OK Amtrak Apologists

[guest in the west]

OK. San Diego is hosting Comic-Con this week, the annual convention blockbuster of action comics, Hollywood movies, videos and the like, with 120,000 people attending. It gets bigger every year, with thousands of people, esp. young people, coming from the LA area.

So does Amtrak plan for the extra loads that happen every year on the Pacific Surfliner?

Of course not! :wacko:

Surfliner trains were jammed on Thursday, standing-room only almost the entire distance LA-San Diego.

Take just one example, the 790 at 7:30 p.m. Amfleet equipment with only TWO conductors, meaning for the hundreds of passengers one door open next to the BC-Cafe car and the other at the other end of the train. Passengers screaming that the train was going to leaved before they could get to an exit. People standing the aisles, sitting in the vestibules. No extra cars, no extra personnel, no extra provisions in the Cafe Car for those who could squeeze through.

Almost all of this line is owned by SoCal rail agencies. Freight trains run only late at night when practically all passenger service has ended. There was no weather issue. There were no other acts of God. There was just an abysmal lack of planning by Atmrak for something that happens every year about this time. How difficult is it to add a third conductor for several days, or a week, to some trains? Are there no spare coaches available anymore on the Pacific Surfliner system for certain trains? Does the commissary need a half-year to order extra items, like soft drinks, sandwiches and beer?

The two conductors were apologizing profusely for much of the way, both over the PA system and individually to discomforted passengers, for what they repeatedly called "the Pacific Surfliner" mess.

Another self-inflicted wound by Amtrak on Amtrak, which can never gets it act together, esp. when there are a lot of first-time travelers--to the point where the young adult passengers who are much more willing to put up with snafus than the persons on this forum were talking about Amtrak with disgust.

Way to go Amtrak!!

 

[the_traveler]

I'm not apologizing for Amtrak, but take these factors into account before you blame Amtrak;

1. The Surfliner is unreserved, meaning you can take any train. This does result in SRO conditions on certain trains at certain times. So do you put extra cars and crew on this train or the next one - and then people chose the next one, and you say "why not ad to that train"?
   
2. The coaches used on the Surfliner ARE NOT owned by Amtrak! They are ownedby the state of California! And there are not any spares. So either have the state pay $xxx MILLION for additional cars and have them either run almost empty or sit unused for 45-50 weeks a year, or suffer some inconvenience for a few days.
3. To put "another 1 or 2 conductors" on the train, you first have to hire them and train them for years. Or do you want to take conductors from other routes leaving those routes short?
   

These are only a few things to consider.

 

[RRUserious]

Truth is that for the most part, all train service is trapped in a budgetary box. Hardly any of it can count on the gazillions in investment money put into cars and planes. So don't ever expect the service to be as scaleable as other forms of transportation. Frankly, America is lucky to have any train service at all. If Wall Street made the decision, the stock brokers would ride to work on trains and everyone else would get to choose between driving, flying, or busing.

 

[NY Penn]

I'm not apologizing for Amtrak, but take these factors into account before you blame Amtrak;

1. The Surfliner is unreserved, meaning you can take any train. This does result in SRO conditions on certain trains at certain times. So do you put extra cars and crew on this train or the next one - and then people chose the next one, and you say "why not ad to that train"?
   
2. The coaches used on the Surfliner ARE NOT owned by Amtrak! They are ownedby the state of California! And there are not any spares. So either have the state pay $xxx MILLION for additional cars and have them either run almost empty or sit unused for 45-50 weeks a year, or suffer some inconvenience for a few days.
3. To put "another 1 or 2 conductors" on the train, you first have to hire them and train them for years. Or do you want to take conductors from other routes leaving those routes short?
   

These are only a few things to consider.

I'm not the OP, but I'll reply to this one.

1. If there is a period where a significantly higher number of people will be traveling, you try to add cars to as many trains as possible.

2. There are no spares? So what happens when a car goes for an FRA inspection? Or when equipment breaks down?

There ARE spares, so the inspections can be rescheduled (as was done, IIRC, when the CONO received 5 extra coaches over Thanksgiving) and the extra cars sent onto the route.

