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Narrowing down the largest markets that do not have ANY passenger rail service:

1. Los Angeles-Las Vegas

2. Houston-Dallas

3. Chicago-Atlanta-Miami

My sentiment is that lets get all the largest markets around the country served by at least some service first, then add frequencies and speed to existing services. I read that the Heartland Flyer was started as a trial service through a grant by the federal government. Could the FRA provide grants to initiate new routes?
It could, if Congress gives it the money. FRA by itself has no money to distribute.

Incidentally I understand that any practical usable service from Chicago to Atlanta will probably take more money than can be found for that purpose.
I agree. ATL-MIA could believably work (and I think you might even be able to make through cars to either the Crescent or to a daylight ATL-WAS-NYP train work under the right scheduling environment), but north of Atlanta things more or less head off to visit Helena Handbasket. For the record, this would strike me as a way to get the CLT-Florida service mooted in the PIP last year running without actually screwing with the Star's schedule.
Narrowing down the largest markets that do not have ANY passenger rail service:

1. Los Angeles-Las Vegas

2. Houston-Dallas

3. Chicago-Atlanta-Miami

My sentiment is that lets get all the largest markets around the country served by at least some service first, then add frequencies and speed to existing services. I read that the Heartland Flyer was started as a trial service through a grant by the federal government. Could the FRA provide grants to initiate new routes?
It could, if Congress gives it the money. FRA by itself has no money to distribute.

Incidentally I understand that any practical usable service from Chicago to Atlanta will probably take more money than can be found for that purpose.
I agree. ATL-MIA could believably work (and I think you might even be able to make through cars to either the Crescent or to a daylight ATL-WAS-NYP train work under the right scheduling environment), but north of Atlanta things more or less head off to visit Helena Handbasket. For the record, this would strike me as a way to get the CLT-Florida service mooted in the PIP last year running without actually screwing with the Star's schedule.
Actually, things might work n0orth of ATL if you go to BHM then to MEM and maybe even KCY. Just like the old KC-FS.

6. DEN-DAL, Amtrak also needs this connection and it serves new markets.
Since it would effecively restore the Chief Connection, it would also serve DEN, ABQ, LAX
This does not make sense at all.
 
A hypothetical HSR running 220mph Atlanta-Chattanooga-Monteagle-Manchester-Murfreesboro-Nashville would take 1:38. Upgrading all the track to 79mph would cost into the billions for a 5:30 trip uncompetitive with driving more than likely on just Atlanta-Nashville. By the time you spend that much, you might as well just cut a new HSR segment Atlanta-Nashville-St. Louis-Chicago (and points in between) and run trains at 220mph on it for a 5 hour end to end run time, competitive with airlines when the convenience factors are factored in, competitive time-wise with airlines over certain segments, and beats driving on any segment.
You do know that Monteagle sort of has a mountain of its own. It is very beautiful but would be quite a task building a railroad up it And you would not want to leave out Tullahoma. That was the only stop the streamliners back then made between Chattanooga and Nashville. It is significant beyond its population since it has some federal military business which name I cannot remember....and of course my father was born there!!!
 
A hypothetical HSR running 220mph Atlanta-Chattanooga-Monteagle-Manchester-Murfreesboro-Nashville would take 1:38. Upgrading all the track to 79mph would cost into the billions for a 5:30 trip uncompetitive with driving more than likely on just Atlanta-Nashville. By the time you spend that much, you might as well just cut a new HSR segment Atlanta-Nashville-St. Louis-Chicago (and points in between) and run trains at 220mph on it for a 5 hour end to end run time, competitive with airlines when the convenience factors are factored in, competitive time-wise with airlines over certain segments, and beats driving on any segment.
You do know that Monteagle sort of has a mountain of its own. It is very beautiful but would be quite a task building a railroad up it And you would not want to leave out Tullahoma. That was the only stop the streamliners back then made between Chattanooga and Nashville. It is significant beyond its population since it has some federal military business which name I cannot remember....and of course my father was born there!!!
Turn slightly south of east out of Tullahoma, approximatelly 4 mile tunnel under Monteagle Mountain, follow valley with Battle Creek down to Tennessee River, stay at river level, cutting off the large bends with tunnels, etc., reduces the Nashville to Chattanooga distance to about 130 miles, from 151 miles. There are potential cutoffs between Chatanooga and Atlanta, but it is more complex. Given the current amount of NIMBYism and Don't build anything anywhere ism, plus the money required will probably never happen.
 
