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BuzzKillington

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Mar 2, 2009
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I heard rumors that the Pennsylvanian might be extended to Chicago sometime in 2011... possibly connected to the CL. Are there any truth to these rumors?
 
For me personally, it would be nice. I used to take the Three Rivers out of PHL and it was convenient. The Cardinal to CUS just doesn't cut it for me.
 
Amtrak came up with the absolutely brilliant idea of sticking two through cars from the Pennsylvanian onto the CL at Pittsburgh as part of the study into the CL's performance. If they decide to do that, it shouldn't take to long to be implemented, since the only major change is switching cars at Pittsburgh, it wouldn't need any new equipment or major interactions with freight railroads. IIRC, the biggest complication was constructing new trackage at Pittsburgh station.
 
Just have to wonder aloud if Amtrak has ever give thought to "transitional" coaches that would allow single-level and Superliners to connect without passengers changing cars.
 
This idea would require rescheduling of the Pennsylavanian and/or the CL. It would also require making the Pennsylvanian a Superliner train. A mixed consist would not be practical as it could not accomodate sleeper passengers looking to board in Philadelphia.
 
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You mean like the Hi Level Transition Coaches that the Santa Fe had?
I'm not exactly sure what I really mean (but, then again, I never am :) )

Just wondering what the options could be (even if they aren't now) of combining single level and Superliners together.
 
This idea would require rescheduling of the Pennsylavanian and/or the CL. It would also require making the Pennsylvanian a Superliner train. A mixed consist would not be practical as it could not accomodate sleeper passengers looking to board in Philadelphia.
False. Amtrak would put the single level coaches between the bag and the trans dorm. No sleeper service between PHL and PIT. Also, Superliner equipment is too big for the Pennsy's route.

You mean like the Hi Level Transition Coaches that the Santa Fe had?
I'm not exactly sure what I really mean (but, then again, I never am :) )

Just wondering what the options could be (even if they aren't now) of combining single level and Superliners together.
They were basically transition dorms, but were filled with coach seats. It's possible, but there isn't that much of a need for it.
 
This idea would require rescheduling of the Pennsylavanian and/or the CL. It would also require making the Pennsylvanian a Superliner train. A mixed consist would not be practical as it could not accomodate sleeper passengers looking to board in Philadelphia.
False. Amtrak would put the single level coaches between the bag and the trans dorm. No sleeper service between PHL and PIT. Also, Superliner equipment is too big for the Pennsy's route.

You mean like the Hi Level Transition Coaches that the Santa Fe had?
I'm not exactly sure what I really mean (but, then again, I never am :) )

Just wondering what the options could be (even if they aren't now) of combining single level and Superliners together.
They were basically transition dorms, but were filled with coach seats. It's possible, but there isn't that much of a need for it.
Maybe the bigger question is if Amtrak can look beyond the budget they now have to innovative ideas for the future. Combining the Pennsy and CL might look sensible for travelers, but does it make sense on the balance sheet. I defer that decision to a better mind than my own.
 
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Wouldn't really make much sense to make PHL and NYP riders switch from sleeper to coach in Pittsburgh at 5 in the morning coming east.
 
Additional question. If the Pennsy actually started in Pennsylvania at 30th St., could it run to Chicago on Superliner equipment. IIRC (and, perhaps I do not :( ) the height restrictions deal with NYC.
 
Technically, it probably could, but there would be problems with some high level platforms from Harrisburg east...
 
The idea of through-coaches on the Penny is on the table for 2011, if they can find the cars.

It seems to me that the idea of having a Viewliner and coach combination is on the table after the order is fulfilled, and would be a much more logical choice.
 
Just have to wonder aloud if Amtrak has ever give thought to "transitional" coaches that would allow single-level and Superliners to connect without passengers changing cars.
Dave, just to be clear here, Amtrak already has what's called the Trans/Dorm. It's a car that allows one to transistion between Superliners & single level cars.

This current plan for combining the "two" trains would allow for passengers from the Pennsy to reach the dining car and sightseer lounge on the Capitol via that Trans/Dorm. The one issue that I see is having coach passenger walking through the sleepers. That of course could be solved by putting the Capitol's sleepers on the rear of the train.
 
Wouldn't really make much sense to make PHL and NYP riders switch from sleeper to coach in Pittsburgh at 5 in the morning coming east.
That is not what the plan says.

The plan says that 2 Amfleet II Coaches, one Amfleet Food Service Car and one Viewliner Sleeper would operate from new York to Chicago. These four cars would be transferred from the Pennsylvanian to the Cap or vice-versa at Pittsburgh. Until additional Viewliners become available this through service may be started with just the Coaches. Though the introduction of these throughc ars is premised upon the restoration of reconnection of what is now a stub track into the main at the west end of the station in Pittsburgh enabling the switching moves necessary. These cars would be switched in between the Baggage Car and the Trans-Dorm car of the Cap. Passengers of the New York section will have access to the Superliner Diner and Lounge cars between Pittsburgh and Chicago.