3. Have you never heard of the extra list? Such as the list that conductors come from when somebody calls out sick?

So yes, if Amtrak can manage it over Thanksgiving, but can't manage it here, there's nothing but incompetence.

EDIT: RRUserious: What does money have anything to do with it? It doesn't cost that much to add a car or two to a train. While yes, the fiscal situation could be better for Amtrak, it's not relevant.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

Sorry but cramming hundreds of people into a few cars is not the answer. Since this event happens every year they could add a couple superliner cars.. I don't care if it's unreserved it's not a intercity bus you don't keep shoving people in until the point the car is going to burst at the seams cause in the event of a emergency you got people clogging the doors preventing others from getting out. Amtrak can do better. or what they could do is make it reserved only during the time the event is in town.

 

[TimePeace]

>>Another self-inflicted wound by Amtrak on Amtrak, which can never gets it act together<<

An excellent attitude to bring to the forum as a guest. We will be sure to look for other useful contributions from you.

 

[NY Penn]

>>Another self-inflicted wound by Amtrak on Amtrak, which can never gets it act together<<

An excellent attitude to bring to the forum as a guest. We will be sure to look for other useful contributions from you.

Truth hurts, right?

With just some simple coordination, Amtrak could have added a few cars to the trains that day. It didn't, and probably discouraged quite a few people from riding Amtrak. That's purely Amtrak's fault, nobody else's.

And why does it matter whether this person is a guest? Would it matter if a long-time member posted it?

 

[yarrow]

I'm not apologizing for Amtrak, but take these factors into account before you blame Amtrak;

1. The Surfliner is unreserved, meaning you can take any train. This does result in SRO conditions on certain trains at certain times. So do you put extra cars and crew on this train or the next one - and then people chose the next one, and you say "why not ad to that train"?
   
2. The coaches used on the Surfliner ARE NOT owned by Amtrak! They are ownedby the state of California! And there are not any spares. So either have the state pay $xxx MILLION for additional cars and have them either run almost empty or sit unused for 45-50 weeks a year, or suffer some inconvenience for a few days.
3. To put "another 1 or 2 conductors" on the train, you first have to hire them and train them for years. Or do you want to take conductors from other routes leaving those routes short?
   

These are only a few things to consider.

once again you name what you think are facts (no extra coaches, no extra staff)without having the information to back them up.

 

[RRUserious]

Hard to really know when you ride a train for the first time WHY something is so screwed up. All you know is that the trip isn't very pleasant. Real train lovers are gonna shake it off and plan their next trip. But how far would the train routes get serving only "real train lovers"? Of course, I don't think trains are going out of business, but they could chill any hopes of growth. Every unhappy customer is a voter who'll be receptive to claims that Amtrak can't run a proper business. Just a sad political fact. I don't really care if there are " good explanations". That tends not to save businesses that drive customers away.

 

[zephyr17]

Nice to hear the Surfliners are SRO and got all that extra revenue. They are a very popular service, and has been for years and will continue to be as the leading corridor outside the NEC. Thanks for the good news.

 

[TimePeace]

>>Another self-inflicted wound by Amtrak on Amtrak, which can never gets it act together<<

An excellent attitude to bring to the forum as a guest. We will be sure to look for other useful contributions from you.

Truth hurts, right?

With just some simple coordination, Amtrak could have added a few cars to the trains that day. It didn't, and probably discouraged quite a few people from riding Amtrak. That's purely Amtrak's fault, nobody else's.

And why does it matter whether this person is a guest? Would it matter if a long-time member posted it?

Actually, I'm sorry to say you're right, he or she fits right in with a lot of members... mostly full of complaints.

This forum seems pretty well divided into two groups: those who like riding on trains - for all their shortcomings - and those that mostly complain about them. And those folks are equally welcome. So no, it makes no difference that it's a guest.

As far as discouraging new riders: I wonder how many folks have looked in here and said "nahhhh, sounds like a hassle, let's fly."

Once again, whine on folks.

 

[NY Penn]

>>Another self-inflicted wound by Amtrak on Amtrak, which can never gets it act together<<

An excellent attitude to bring to the forum as a guest. We will be sure to look for other useful contributions from you.

