PennDOT to pay 100% of Keystone

[Barciur]

Pennsylvania now covers half the cost of Amtrak's Keystone Line trains between Philadelphia and Harrisburg.Under a new federal law due to take effect next fall, PennDOT will be picking up the full tab.What that will mean to daily commuters and rail travelers remains undetermined, said Toby Fauver...

http://lancasteronline.com/article/local/742656_New-federal-law-forces-PennDOT-to-pay-full-operating-cost-of-Amtrak-s-Keystone-Line.html

So... I really fear this could spell trouble for this service. Either we're gonna get hit by big price hikes or we're gonna lose a lot of trains.. what does everyone else think?

 

[Bob Dylan]

Pennsylvania now covers half the cost of Amtrak's Keystone Line trains between Philadelphia and Harrisburg.Under a new federal law due to take effect next fall, PennDOT will be picking up the full tab.What that will mean to daily commuters and rail travelers remains undetermined, said Toby Fauver...

http://lancasteronline.com/article/local/742656_New-federal-law-forces-PennDOT-to-pay-full-operating-cost-of-Amtrak-s-Keystone-Line.html

So... I really fear this could spell trouble for this service. Either we're gonna get hit by big price hikes or we're gonna lose a lot of trains.. what does everyone else think?

It's gonna depend on your State and Local Politicians! IF they have the desire to Support and Fund Rail , they Will! But since the NIMBYS and Antis always Clamor Against Spending Money on Transportation, Rail Supporters need to let them know what they want, Early and Often!! There are Only a Few States that Really Support Rail right now, and it's Popular in some Political Circles to Bash Rail at every Opportunity! The Squeaky Wheel Gets the Grease!

 

[Paulus]

Fare hikes won't put them higher than NERegionals and if they cut trains, it'll be ones very lightly used (like a Capitol Corridor that was recently cut which averaged only 20 riders per day). Since they'll be paying the full costs, they should also have a lot more leverage with Amtrak for service improvements as well as a likely transition to a state owned rail fleet.

 

[benjibear]

As always I love reading the comments.

As a PA taxpayer I support this.

 

[fairviewroad]

The Keystone runs are popular and well-used. It's hard to imagine the service would be significantly gutted.

Could it stand a fare increase? Perhaps, but it's already over $50 r/t between Harrisburg and Philly. That's

pretty high for what is basically a glorified suburban commuter train. (Obviously frequent riders can use

fare tools to bring down the cost.)

I can see a few strategic trims to service. I don't have ridership figures for individual trains, but I find it

hard to believe that the last runs of the evening are well patronized. But I think/assume there'd be

enough popular support for the state to continue paying for the service. It definitely takes

a lot of cars off the roads in S/E PA.

 

[afigg]

Pennsylvania now covers half the cost of Amtrak's Keystone Line trains between Philadelphia and Harrisburg.Under a new federal law due to take effect next fall, PennDOT will be picking up the full tab.What that will mean to daily commuters and rail travelers remains undetermined, said Toby Fauver...

...

So... I really fear this could spell trouble for this service. Either we're gonna get hit by big price hikes or we're gonna lose a lot of trains.. what does everyone else think?

It may not cost PennDOT quite as much as the article says. The FY12 cost numbers are lower than the FY11 numbers with the revised(?) cost allocations for the first 10 months of the FY according to the July 2012 monthly report. Keystone ridership is up +5.0% and ticket revenue up +11.0% for October-July. I expect that there will be modest fare increases to maximize revenue are likely to reduce the state subsidy. The Harrisburg to Philly prices are low compared to what Amtrak is charging for the NE Regionals these days.

The financial numbers for the first 10 months of the fiscal year:

Ticket revenue = $27.5 million

Total Operating Costs = $37.8 million plus $0.7 million for OPEB = $38.5 million total (not including capital charge which is N/A)

Ticket cost recovery = 71%

Total Revenue which include PennDOT payments to date = $34.3 million

Loss before Capital Charge = $4.2 million

So PennDOT might only have to come up with an additional $5+ million for the Keystone. Less with modest fare increases and increasing ridership. With faster trip times from HAR to PHL and to NYP, the Keystone service could break even someday.

The Pennsylvanian which may need $5 or $6 million of state funding is more exposed. The Pennsylvanian needs to increase ridership.

His complaint about Amtrak's customer service are valid. Locking people out of Lancaster station should not happen more than once. Period. The conductors closing off cars that the state is paying for and crowding passengers together because the conductors don't want to walk to the end cars is not very professional.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

The conductors closing off cars that the state is paying for and crowding passengers together because the conductors don't want to walk to the end cars is not very professional.

This seems to be S.O.P. for Amtrak. It is done in the name of making sure folks don't miss their stops on the LD routes. Often one of the closed cars is used as an 'office' by the conductors...

 

[Anderson]

I'm just wondering, but with the through cars to the Cap going onto the Penny, would that potentially protect the operation of the Penny as part of an LD service?

 

[Karl1459]

This may be a case for a privatization OPTION, as PA will be paying the entire bill. PA would have some ability to compare costs and set quality standards for service. The challenge is to keep the through ticketing and baggage options that Amtrak service has.

