order to sleep lying flat. It is actually quite an eyesore for anyone not expecting it, resembling a homeless encampment/flophouse on rails. The Car Attendant even got into it with two passengers this morning just after Davis when she tried to 'evict' them from the space, and they flat out refused to return to their assigned seats. It almost led to an unplanned stop and two fewer passengers on the manifest when the conductor became involved.

As a result, I would feel pretty comfortable that Amtrak has pending plans to install the new Business Class seating the next time these cars go in for their annual FRA inspections. No real loss, just substitute a standard 72-seat coach times 4 after the holiday rush, and bang out the first Amtrak BC option experiment.

Hard to understand what type of BC seating on the CS would be more comfortable than the present LD coach seating? Maybe a BC ticket would just include access to the PPC, or maybe one free meal in the diner? Otherwise, what is Amtrak going to install? Flat-bed seats like airplane BC configurations? Already, riders with knowledge of Amtrak consists regularly foresake Pacific Surfliner BC for Superliner coach seating that is almost always part of a Surfliner consist due to Surfliner car shortages. You get a far more comfortable seat, with head AND leg rests, with NO extra fare, in return for sacrificing a free box of apple juice and stale muffin/pastry in the morning, or a pedestrian box of tiny snacks in the afternnoon/evening (and a copy of that great national newspaper, USA Today aka McPaper).

Maybe the BC upgrade would only include PPC access and included meals in the Diner? But I have a hunch the seats will be the 2-1 leather Metroliner seating found in some BC cabins on the East Coast trains. Why do I think this? Because they are citing cost as being a factor to impliment the new class. There is no cost involved with just putting the standard LD seating back in; Amtrak has pallets of these seat sitting in warehouses and could install them in less than one workday. There would be cost in having new seats manufactured to the specifications of the Metroliner-style seats. Looking at the space available, I see four rows working. 4 x 3 equals 12 seats per train. A no brainer, as this is an experiment. Its easier to fill a cabin of that size, and make the numbers look very impressive for documents being brought beneath the noses of budget hawks. Will probably even have a chance of breaking even in a few years, if/when it is called a success, and spawn the idea to be continued in larger numbers on other LD routes.

One can hope, right?

 

[Anderson]

So, basically assume about 60-75 seats in the order (12 seats x 5 cars to ensure at least a single backup is around, plus a few spares in the order)? That shouldn't be too bad.

 

[Nathanael]

For the EB, it was to add an extra sleeper and a CCC, and the problem with that was equip availability.

Logical. The CCC is to alleviate diner congestion, I presume, and to provide better service on the Portland branch? Again, if the equipment could be found, I'm sure Amtrak would do it immediately. This points back, again, to the fact the Amtrak needs new equipment.

Actually this was the original plan for the Superliner cars that were restored using the Stimulus money. Then along came the daily Sunset plan, which seemed to cause the EB plan to be scrapped/put on hold. The interesting thing is, what happened to those extra cars that never went to the Sunset? And why has the EB plan not been brought back to life with those cars?

I believe most of those were absorbed in the extra (sixth) trainset which was assembled for the Empire Builder due to the recent delays. (And a few cars have been wrecked since then too.) Has the Empire Builder gone back to five trainsets yet? If so, we might be able to see some of this happen.

 

[AlanB]

For the EB, it was to add an extra sleeper and a CCC, and the problem with that was equip availability.

Logical. The CCC is to alleviate diner congestion, I presume, and to provide better service on the Portland branch? Again, if the equipment could be found, I'm sure Amtrak would do it immediately. This points back, again, to the fact the Amtrak needs new equipment.

Actually this was the original plan for the Superliner cars that were restored using the Stimulus money. Then along came the daily Sunset plan, which seemed to cause the EB plan to be scrapped/put on hold. The interesting thing is, what happened to those extra cars that never went to the Sunset? And why has the EB plan not been brought back to life with those cars?

I believe most of those were absorbed in the extra (sixth) trainset which was assembled for the Empire Builder due to the recent delays. (And a few cars have been wrecked since then too.) Has the Empire Builder gone back to five trainsets yet? If so, we might be able to see some of this happen.

AFAIK the 6th set was knocked apart and redeployed.

 

[VentureForth]

Obviously, Amtrak is moving backwards on the Auto Train proposal. What they should be doing is ripping out all the coach seats and replacing them with a lie-flat, packed-like-sardines troop train configuration, because everybody would obviously prefer that to a reclining coach seat on a 16-hour run.

Hahahaha so true! Who would ever pay for just an "economy" or "coach" option? They definitely never sell out.

...only because it's the only other option that's affordable?

 

[Amtrak Cajun]

The only way the CONO could be single level is if they stopped running the equipment through onto the Texas Eagle. The last two times Ive ridden the CONO, it was sold out departing CHI. That to me is enough reason to keep it Superliner equipment only. Unless you added more single level cars to the consist similar to the LSL, to accomodate more passengers.

As it stands, unless Amtrak can get new cars ordered and received, the sharing of the TE/CONO sets wont be ending anytime soon.

A Business Class area on the CS? Sounds interesting. I would like to see how they implement that.