Truth hurts, right?

With just some simple coordination, Amtrak could have added a few cars to the trains that day. It didn't, and probably discouraged quite a few people from riding Amtrak. That's purely Amtrak's fault, nobody else's.

And why does it matter whether this person is a guest? Would it matter if a long-time member posted it?

Actually, I'm sorry to say you're right, he or she fits right in with a lot of members... mostly full of complaints.

This forum seems pretty well divided into two groups: those who like riding on trains - for all their shortcomings - and those that mostly complain about them. And those folks are equally welcome. So no, it makes no difference that it's a guest.

Once again, whine on folks.

When there's no explanation, the apologists resort to accusing everyone else of whining. Typical.

There's NO EXPLANATION of why Amtrak screwed up. And that's driving lots of customers away. Of course, there are those who would ride the trains even if they traveled at the speed of a snail, with no AC/heat and rude staff, but most people are LOGICAL and choose the best service.

It's no surprise that the majority is mostly full of complaints. Although some people post trip reports after a good experience, there is more of a reason to do so after a bad trip. And given that, frankly, there's almost always something to complain about on Amtrak, there are going to be a lot of complaints.

EDIT

>>As far as discouraging new riders: I wonder how many folks have looked in here and said "nahhhh, sounds like a hassle, let's fly."<<

There are almost definitely more first-time riders on Amtrak than first-time readers of this forum (I'm going by what people on this forum have said). Even so, that has nothing to do with Amtrak's failure to provide a decent service.

 

[TimePeace]

>>Another self-inflicted wound by Amtrak on Amtrak, which can never gets it act together<<

An excellent attitude to bring to the forum as a guest. We will be sure to look for other useful contributions from you.

Truth hurts, right?

With just some simple coordination, Amtrak could have added a few cars to the trains that day. It didn't, and probably discouraged quite a few people from riding Amtrak. That's purely Amtrak's fault, nobody else's.

And why does it matter whether this person is a guest? Would it matter if a long-time member posted it?

Actually, I'm sorry to say you're right, he or she fits right in with a lot of members... mostly full of complaints.

This forum seems pretty well divided into two groups: those who like riding on trains - for all their shortcomings - and those that mostly complain about them. And those folks are equally welcome. So no, it makes no difference that it's a guest.

Once again, whine on folks.

When there's no explanation, the apologists resort to accusing everyone else of whining. Typical.

There's NO EXPLANATION of why Amtrak screwed up. And that's driving lots of customers away. Of course, there are those who would ride the trains even if they traveled at the speed of a snail, with no AC/heat and rude staff, but most people are LOGICAL and choose the best service.

It's no surprise that the majority is mostly full of complaints. Although some people post trip reports after a good experience, there is more of a reason to do so after a bad trip. And given that, frankly, there's almost always something to complain about on Amtrak, there are going to be a lot of complaints.

EDIT

>>As far as discouraging new riders: I wonder how many folks have looked in here and said "nahhhh, sounds like a hassle, let's fly."<<

There are almost definitely more first-time riders on Amtrak than first-time readers of this forum (I'm going by what people on this forum have said). Even so, that has nothing to do with Amtrak's failure to provide a decent service.

To reiterate: Whine on - and see if it makes your life any better.

 

[NY Penn]

To reiterate: Whine on - and see if it makes your life any better.

It's sad that that's your best argument.

Fact is, there's no explaining this away. It is what it is.

 

[TimePeace]

To reiterate: Whine on - and see if it makes your life any better.

It's sad that that's your best argument.

Fact is, there's no explaining this away. It is what it is.

I don't find it sad at all that you just spoke the truth. *It is what it is*. But what you need to do is learn to get used to it. Or else find a way to change it. Can you make a case that all the complaining and badmouthing of Amtrak management does any good?

 

[Mackensen]

I'm surprised that no one's picked up on the Traveler's most important point: the equipment belongs to the California Department of Transportation (Caltrans). Amtrak operates these trains under the "Amtrak California" brand but most of the money comes from California. The tracks belong to a mixture of freight railroads and Metrolink.