Another option is for PA to provide the service directly either as an expansion of SEPTA service or PA-DOT directly. Run away personal costs would be an issue here.

The elephant hiding in the closet of course, is how much federal and state subsidy is involved for a passenger to use air, or auto (keeping in mind that accident insurance is often woefully short of the costs of major injuries/death).

 

[jis]

This may be a case for a privatization OPTION, as PA will be paying the entire bill. PA would have some ability to compare costs and set quality standards for service. The challenge is to keep the through ticketing and baggage options that Amtrak service has.

PA will be hard pressed to try to privatize the Keystone operations, since they have not bothered to acquire any equipment for them so far. It will be a significant upfront cost to acquire equipment or ongoing cost to lease the same which will need to go into the equation. I am sure Amtrak will be happy to lease the equipment to PA for much more than they charge to operate the same for PA, and why not?

 

[Nickrapak]

The Keystones go from the most populous city in the state to the most politically-connected city in the state. Somehow, I don't think that the service will be allowed to end.

 

[Barciur]

. I don't have ridership figures for individual trains, but I find it

hard to believe that the last runs of the evening are well patronized.

I've taken that on the weekdays on couple of occassions and trust me - while it is not filled like rush hour afternoon/morning, it is still significantly busy.

 

[Acela150]

This may be a case for a privatization OPTION, as PA will be paying the entire bill. PA would have some ability to compare costs and set quality standards for service. The challenge is to keep the through ticketing and baggage options that Amtrak service has.

PA will be hard pressed to try to privatize the Keystone operations, since they have not bothered to acquire any equipment for them so far. It will be a significant upfront cost to acquire equipment or ongoing cost to lease the same which will need to go into the equation. I am sure Amtrak will be happy to lease the equipment to PA for much more than they charge to operate the same for PA, and why not?

I can see only a lease happening.. Privatizing the Keystone Corridor to the State wouldn't go over to well right now... Just my thought.

The Keystones go from the most populous city in the state to the most politically-connected city in the state. Somehow, I don't think that the service will be allowed to end.

Agreed. I was on a Keystone from PAO-PHL and a few politicians were making their way to Philadelphia. Same goes for the Point runs I take. I'll see a politician or two. I asked them what they think of the service if I'm in line to get off the train and their in line behind or in front, and they praise it.

 

[MattW]

Agreed. I was on a Keystone from PAO-PHL and a few politicians were making their way to Philadelphia. Same goes for the Point runs I take. I'll see a politician or two. I asked them what they think of the service if I'm in line to get off the train and their in line behind or in front, and they praise it.

Ah, but do they praise it because someone else pays for half of it? Or to let me rephrase, will they be so keen on supporting it when they see the bill for the grand total? That is the real question.

 

[Paulus]

PA is going to need to replace the equipment in the near future anyhow as the Amfleets approach the end of service life and I rather doubt Amtrak will buy an equivalent number of replacements for PA out of the kindness of their hearts.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

How crowded is the Pennsylvanian? It's kinda related to this.

 

[Anderson]

PA is going to need to replace the equipment in the near future anyhow as the Amfleets approach the end of service life and I rather doubt Amtrak will buy an equivalent number of replacements for PA out of the kindness of their hearts.

No, but if Amtrak is getting car rental fees that outweigh depreciation (PLUS all revenue on the NEC between NYP and PHL), that's not the kindness of their hearts...that's simple business sense. Not to mention follow-on business, which I would be shocked to find wasn't at least worth noting.

 

[cirdan]

Doesn't PenDOT own SEPTA? Would SEPTA be able to run this service?

I'm just thinking out loud. I'm not necessarily advocating that that would be a good idea.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

PA is going to need to replace the equipment in the near future anyhow as the Amfleets approach the end of service life and I rather doubt Amtrak will buy an equivalent number of replacements for PA out of the kindness of their hearts.

No, but if Amtrak is getting car rental fees that outweigh depreciation (PLUS all revenue on the NEC between NYP and PHL), that's not the kindness of their hearts...that's simple business sense. Not to mention follow-on business, which I would be shocked to find wasn't at least worth noting.

If the Keystones are going to continue to NYP on the NEC, I think Amtrak has 'some weight to throw around.'

As far as Septa running the Keystones, I doubt very seriously that they have the efficiencies in place to run them for less than Amtrak currently does.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

If PennDOT is going to cover more (all?) of the costs of the Keystone train, I would like to see it (and/or the Pennsylvanian) cover more of PA and cover less of NJ. I mean, the NE Regionals and Acela do a pretty good job of servicing NJ already. The Keystone (and Pennsylvanian) are redundant in that respect.

Between Philly and NYC, it could be re-routed to cover Reading, Allentown, and Bethlehem, using the existing Norfolk Southern track. Well, it would not be the only place in the Amtrak system where freight rails are used so such should be possible.

 

[Barciur]

I think a good amount of people travel for work to NY on the Keystone (though don't have any data) so it'd be massively inconvenient for them to have to get off in Philly and wait for a train to NY..

Although, of course, it is a KEYSTONE train, which suggests it should serve just our state.

