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I believe any discussion concerning 'debt' has indeed fallen by the wayside as it has no bearing on this or any other discussion on here. If Mr. Ryan wants to have a reasonable discussion concerning politics or the national budget that can be done on some other venue. I have no interest in discussing anything with someone that punctuates the discussion with personal attacks.
Then you probably shouldn't have brought it up. In fact, if you're not willing to have your ideas critiqued, you should keep them to yourself.

As far as complaining about "personal attacks", which one of us typed the following? "Your a real wise ass aren't you. Typical of the northeast, rude, arrogant, ignorant and stupid."

Now. Do you want to actually discuss the topic at hand, or continue this silly line of conversation?
 
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I tire of the "Lets have Amtrak make more efficient use of their cars, they have too many in storage" nonsense, because it is simply not true.

Amtrak, at the completion of the Stimulus repair program, will have perhaps a half dozen cars that are economically repairable, and they will be repaired as part of the standard BG/Bear repair operations. Many of the cars going back into service out of Beech Grove and some of the cars going back into service out of Bear are not economically repairable. They are being repaired at costs that are higher than a single car would cost on a reasonably sized order.

The idea that Amtrak is not bothering to fix cars they have laying around is a popular misconception perpetuated by people who want pork roll services added and need to justify its low cost by saying "And, y'all remember Amtrak won't need no new equipment to run mah train, hoo-whee!" The rotting shells of what were once rail cars sitting in Beech Grove should not be confused with repairable, serviceable equipment.

And the reason people complain about their train having broken and or shoddy equipment isn't because the equipment is languishing around getting needed repairs and servicing. Its because they throw them back out on to the road as fast as they can.
 
It seems to me that the Capital Limited really should remain Superliner. Otherwise, there is no premiere "East-West train to the midwest/west coast from the East Coast. Either that, or at least make the Cardinal a Superliner daily train from Washington.

The Superliner look is the new look of Amtrak - there should be at least one SL train running from DC to Chicago. Also - remember the old saying... "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Not sure that they should mess with the success of the Capital Limited. It seems to have big ridership numbers as it is.
I'm not sure how the Superliner got to be the "new look of Amtrak", after all the Viewliner cars are much newer.

That aside, the Capitol isn't that big of a success. It does sell more sleepers than the the LSL does, yet the LSL brings in far more revenue for its sleepers than does the Capitol. And then overall coach & sleepers combined, the LSL carried 364,460 while the Capitol carried 218,956 and generated $9 Million more in revenue.
 
The LSL would be a great train if it left Chicago about 3 hours earlier. I can't for the life of me understand why they run the only Chicago to NYP train as the "clean up" train from Chicago. Because of this it runs into NYP in the middle of rush hour. If they would put this proposal through, they should move the departure time to 9:00pm, use it as the clean up to all points in the East... cut down on the waiting time in Pittsburgh and it can still roughly follow the scheduled times of the current Pennsylvanian. The LSL can move to the 6:30pm departure and get to NY around 3:00pm
 
I'm not sure how the Superliner got to be the "new look of Amtrak", after all the Viewliner cars are much newer.

That aside, the Capitol isn't that big of a success. It does sell more sleepers than the the LSL does, yet the LSL brings in far more revenue for its sleepers than does the Capitol. And then overall coach & sleepers combined, the LSL carried 364,460 while the Capitol carried 218,956 and generated $9 Million more in revenue.
I think the LSL is probably the most capacity constrained train among the LDs. If a few more sleepers and coaches could be added to the LSL, it would probably perform even better, but then unfortunately there is not the equipment needed available, so here we are where we are.

Indeed the proposed Broadway Limited-let, a.k.a. the cars connecting from the Pennsy to the Cap at PGH would most likely reduce the capacity pressure on the LSL some.
 
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It seems to me that the Capital Limited really should remain Superliner. Otherwise, there is no premiere "East-West train to the midwest/west coast from the East Coast. Either that, or at least make the Cardinal a Superliner daily train from Washington.

The Superliner look is the new look of Amtrak - there should be at least one SL train running from DC to Chicago. Also - remember the old saying... "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Not sure that they should mess with the success of the Capital Limited. It seems to have big ridership numbers as it is.
I'm not sure how the Superliner got to be the "new look of Amtrak", after all the Viewliner cars are much newer.

That aside, the Capitol isn't that big of a success. It does sell more sleepers than the the LSL does, yet the LSL brings in far more revenue for its sleepers than does the Capitol. And then overall coach & sleepers combined, the LSL carried 364,460 while the Capitol carried 218,956 and generated $9 Million more in revenue.
Part of that is the LSL serves NYP and BOS directly, while the CL serves WAS directly and NYP indirectly.