Any service expansion would probably require additional funding from Caltrans, and last I heard California's got budget problems. Furthermore, we know there isn't extra Surfliner equipment because 798/799 runs with single-level equipment, much to everyone's annoyance.

I won't accuse anyone of whining. I will, however, gently suggest that blame, if blame is to be assessed, belongs with the state agencies and not with Amtrak, unless we find out that Caltrans was ready with the money to expand service and Amtrak simply refused to do it.

Any takers?

 

[GG-1]

Aloha

How about considering the true situation. 12,000 people attend this event. Amtrak and the San Diego Convention Center accommodated everyone in a manner that has resulted in a multiple repeat event.

 

[Paulus]

I'm surprised that no one's picked up on the Traveler's most important point: the equipment belongs to the California Department of Transportation (Caltrans). Amtrak operates these trains under the "Amtrak California" brand but most of the money comes from California. The tracks belong to a mixture of freight railroads and Metrolink.

Any service expansion would probably require additional funding from Caltrans, and last I heard California's got budget problems. Furthermore, we know there isn't extra Surfliner equipment because 798/799 runs with single-level equipment, much to everyone's annoyance.

I won't accuse anyone of whining. I will, however, gently suggest that blame, if blame is to be assessed, belongs with the state agencies and not with Amtrak, unless we find out that Caltrans was ready with the money to expand service and Amtrak simply refused to do it.

Any takers?

PSL equipment, with the exception of seven Superliners that Caltrans leased in exchange for repairing them, is owned by Amtrak, not the State of California.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

Amtrak may not have extra surfliner cars but I'm sure they could scrounge up a couple superliner cars to handle the extra masses.It's not like this comic con happened at the last minute. It's held every year amtrak can plain ahead and find a few extra superliners to handle the extra load. Ether that or make the trains reserved so they don't become overcrowded and look like the unreserved trains in india. If amtrak can do it over thanksgiving then why can't they do it here. Also If amtrak has no spare conductors or engineers then what happeneds when a conductor or engineer calls in sick and can't make it. Does that train get cancelled cause theres no one to run it.

 

[Mackensen]

I'm surprised that no one's picked up on the Traveler's most important point: the equipment belongs to the California Department of Transportation (Caltrans). Amtrak operates these trains under the "Amtrak California" brand but most of the money comes from California. The tracks belong to a mixture of freight railroads and Metrolink.

Any service expansion would probably require additional funding from Caltrans, and last I heard California's got budget problems. Furthermore, we know there isn't extra Surfliner equipment because 798/799 runs with single-level equipment, much to everyone's annoyance.

I won't accuse anyone of whining. I will, however, gently suggest that blame, if blame is to be assessed, belongs with the state agencies and not with Amtrak, unless we find out that Caltrans was ready with the money to expand service and Amtrak simply refused to do it.

Any takers?

PSL equipment, with the exception of seven Superliners that Caltrans leased in exchange for repairing them, is owned by Amtrak, not the State of California.

I'm pretty sure that's not the case, though I'm open to being proved wrong. To the best of my knowledge the "California Cars" were bought by California (using money from Prop 108 and 116) and are only used on Surfliner route. Amtrak California (which is Caltrans) thinks so too (see here and here for examples). I think I've seen a California Car outside the state once in my life.

 

[Paulus]

I really should register one of these days.

I'm surprised that no one's picked up on the Traveler's most important point: the equipment belongs to the California Department of Transportation (Caltrans). Amtrak operates these trains under the "Amtrak California" brand but most of the money comes from California. The tracks belong to a mixture of freight railroads and Metrolink.

Any service expansion would probably require additional funding from Caltrans, and last I heard California's got budget problems. Furthermore, we know there isn't extra Surfliner equipment because 798/799 runs with single-level equipment, much to everyone's annoyance.

I won't accuse anyone of whining. I will, however, gently suggest that blame, if blame is to be assessed, belongs with the state agencies and not with Amtrak, unless we find out that Caltrans was ready with the money to expand service and Amtrak simply refused to do it.

Any takers?

PSL equipment, with the exception of seven Superliners that Caltrans leased in exchange for repairing them, is owned by Amtrak, not the State of California.