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Here is a website that has airline traffic data for all metro pairs in the US- http://www.dot.gov/p...onsumer-report. To me, LA-Vegas and Houston-Dallas clearly stick out given their large volumes and short distances. Chi-Florida also sticks out because it has several large, overlapping markets along the way (Chi-Atl, Atl-FL, Chi-FL, etc.).
 
Here is a website that has airline traffic data for all metro pairs in the US- http://www.dot.gov/p...onsumer-report. To me, LA-Vegas and Houston-Dallas clearly stick out given their large volumes and short distances. Chi-Florida also sticks out because it has several large, overlapping markets along the way (Chi-Atl, Atl-FL, Chi-FL, etc.).
US DOT has been moving stuff around on their website. I think this is the page you were trying to link:

Consumer Air Fare Report

Table 6 provides the O&D passenger counts.
 
Here is a website that has airline traffic data for all metro pairs in the US- http://www.dot.gov/p...onsumer-report. To me, LA-Vegas and Houston-Dallas clearly stick out given their large volumes and short distances. Chi-Florida also sticks out because it has several large, overlapping markets along the way (Chi-Atl, Atl-FL, Chi-FL, etc.).
US DOT has been moving stuff around on their website. I think this is the page you were trying to link:

Consumer Air Fare Report

Table 6 provides the O&D passenger counts.
Yes thank you, that's the site. Clicking on the quarter and scrolling down also gives you the O&D passenger counts by increasing distance.
 
Lots of wasted energy here, I must say. Reality: in the current political and economic climate, the odds of adding a passenger train that runs longer than 400 miles is virtually zero. Even the odds of adding a passenger train that runs longer than 250 miles is slim. Corridors, folks. That's the answer, railfan interest notwithstanding. You don't need sleepers, don't need dining cars, and one or two states can fund the operation (including acquiring the equipment and making necessary track improvements).
 
I agree with xyzzy.regarding corridors. If the existing rail lines can't support speeds to compete with driving, a passenger train is not going to work unless you have states like California, Illinois, North Carolina and a few others that support passenger trains and will allocate funds for railway upgrades or build new rail lines. Keep in mind most of the rail lines were built in the 19th century with few upgrades and in many cases downgrades when one of the double tracks was removed. A 19th century transportation system is not going to compete in the 21st century. I understand there were those who wanted to keep stage coaches when passenger trains became the preferred way to travel.
 
I still say more and faster Chicago-intermediate points-NYC service should be a priority. The end-to-end traffic is in some sense a bonus in this case; it's also a whole bunch of corridors. Chicago-NYC, on any of the reasonable routes (not the Cardinal!) has many large intermediate cities.
 
I still say more and faster Chicago-intermediate points-NYC service should be a priority. The end-to-end traffic is in some sense a bonus in this case; it's also a whole bunch of corridors. Chicago-NYC, on any of the reasonable routes (not the Cardinal!) has many large intermediate cities.
I would agree with this. Whether along the current Lake Shore Limited route or the Capitol Limited-Pennsylvanian route, reasonable corridors line up and overlap with each other.
 
I still say more and faster Chicago-intermediate points-NYC service should be a priority. The end-to-end traffic is in some sense a bonus in this case; it's also a whole bunch of corridors. Chicago-NYC, on any of the reasonable routes (not the Cardinal!) has many large intermediate cities.
I would agree with this. Whether along the current Lake Shore Limited route or the Capitol Limited-Pennsylvanian route, reasonable corridors line up and overlap with each other.
I also agree with this. Especially considering the multitude of toll roads along either route.
 