Additionally the LSL serves more populous intermediate stops. While they serve virtually identical cities up to Cleveland, the CLs stops at ALC, PGH, CUM, HFY, ect. are not as large cities as the LSLS stops through NY state and Mass.

I think that because the Penny and the CL are such close siblings the focus should be on improving service on the Penny to allow for one seat rides to CHI through those stops in Pennsylvamia. It may somewhat divide the CHI-NYP pax, but what it takes away from the LSL should be negligible compared to the number of people it picks up through direct service to/from CHI and PHL, HAR, ect.
 
Hey Alan - I'm not sure it is really fair to compare the Capital Limited head to head with the LSL (from strictly a financial standpoint). After all - the LSL serves New York (and Boston), the Capital Limited just serves Washington, DC. In a way, comparing the revenue of the two trains head to head is a bit like comparing the attendance/revenue of the Washington Nationals baseball team to the combined revenue of the New York Yankees and New York Mets. And maybe throw in the Red Sox too. Washington, DC can not match the numbers New York can produce. New York is huge, more people, more money and more travelers.

I think Dallas, Atlanta and Houston are better comparisons as city matches in regards to population, and comparing revenue and passengers. Maybe compare the Capital Limited with the Texas Eagle - and see how it compares to that train - rather than the LSL.

I'm thinking that the Capital Limited is quite a success. Maybe I'm wrong...
 
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I'm thinking that the Capital Limited is quite a success. Maybe I'm wrong...
Actually the 5 bottommost performers were evaluated in the first year under PRIIA and that included the Cap. Next year is the turn for the next 5 and that includes all the single level LD trains, including LSL, AFAIR. One of the dubious distinctions that LSL has is the lowest customer satisfaction index. But still hoardes of people ride that train.

Incidentally the Cap has better cost recovery than the LSL, but much much lower ridership. What kills it overall is OTP or lack thereof. Generally Superliner equipped trains have better cost recovery than single level trains. But some of the eastern single level LD trains have remarkable ridership given the limited capacity that they have.

There are only three LD trains with higher than 60% cost recovery, those being the Auto Train, the Empire Builder and the Palmetto.
 
That aside, the Capitol isn't that big of a success. It does sell more sleepers than the the LSL does, yet the LSL brings in far more revenue for its sleepers than does the Capitol. And then overall coach & sleepers combined, the LSL carried 364,460 while the Capitol carried 218,956 and generated $9 Million more in revenue.
The revenue numbers for FY10 don't show that the LSL brings in far more revenue than the CL for sleepers. The LSL makes more total revenue, but it hits more cities during reasonable hours and probably has a sizable number of riders taking it between Buffalo - Albany stops to NYC and to Springfield, Worcester & Boston. The PRIIA report on the Capitol Limited notes that it has a very high percentage of overall endpoint ridership with 39% going CHI-WAS, and 14% CHI-PIT. If the CL could run between Cleveland, Pittsburgh and DC at hours that don't include 1:45 AM, 2:50 AM, 5:05 AM, it might attract more ridership in coach between those cities.

The numbers in the September, 2010 Monthly report for all of FY10 for the LSL and CL:

FY10 Total Ticket Revenue:

LSL $27,978,505

CL $18,578,926 (Yep, over $9 million less than the LSL)

But for the sleeper class only?

LSL $8,707,486 (35,782 ridership)

CL $8,510,795 (46,489 ridership) - pretty much a tie in revenue, but more sleeper passengers.

Crazy thought that is getting off topic on the Pennsylvanian - although this thread is already doing that to some extent. Since Pittsburgh and Cleveland get such poor hours from the overnight LD trains, would it make sense for Amtrak to consider a Detroit - Toledo - Cleveland - Pittsburgh - DC daytime train? Or just a Cleveland - Pittsburgh - DC (or to PHL - NYC) daytime train? Obviously no equipment for it, not far enough to qualify as a LD train so state subsidies would be required, and dim prospects in getting subsidies from Ohio, but it (like so many other proposed routes) would fill in a gap in the system.
 
If you read deeper into the PRII plan they seriously considered combining the CL with the Silver Star, making the Silver Star a Chicago to Florida train with only connecting trains between DC and New York. Once the new cars start to appear in 2013 they plan to reconsider this option. So you could end up with an all single level CL/Silver Star with through cars Chicago to New York switched at Pittsburgh. Interesting.
 
That still doesn't make sense to have Star pax go from NYP/PHL to PGH then to WAS when they could just take the Meteor.
 