 

[VentureForth]

I'm not that familiar with the legacy world, but my assumption is that the Keystone would operate on non-NEC rail as its own entity and then on the NEC up to NYP, it would operate with an NEC crew. It would be Amtrak all the way, but from a logistics and financial standpoint, it would be separated at the NEC.

I believe this was common in the "old days" and even today with the freights when it comes to trackage rights, etc. The Keystone should be paid for 100% by Pennsylvania and the state should receive 100% of the revenue, less a fee for trackage into NYP on the NEC and Amtrak reservations. Ideally, all the employees should probably be state employees... That's another flame war, though.

 

[Anderson]

I'm not that familiar with the legacy world, but my assumption is that the Keystone would operate on non-NEC rail as its own entity and then on the NEC up to NYP, it would operate with an NEC crew. It would be Amtrak all the way, but from a logistics and financial standpoint, it would be separated at the NEC.

I believe this was common in the "old days" and even today with the freights when it comes to trackage rights, etc. The Keystone should be paid for 100% by Pennsylvania and the state should receive 100% of the revenue, less a fee for trackage into NYP on the NEC and Amtrak reservations. Ideally, all the employees should probably be state employees... That's another flame war, though.

Actually, I do have a counter here: Amtrak owns the HAR-PHL line, so you could at least argue that the whole thing should "dump" to Amtrak. Ditto NHV-SPG, and now ALB-NYP. I'm not speaking to the vailidity of the argument, but it's at least there.

 

[afigg]

Doesn't PenDOT own SEPTA? Would SEPTA be able to run this service?

I'm just thinking out loud. I'm not necessarily advocating that that would be a good idea.

SEPTA is the SouthEastern Pennsylvanian Transportation Authority chartered to operate in Philadelphia, Delaware, Chester, Montgomery Counties and New Castle County in DE and Mercer County in NJ. Operation to Harrisburg would be well outside its defined area and likely require Lancaster and Dauphin counties to join SEPTA - and contribute funding. Which would go over like a lead balloon.

SEPTA is probably the most perennially underfunded major metropolitan regional transit system in the US. The pattern of SEPTA over the past 30+ years has been one of trimming service, cutting trains to keep the core system running. SEPTA still uses tokens for the subway & trolley system, decades after other transit systems switched to magnetic strip or smart cards. SEPTA can't even restore service to Wawa over existing track and ROW without encountering funding constraints that stall the project for years.

Amtrak owns the tracks for the entire route from NYP to Harrisburg. Amtrak owns the rolling stock. Amtrak owns the maintenance and support facilities. PA is looking at having to maybe cough up an additional $5 or $6 million annually for the Keystone service. It would cost PA far, far more to start up their own intercity service from scratch over the route. Amtrak would clearly resist because the Keystones are an integral part of the NEC operations. I also think that as the Harrisburg to PHL to NYP trip times improve, ridership and ticket revenue will grow faster than operating costs and that the Keystones will break even, if turn a small operating profit before the end of this decade.

 

[jis]

I'm not that familiar with the legacy world, but my assumption is that the Keystone would operate on non-NEC rail as its own entity and then on the NEC up to NYP, it would operate with an NEC crew. It would be Amtrak all the way, but from a logistics and financial standpoint, it would be separated at the NEC.

I believe this was common in the "old days" and even today with the freights when it comes to trackage rights, etc. The Keystone should be paid for 100% by Pennsylvania and the state should receive 100% of the revenue, less a fee for trackage into NYP on the NEC and Amtrak reservations. Ideally, all the employees should probably be state employees... That's another flame war, though.

Actually, I do have a counter here: Amtrak owns the HAR-PHL line, so you could at least argue that the whole thing should "dump" to Amtrak. Ditto NHV-SPG, and now ALB-NYP. I'm not speaking to the vailidity of the argument, but it's at least there.

At present it looks like it is certain that ALB-NYP will be NY State responsibility in the PRIIA 209 sense. It is not clear exactly how NHV-SPG and PHL-HAR will pan out (at least to me), but I suspect some arrangement within the PRIIA regime will be worked out. I have not read PRIIA 209 in detail and I don't know how NHV-SPG and PHL-HAR is characterized in it.

My ESPA friends tell me that NYP-ALB is considered part of the Empire Corridor which is definitely seen as NY State responsibility and NY and Amtrak are working on an agreement that goes into force next year and NY State has budgeted money to cover the cost of current service and then some. There are sticking points in the negotiations involving things like food service which NY State wants restored between NYP and ALB on ALB terminators.

BTW, Amtrak does not own any of NYP-ALB. As far as I understand it (and it could be wrong) POU-SDY (actually Hoffmans) has been leased to NY State for 25 years (starting Nov 5 2012) with a possible extension of another 15 years, and NY State has chosen Amtrak to Maintain and Operate it for them (sort of like the NEC in MA except for the lease part). I am not very clear about how the lease payments are contracted to flow, but will find out at the next ESPA meeting. Of course Spuyten Duyvil - POU is owned by MNRR and Amtrak is a tenant, and NYP - Spuyten Duyvil is owned and operated by Amtrak. So NYP-ALB is not at all like the other two.