I still say more and faster Chicago-intermediate points-NYC service should be a priority. The end-to-end traffic is in some sense a bonus in this case; it's also a whole bunch of corridors. Chicago-NYC, on any of the reasonable routes (not the Cardinal!) has many large intermediate cities.
I would agree with this. Whether along the current Lake Shore Limited route or the Capitol Limited-Pennsylvanian route, reasonable corridors line up and overlap with each other.
I agree, too, but I think there are problems with the infrastructure comparing the trans-Appalachian rail corridors with the competing highways.

For example, Washington-Pittsburgh is 245 miles if you drive via I-70 and the Pennsylvania Turnpike, but the B&O rail route via Cumberland is 299 miles. That explains right off why one can make the drive in 5 hours, while the fastest train service I heard of on the route was 6 hours by the B&O in the 1050s-1960s. The current Capitol Limited takes about 8 hours, but given the wicked curves along the route and the stiff grades going over the Allegheny Front, the train must run a good part of the way under 50 mph. Buses and gars can whiz up some pretty stiff grades at 65-70 mph with little trouble (i.e. Town Hill on I 70 or the approach to the Allegeheny Tunnel and crossing of Laurel Hill on the Trnpike.). I'm not sure what's the stiffest grade a passenger train can run at 70+ mph. I got to experience this first hand when I was bustituted last year from Pittsburgh to DC. The bus left Pittsburgh at 8 AM, about 4 hours after the terminated train was supposed to leave, but we got into Washington more or less on time, and that included a pit stop in Breezewood to buy something to eat. ( I was a bit embarassed to inquire at Customer Service about a refund given that we arrived on schedule, but I was traveling sleeper and thought I deserved some consideration for being rousted out of bed and denied breakfast, and they did refund what they considred the pro-rated values of a Pittsburgh-DC sleeper accommodation.

This is true for the other routes, too. I imagine. Driving New York to Cleveland is 459 miles via I-80. The alternatove Water-Level Route (Lake Shore Limited) is 618 miles. Harrisburg-Pittsburgh (Keystone West) is 203 miles on the Turnpike, 249 miles on the train route, which includes the stiff grade over the Horseshow curve. (The turnpike has a stiff grade right before the Allegheny tunnel, but, as I mentioned, cars and buses can whiz up it at 70 mph.) To get corridor service over the Applachians that's competitive with driving or buses, I think some real expensive rail route realighnments and vast public works will be needed. I also don't think there's much political will for funding such ublic works.

.
 
I still say more and faster Chicago-intermediate points-NYC service should be a priority. The end-to-end traffic is in some sense a bonus in this case; it's also a whole bunch of corridors. Chicago-NYC, on any of the reasonable routes (not the Cardinal!) has many large intermediate cities.
I would agree with this. Whether along the current Lake Shore Limited route or the Capitol Limited-Pennsylvanian route, reasonable corridors line up and overlap with each other.
I agree, too, but I think there are problems with the infrastructure comparing the trans-Appalachian rail corridors with the competing highways.

For example, Washington-Pittsburgh is 245 miles if you drive via I-70 and the Pennsylvania Turnpike, but the B&O rail route via Cumberland is 299 miles. That explains right off why one can make the drive in 5 hours, while the fastest train service I heard of on the route was 6 hours by the B&O in the 1050s-1960s. The current Capitol Limited takes about 8 hours, but given the wicked curves along the route and the stiff grades going over the Allegheny Front, the train must run a good part of the way under 50 mph. Buses and gars can whiz up some pretty stiff grades at 65-70 mph with little trouble (i.e. Town Hill on I 70 or the approach to the Allegeheny Tunnel and crossing of Laurel Hill on the Trnpike.). I'm not sure what's the stiffest grade a passenger train can run at 70+ mph. I got to experience this first hand when I was bustituted last year from Pittsburgh to DC. The bus left Pittsburgh at 8 AM, about 4 hours after the terminated train was supposed to leave, but we got into Washington more or less on time, and that included a pit stop in Breezewood to buy something to eat. ( I was a bit embarassed to inquire at Customer Service about a refund given that we arrived on schedule, but I was traveling sleeper and thought I deserved some consideration for being rousted out of bed and denied breakfast, and they did refund what they considred the pro-rated values of a Pittsburgh-DC sleeper accommodation.