That still doesn't make sense to have Star pax go from NYP/PHL to PGH then to WAS when they could just take the Meteor.

Uuuuuuh what? The Silver Star would become a Chicago to Florida train running via Pittsburgh and DC. New York passengers would still have the Meteor. The Pennsylvanian would still be New York to Pittsburgh with some through cars to Chicago.
 
That still doesn't make sense to have Star pax go from NYP/PHL to PGH then to WAS when they could just take the Meteor.

Uuuuuuh what? The Silver Star would become a Chicago to Florida train running via Pittsburgh and DC. New York passengers would still have the Meteor. The Pennsylvanian would still be New York to Pittsburgh with some through cars to Chicago.
See that wouldn't make sense for pax between PGH and HAR, it would divide the pax load. They can take the Penny to PHL and board to Meteor, or board the Penny to PGH to get the Capitol-Star.

Not to mention cutting NYP out of the market is a HUGE mistake. There is enough demand to keep two NYP-MIA trains, your talking about removing one. Heck there's enough riders to justify a third NYP-MIA train, the Palmetto is only one step away from that.
 
If you read deeper into the PRII plan they seriously considered combining the CL with the Silver Star, making the Silver Star a Chicago to Florida train with only connecting trains between DC and New York. Once the new cars start to appear in 2013 they plan to reconsider this option. So you could end up with an all single level CL/Silver Star with through cars Chicago to New York switched at Pittsburgh. Interesting.
Sounds almost like an eastern "City of Everywhere"!
 
If you read deeper into the PRII plan they seriously considered combining the CL with the Silver Star, making the Silver Star a Chicago to Florida train with only connecting trains between DC and New York. Once the new cars start to appear in 2013 they plan to reconsider this option. So you could end up with an all single level CL/Silver Star with through cars Chicago to New York switched at Pittsburgh. Interesting.
Sounds almost like an eastern "City of Everywhere"!
*blinks*

Serious question: If they're going do do this, why not restore the Floridian via Atlanta and Savannah? Do a car swap in Savannah (merge the two overnight trains going on) with the Palmetto, and run the train north through Atlanta and Tennessee to meet up with the Kentucky Cardinal's old route. It'd run CHI-IND-Louisville-Chattanooga-ATL-SAV-JAX-ORL-MIA. This seems...a lot more sensible than running things through Pittsburgh if you're trying to sell a Chicago-Florida service, and you could throw Nashville in with a bus. Depending on the timing, this might also make for a more workable timetable with Indianapolis (which has an awful schedule with the Cardinal).
 
If you read deeper into the PRII plan they seriously considered combining the CL with the Silver Star, making the Silver Star a Chicago to Florida train with only connecting trains between DC and New York. Once the new cars start to appear in 2013 they plan to reconsider this option. So you could end up with an all single level CL/Silver Star with through cars Chicago to New York switched at Pittsburgh. Interesting.
Sounds almost like an eastern "City of Everywhere"!
*blinks*

Serious question: If they're going do do this, why not restore the Floridian via Atlanta and Savannah? Do a car swap in Savannah (merge the two overnight trains going on) with the Palmetto, and run the train north through Atlanta and Tennessee to meet up with the Kentucky Cardinal's old route. It'd run CHI-IND-Louisville-Chattanooga-ATL-SAV-JAX-ORL-MIA. This seems...a lot more sensible than running things through Pittsburgh if you're trying to sell a Chicago-Florida service, and you could throw Nashville in with a bus. Depending on the timing, this might also make for a more workable timetable with Indianapolis (which has an awful schedule with the Cardinal).
You'd loose the Capitol Limited in that mess. And that will never happen.
 
If you read deeper into the PRII plan they seriously considered combining the CL with the Silver Star, making the Silver Star a Chicago to Florida train with only connecting trains between DC and New York. Once the new cars start to appear in 2013 they plan to reconsider this option. So you could end up with an all single level CL/Silver Star with through cars Chicago to New York switched at Pittsburgh. Interesting.
I assume that you're talking about this paragraph?

Combining the Capitol Limited and the Silver Star to establish direct Midwest to Florida service – While this option would significantly increase the number of passengers traveling between the Midwest, the Carolinas and Florida, those gains were overshadowed by the loss of passengers and revenue on the Silver Star route to and from points north of Washington on the Northeast Corridor. This was due to the change of trains these passengers would be required to make in Washington. (In FY 2011, Amtrak may reconsider this option further since all Florida / Carolinas long distance services will be due for review under PRIIA Section 210.)
I couldn't find anything in the document that said that they would look into this option again when the cars become available. I'm pretty sure that they're going to come to the same conclusion next year that they did this year, that this is a bad move.
 
