PennDOT to pay 100% of Keystone

[Anderson]

And, to elaborate on the allocation of costs and revenue of through trains between HAR and NYO, the methodologies used to assign costs and revenue will be a huge issue for PennDOT in it's negotiations with Amtrak.

The methodology for *cost* assignment was settled by the STB ruling, *including* the split for through trains IIRC.

(Although the "capital charge" still hasn't been developed.)

The methodology for *revenue* assignment seems to be less settled; I think the STB ruling contains a methodology but it's still kind of vague. More significantly, it only applies to trains which have a "net cost" -- Virginia has the question of how to split Lynchburg profit, though I believe the deal is that that will first offset Virginia's costs for other trains, and then go into a sequestered fund for capital improvements within Virginia.

The VA situation is going to be...interesting in the next few years, since:

1) Some revenue is going to be "lost" to the formula rework.

2) NS is demanding a higher fee going forward for the Lynchburger (I think that goes up by $1.5m in a year or two).

3) On the other hand, the WAS-RVR-NPN route is doing far better this year than in previous years, and I recall overhearing that as of some point, the majority of those trains actually turn a profit as well (it's either 3 of 5 or 4 of 5)...but the route loses money because of the relative margins. What's more, the situation has also been improving dramatically, so it might only be one of them that loses money...and apparently that's also expected to change once the Norfolk train gets going.

So VA might get into a situation where the two routes reverse position...which would give everyone involved headaches.

I suspect that you're right about there being a sequestered fund, either for capital improvements or against seasonal losses/disruption-heavy seasons (looking at the latest monthly reports, there are some trains posting seasonal profits but full-year losses, so it seems possible that some of VA's trains might make money for part of the year but lose money narrowly at the slowest times of the year). Still, if PPR can outpace costs and ridership can keep growing (which seems likely in the long term, considering how bad the various interstates are getting), this could be an interesting situation going forward.

 

[jis]

At present it looks like it is certain that ALB-NYP will be NY State responsibility in the PRIIA 209 sense. It is not clear exactly how NHV-SPG and PHL-HAR will pan out (at least to me), but I suspect some arrangement within the PRIIA regime will be worked out. I have not read PRIIA 209 in detail and I don't know how NHV-SPG and PHL-HAR is characterized in it.

My ESPA friends tell me that NYP-ALB is considered part of the Empire Corridor which is definitely seen as NY State responsibility and NY and Amtrak are working on an agreement that goes into force next year and NY State has budgeted money to cover the cost of current service and then some.

When you say current service, this means the funding includes coverage for NY-Niagara Falls service and the "NY part" of the Maple Leaf? (Living in the Finger Lakes, I obviously care more about the trains which continue past Albany!)

Yes. So we were told by the representative of the NY DoT at the last ESPA Annual Meeting.

Accounting for the Empire Corridor is done in two pieces - Empire South (NYP-ALB) and Empire West (ALB and west). Both are accounted for in the budget. NY State budgets lump sums for each department and leaves a lot of leeway for the departments to decided the details. Working out the details with Amtrak is what is going on at present, is what I am told.

 

[fairviewroad]

Since one of the main purposes of the Keystones is to get PA residents to NYC and NJ, ending them in PHL would be a bad idea because of the impact it would have on ridership. I know I read something that talked generally about what a significant hit ridership takes when there is a transfer - even if it is a dedicated cross-platform transfer. A one seat ride is a deal maker, or breaker, for many people.

Another purpose of the Keystones is to enable NJ and NYC residents travel to the Main Line, Lancaster, Harrisburg for business trips, see family, spend tourist dollars in PA. A transfer at PHL would lose some of that direct travel business. The purpose of a transportation service in the eyes of a state agency is not only to benefit state residents, but to attract business and tourist money from outside the state.

These are both true points, but I wonder what portion of Keystone ridership is "through-traffic" through Philly. IME there are a huge number of passengers

boarding and disembarking at 30th Street. It seems like the number of people enjoying that one-seat ride is pretty small in comparison. Probably

because to ride through from the mainline over to NJ/NY involves a rather circuitous route and a long-ish station stop in Philly (though shorter, I'll grant you,

than connecting to another train).