This is true for the other routes, too. I imagine. Driving New York to Cleveland is 459 miles via I-80. The alternatove Water-Level Route (Lake Shore Limited) is 618 miles. Harrisburg-Pittsburgh (Keystone West) is 203 miles on the Turnpike, 249 miles on the train route, which includes the stiff grade over the Horseshow curve. (The turnpike has a stiff grade right before the Allegheny tunnel, but, as I mentioned, cars and buses can whiz up it at 70 mph.) To get corridor service over the Applachians that's competitive with driving or buses, I think some real expensive rail route realighnments and vast public works will be needed. I also don't think there's much political will for funding such ublic works.
While what you say is true, you are looking at the worst places on the route. If you look at NYP-BUF or CLE-CHI, trains are fast and don't suffer from detours. So, for LD travel, NYP-CHI could definately use another train at a 17-18-hour schedule. Then a CLe-CHI day train could provide support. I don't see the big problem here.

The problem is with the SD trips and the heavily graded routes. Here, Greyhound's new or refurbished buses make the trip much more quickly, cheaply, and frequently. Their comfort and stations are getting improved, too. Here Amtrak probably won't get much business unless people just want to ride a relaxing train.
 
I still say more and faster Chicago-intermediate points-NYC service should be a priority. The end-to-end traffic is in some sense a bonus in this case; it's also a whole bunch of corridors. Chicago-NYC, on any of the reasonable routes (not the Cardinal!) has many large intermediate cities.
I would agree with this. Whether along the current Lake Shore Limited route or the Capitol Limited-Pennsylvanian route, reasonable corridors line up and overlap with each other.
I agree, too, but I think there are problems with the infrastructure comparing the trans-Appalachian rail corridors with the competing highways.
While what you say is true, you are looking at the worst places on the route. If you look at NYP-BUF or CLE-CHI, trains are fast and don't suffer from detours. So, for LD travel, NYP-CHI could definately use another train at a 17-18-hour schedule. Then a CLe-CHI day train could provide support. I don't see the big problem here.

The problem is with the SD trips and the heavily graded routes. Here, Greyhound's new or refurbished buses make the trip much more quickly, cheaply, and frequently. Their comfort and stations are getting improved, too. Here Amtrak probably won't get much business unless people just want to ride a relaxing train.
Oh, sure, Cleveland-Chicago is definitely a possibility. Also Toledo-Pittsburgh. I was referring to the city pairs that involve crossing the mountains -- New York -PIttsburgh or Cleveland, Philadelphia-Harrisburg-Pittsburgh, Washington-Pittsburgh, etc. Going from New York to Cleveland by the Water Level Route doesn't involve crossing the Mountains, but it is a 150 mile detour compared to driving across I-80. In fact, I'm curious about how frieght is competitive with trucks on these routes, considering that the rail routes are a lot longer than the highway routes. (I'm thinking of stuff like all those double stack containers and car carriers, not the bulk coal trains.)

For some corridors, like the Keystone West, there is no bus service. (I know this, my daughter attend Juniata College in Huntingdon, and the Pennsylvania is the only public transport available.) Also, the bus, no matter how comfortable, is always an inferior choice to a train when the trip times start exceeding 4 hours or so. The bus has to make pit stops for people to eat and such, whih slows down the trip times. A train carries its eating facilities along with it and (theoretically at least) doesn't have to make as many long stops.
 