If you read deeper into the PRII plan they seriously considered combining the CL with the Silver Star, making the Silver Star a Chicago to Florida train with only connecting trains between DC and New York. Once the new cars start to appear in 2013 they plan to reconsider this option. So you could end up with an all single level CL/Silver Star with through cars Chicago to New York switched at Pittsburgh. Interesting.
Dream on. And to repeat there is not going to be a single new Coach becoming available when the new cars start to arrive. But the more significant reason it won't happen unless it is an additional train beyond the Star and the Meteor is that no one is willing to give upthe lucrative revenue source that O/D from NY City and the NEC provided on the current Florida trains.

The fact of the matter is I have actually talked to people at Amtrak who do this sort of analysis and their boss, and the general impression I get is, yeah we need to analyze all, but there is no evidence that removing any of the through service from New York (and NEC) to Florida to use the equipment somewhere else is a very bright idea if revenues are important. New York and NEC as O/D for Florida traffic is huge, and switching trains loses a significant proportion of the ridership as mentioned in the report(s). Chicago will come nowhere close to restoring the lost revenue. Now when enough cars are available for a third train to FL from Washington DC then maybe. The problem is that the distance from Chicago to Florida is a bit too large to make it a convenient one night ride.
 
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There is enough demand to keep two NYP-MIA trains, your talking about removing one. Heck there's enough riders to justify a third NYP-MIA train, the Palmetto is only one step away from that.
Dudes, I am not 'talking' about anything here, Amtrak is. It's discussed under the Executive Summary on page 5. I agree with you as I always thought that the New York to Florida market was one of Amtrak best and busiest. I don't see anything wrong with the Capitol carrying through cars for Florida as far as DC and hooking them to one of the Florida trains.
 
Yes, they discussed it and discarded the idea for exactly the reasons that ALC mentioned.
Well according to the report they may reconsider this option next year. The quote "(In FY 2011, Amtrak may reconsider this option further since all Florida/Carolinas long distance services will be due for review under PRIIA Section 210)". That doesn't sound like they have discarded it. I have no idea what ALC is talking about.
 
Yes, they discussed it and discarded the idea for exactly the reasons that ALC mentioned.
Well according to the report they may reconsider this option next year. The quote "(In FY 2011, Amtrak may reconsider this option further since all Florida/Carolinas long distance services will be due for review under PRIIA Section 210)". That doesn't sound like they have discarded it. I have no idea what ALC is talking about.

If you read deeper into the PRII plan they seriously considered combining the CL with the Silver Star, making the Silver Star a Chicago to Florida train with only connecting trains between DC and New York. Once the new cars start to appear in 2013 they plan to reconsider this option. So you could end up with an all single level CL/Silver Star with through cars Chicago to New York switched at Pittsburgh. Interesting.
I assume that you're talking about this paragraph?

Combining the Capitol Limited and the Silver Star to establish direct Midwest to Florida service – While this option would significantly increase the number of passengers traveling between the Midwest, the Carolinas and Florida, those gains were overshadowed by the loss of passengers and revenue on the Silver Star route to and from points north of Washington on the Northeast Corridor. This was due to the change of trains these passengers would be required to make in Washington. (In FY 2011, Amtrak may reconsider this option further since all Florida / Carolinas long distance services will be due for review under PRIIA Section 210.)
I couldn't find anything in the document that said that they would look into this option again when the cars become available. I'm pretty sure that they're going to come to the same conclusion next year that they did this year, that this is a bad move.
 
Yes, they discussed it and discarded the idea for exactly the reasons that ALC mentioned.
Well according to the report they may reconsider this option next year. The quote "(In FY 2011, Amtrak may reconsider this option further since all Florida/Carolinas long distance services will be due for review under PRIIA Section 210)". That doesn't sound like they have discarded it. I have no idea what ALC is talking about.
Yes, they will reconsider it and reject it again. :) For a complete analysis they do have to reconsider it in the context of the Atlantic Coast Service. At present it has only been considered in the context of the Cap. But it stands a snowball's chance in hell to be actually accepted as a reasonable thing to do. That is all that some of us are trying to say.
 
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And that reconsideration has nothing whatsoever to do with when new single level cars will become available.
Correct! And even if it did it wouldn't come to a different conclusion because even with all the new cars delivered there won't be enough of the right type of cars to make the Cap a single level daily train without significant loss of capacity. And trust me, they are *not* going to reduce the capacity of the Cap.
 
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