I'm pretty sure that's not the case, though I'm open to being proved wrong. To the best of my knowledge the "California Cars" were bought by California (using money from Prop 108 and 116) and are only used on Surfliner route. Amtrak California (which is Caltrans) thinks so too (see here and here for examples). I think I've seen a California Car outside the state once in my life.

California Cars are indeed owned by Caltrans, but they are used only on San Joaquin and Capitol Corridor. Surfliner cars are different, though built to the same plans (I think with some minor differences, not sure), and are entirely owned by Amtrak along with all the engines.

 

[Mackensen]

Amtrak may not have extra surfliner cars but I'm sure they could scrounge up a couple superliner cars to handle the extra masses.It's not like this comic con happened at the last minute. It's held every year amtrak can plain ahead and find a few extra superliners to handle the extra load. Ether that or make the trains reserved so they don't become overcrowded and look like the unreserved trains in india. If amtrak can do it over thanksgiving then why can't they do it here. Also If amtrak has no spare conductors or engineers then what happeneds when a conductor or engineer calls in sick and can't make it. Does that train get cancelled cause theres no one to run it.

Thanksgiving is an interesting case study. It's truly an all-hands-on-deck situation; Amtrak even leases electric multiple units from New Jersey Transit for use on the Corridor.

Last year's press release.

There's interesting stuff in there. Capacity was added to the Surfliners, and they were made reservation only. Note this too:

"Anticipating the busiest travel week of the year, Amtrak, the California Department of Transportation (Caltrans) and the Capitol Corridor Joint Powers Authority (CCJPA) are planning ahead for Thanksgiving by adding extra equipment to accommodate extra passengers traveling by rail throughout California"

Apparently Amtrak and Caltrans didn't think Comic-Con was a big enough event, or there simply wasn't equipment available. Amtrak only manages Thanksgiving by operating everything it has, with little or nothing in reserve and (I think) normal maintenance cycles curtailed. 3200 extra seats on the Surfliner is pretty impressive; I'd love to know how many coaches that represents. Obviously some trainsets were turned so it's not as simple as dividing 3200 by a car's capacity. We also don't know what was used.

 

[TVRM610]

I HAVE been accused of being an apologist before... but I would like to say one thing about the staff. It is NOT necessary to have more than 2 Conductors on the train in order to increase staff.. you can add Coach Attendants. In fact, adding more Conductors would be a waste of money (they are paid more, and count as Operating Staff with the FRA etc.). I'm sure there are Attendants available on the Extra board in Cali... so that is one call that could of certainly been made.

I can say that this is everyday life on NJ Transit and probably countless other transit companies across the world. Have you ever seen video of the trains in Japan during rush hour? This happens when transit gets maxed out. When there is traffic do you insist that an extra lane should be added? Now I know it SOUNDS simple to "add extra cars" but as others have asked are the cars available? Are the platforms on this route long enough to handle extra cars and if so.. how many? As for adding an extra train.. that means extra locomotives, an extra trains set, an entire operating crew and scheduling the train for meets etc. Is this route capable of adding extra trains? (double track? siding? can meets work?) and who is responsible for making sure that would logistically work? I'm not saying it's possible or not.. I'm just saying it sounds alot easier then it is.

 

[Exiled in Express]

I have 2 friends attending this event, I was briefly pushing for flights into LAX and the Surfliner down due to better timing and cost. They ended up delaying a decision and Southwest won their business to SAN directly. Gladthey opted to stay off the railway if this was the outcome, I never would have won them back to rail after that.

It seems like some of the subpar third party agency equipment that is pressed into service during the holiday period on the NEC could be repositioned for these events.

 

[rusty spike]

I don't know about extra operating crew as in conductors, but Amtrak California is a branded entity of, and is "funded and managed" by CalTrans (California State Dept of Transportation); Amtrak is contracted only to operate the equipment provided them.

About AmtrakCalifornia.

Having said that, Amtrak will get all the blame on this, and maybe they should, but in this case we are dealing with two separate agencies, Federal & State Departments of Transportation. It's amazing it runs as smoothly as it does.