And, Amtrak long ago discontinued the through-train from the Mainline to the NEC that bypassed 30th Street. So that leads me to believe there's

not a huge demand for through traffic.

 

[jis]

And, Amtrak long ago discontinued the through-train from the Mainline to the NEC that bypassed 30th Street. So that leads me to believe there's

not a huge demand for through traffic.

The Keystones run to New York because its paymasters want it to. I have heard that the split is 1/3: 2/3, i.e. 2/3 Philly O/D and 1/3 through. The other thing to keep in mind is that the Keystones provide a lower fare Amtrak service for Pennsylvanians to New York and vice versa than what is available via NE Regionals. So removing the Keystone service to New York will harm those in Philadelphia and New York that avail of this service and presumably helps Philadelphia's economy in the process. At least that is the logic that PennDOT uses for justifying their desire to run these trains to New York. For them it is a substitute for the Clockers for New York traffic. IF NJ wants those trains to stop in NJ they could start contributing some for them. But NJ won't. NJ's stance is that anyone wanting to go to NJ stations can transfer to excellent ( ) and frequent NJT service at Trenton.

Bypassing 30th street would make no sense since there is significant demand at 30th Street from both legs of the service.

 

[fairviewroad]

And, Amtrak long ago discontinued the through-train from the Mainline to the NEC that bypassed 30th Street. So that leads me to believe there's

not a huge demand for through traffic.

The Keystones run to New York because its paymasters want it to. I have heard that the split is 1/3: 2/3, i.e. 2/3 Philly O/D and 1/3 through. The other thing to keep in mind is that the Keystones provide a lower fare Amtrak service for Pennsylvanians to New York and vice versa than what is available via NE Regionals. So removing the Keystone service to New York will harm those in Philadelphia and New York that avail of this service and presumably helps Philadelphia's economy in the process. At least that is the logic that PennDOT uses for justifying their desire to run these trains to New York. For them it is a substitute for the Clockers for New York traffic. IF NJ wants those trains to stop in NJ they could start contributing some for them. But NJ won't. NJ's stance is that anyone wanting to go to NJ stations can transfer to excellent ( ) and frequent NJT service at Trenton.

Bypassing 30th street would make no sense since there is significant demand at 30th Street from both legs of the service.

You can't have a pure 2/3 Philly O/D and 1/3 through traffic split, because many people (some, at least) ride locally between points west of Philly (PAO-HAR

for example.) If you are saying that on average, 1/3 of the people on a Keystone train arriving into 30th Street "ride through" then I could buy that. (Keeping in

mind that not all trains actually run through.)

But I agree, the reality is that the 30th Street stop is necessary. It would be nice if it didn't slow the journey down so much, but those are the breaks.

 

[jis]

If you are saying that on average, 1/3 of the people on a Keystone train arriving into 30th Street "ride through" then I could buy that. (Keeping in

mind that not all trains actually run through.)

That is what I meant to say. Did not do too good a job of it, unfortunately. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Barciur]

This is kind of OT, but any idea why it costs $51 to go from Philly to New York, be it on Keystone or NE Regional, whereas it costs $53 to go on a Keystone from Lancaster to New York? Kinda makes no sense.

 

[Paulus]

This is kind of OT, but any idea why it costs $51 to go from Philly to New York, be it on Keystone or NE Regional, whereas it costs $53 to go on a Keystone from Lancaster to New York? Kinda makes no sense.

Supply and demand. Fewer seats available by the time you reach Philadelphia and more people wanting to make the journey.

 

[jis]

The conductors closing off cars that the state is paying for and crowding passengers together because the conductors don't want to walk to the end cars is not very professional.

This seems to be S.O.P. for Amtrak. It is done in the name of making sure folks don't miss their stops on the LD routes. Often one of the closed cars is used as an 'office' by the conductors...

For what it is worth it is worse on NJT operating its own trains. So Amtrak is not alone in that department.