Just go and read the FY10 Performance Improvement Plan, Capitol Limited - PRIIA Section 210. It is all there in black and white. no speculation required. :)

Maybe the bigger question is if Amtrak can look beyond the budget they now have to innovative ideas for the future. Combining the Pennsy and CL might look sensible for travelers, but does it make sense on the balance sheet. I defer that decision to a better mind than my own.
Dave, read the report pointed to above. This is proposed to improve the financial performance of the Capitol Limited significantly.

This idea would require rescheduling of the Pennsylavanian and/or the CL. It would also require making the Pennsylvanian a Superliner train. A mixed consist would not be practical as it could not accomodate sleeper passengers looking to board in Philadelphia.
Read the report referred to above to see what the proposed schedule is. Not a huge major change. And it will not require the Pennsylvanian to be converted to Superliner. The Sleeper service from New York to Chicago on this section of the Cap would be in a Viewliner car.
 
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Amtrak came up with the absolutely brilliant idea of sticking two through cars from the Pennsylvanian onto the CL at Pittsburgh as part of the study into the CL's performance. If they decide to do that, it shouldn't take to long to be implemented, since the only major change is switching cars at Pittsburgh, it wouldn't need any new equipment or major interactions with freight railroads. IIRC, the biggest complication was constructing new trackage at Pittsburgh station.
I hardly doubt that there will be no extra costs.

Switching is a very costly procedure, while passengers changing trains create virtually no expenses.

Therefore in Europe switching cars is avoided whenever possible and nowadays only done with a few night trains.

Italian Railways for example have abandoned night switching in a hub as big as Milan.

Considering the fact that the cars need to be switched at 11PM and at 5AM one will need probably two crews.

If there is construction work needed too, Amtrak will probably loose money even if the ridership figures rise.
 
So would the Cap be essentially gaining two coaches from PIT westward (and CHI-PIT)? Meaning, would Amtrak be able to sell coach space say from Cleveland to Chicago in the Penny's coaches?
 
Amtrak would put the single level coaches between the bag and the trans dorm. No sleeper service between PHL and PIT. Also, Superliner equipment is too big for the Pennsy's route.
It may be possible to run Superliner equipment from PHL through to CHI but obviously not to NYC. As far as I am aware the PHL to PGH route has no low clearance tunnels. As for combining the NYC-PGH train to the CL, that would mean that Sleeper passengers would need to detrain from coach and board a Superliner sleeper. It could be done but this would make for an extended stop at Pittsburgh.
 
What Superliner equipment?

It's going to be Amfleets until there are more Viewliner sleepers, then it'll be Amfleets+Viewliner(s).

No need to detrain and have an extended stop, just walk from the coach into the Trans Dorm and then into your sleeper.

Have you read the Amtrak report linked above?
 
It may be possible to run Superliner equipment from PHL through to CHI but obviously not to NYC. As far as I am aware the PHL to PGH route has no low clearance tunnels. As for combining the NYC-PGH train to the CL, that would mean that Sleeper passengers would need to detrain from coach and board a Superliner sleeper. It could be done but this would make for an extended stop at Pittsburgh.
Why wouldn't you read the report first before going on and on about things that are not proposed in the report. Those guys have thought it through. You can give your brain a rest. They are not planning to run Superliners on the Pennsylvanian. They do not have extra Superliners to throw around for this purpose.

Nobody has to detrain in Pittsburgh unless that is where they are going. They could transfer from one part of the train to another, should the need arise, through the train, once they are joined together. Also they are not combining the NYP - PGH train with the CL, they are planning to transfer 4 cars from the NYP - PGH train to the CL. They will also carry the crew from the New York base all the way to Chicago. Switching will be done by the road crew.
 
Having read some of these Amtrak PRII's before and found them full of misstatements and errors(don't they ever proof read these things) I don't believe any of it, particularly the bottom line numbers. They have been mandated to do this so they put out a report. It's interesting, looking at the current Amtrak schedules, that it is just as fast to change trains in DC and go to New York that way as to take the Pennsylvanian from Pittsburg and the transfer isn't in the middle of the night and you get to ride on the NEC. If you read the history section, this is just a repeat of what they did after they combined the Broadway with the Capitol Limited or something like that. With all the talk on here about Chicago to Florida service it would seem that a better option would be to add through cars to Florida to the CL and that is mentioned in the report.

Personally, I think the CL should be using single level equipment with through cars to both New York and Florida. That releases the three sets of superliner equipment for use on other trains. And it gives better utilization of equipment with the use of Florida through cars rather than have them just sit in DC for 27 hours. Amtrak continues to amaze me. They just have no imagination and apparently no really good plan. Of couse as they so state, none of this can come to pass before the new cars are available.

One other note, they state bluntly that having passengers change trains effects thru ridership to the tune of 40%. So why did they propose to have the New Orleans to LAX Sunset Limited passengers change trains in San Antonio???????? Rather than continue through cars between New Orleans and LAX they proposed to send any surplus equipment to the CL so it can sit in DC for 27 hours each and every day. What a bunch of drones they have at Amtrak. There is really no hope for the system until they get some real management in there that can come up with practical solutions rather than this 'feel good' stuff they continue to spout. It's another case for privatization of the system.
 
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