Oh, sure, Cleveland-Chicago is definitely a possibility. Also Toledo-Pittsburgh. I was referring to the city pairs that involve crossing the mountains -- New York -PIttsburgh or Cleveland, Philadelphia-Harrisburg-Pittsburgh, Washington-Pittsburgh, etc. Going from New York to Cleveland by the Water Level Route doesn't involve crossing the Mountains, but it is a 150 mile detour compared to driving across I-80. In fact, I'm curious about how frieght is competitive with trucks on these routes, considering that the rail routes are a lot longer than the highway routes. (I'm thinking of stuff like all those double stack containers and car carriers, not the bulk coal trains.)
I believe there's really two things going on on the Water Level Route. First, there's traffic from Chicago (or Cleveland or points in between) to upstate NY and New England. That's the "west of Albany" Water Level Route. Train is totally competitive with truck.

Second, there's the NYC-upstate NY route. Again, train is totally competitive with truck.

For freight actually headed to NYC from the Midwest, the Water Level Route is not particularly popular. See what I mean when I say this is really a bunch of corridors which overlap?

Another important point: long-haul trucking is very expensive to operate thanks to gas prices -- and on these routes it's gas prices *plus* truck tolls -- and so train service is often worth it even if it's a bit slower. This is what keeps container trains on the Philadelphia-Pittsburgh line, even running from the Chicago area to the NYC area.

Now, back to passengers. Again, this is overlapping corridors. I've already explained the Lake Shore Limited.

On the Broadway Limited route, Philadelphia-Pittsburgh seems to be viable for train service despite the slow route through the mountains -- isn't that interesting? Perhaps this is because of the lack of bus service which you mention, and the decline in air service. Pittsburgh-intermediate points-Chicago is certainly viable. The decline in the alternative services is a key point here: the bus service from points in between NY and Chicago to either end is getting terrible, while the air service has dropped a lot from its former levels.

Now, there is a lot of endpoint-to-middle traffic to capture on these routes. NYC is the biggest metro area in the world and Chicago is the second-biggest -- so they attract travellers from further away than comfortable driving distances. But they're still within plausible train distance of all the points along the route (single-overnight at worst). When air service declines in frequency and quality, the result is burgeoning demand for train service. Syracuse-Chicago is one of the most popular city pairs on the Lake Shore Limited. Detroit-NYC is the most-requested city pair which Amtrak doesn't serve, as of a few years ago.

The third NYC-Chicago route which should be operated is the route through Canada, and this is partly because NYC-Detroit is a high-demand route, and partly because Detroit-Upstate NY is also in demand -- and this route is about as fast as any other way of getting from NYC to Detroit. Unfortunately there are problems with this (restrictive border policies, deterioration of track in Canada). Suitable funding (which I wouldn't expect from the feds, Michigan, or anywhere in Canada, so it seems unlikely -- perhaps from NY eventually) could buy the Canada Southern tracks and restore the Michigan Central's route.

The Cardinal travels roughly the fourth route which should be operated, though it goes far too slowly and unreliably. I would not expect a lot of through traffic across the mountains, but then, there's traffic from West Virginia into Virginia and DC, and traffic from West Virginia towards Cincinnati, and then there's the corridor from Cincinnati to Indianapolis to Chicago. That would probably exhaust the corridors which can be assembled into NYC-Chicago patterns, although ideally there might be more extensive connections across Ohio and Indiana.

Of course I agree that these routes would be better with some new construction. This can be done incrementally. On the Pennsylvanian, it ought to be redirected from Harrisburg to State College before heading back towards Altoona; this is surprisingly straightfoward and wouldn't lengthen the route, but it would add a whole lot of passengers. Piecemeal tunnels and bypasses could then be used speed up the route from Altoona to Pittsburgh.
 
NYC is the biggest metro area in the world and Chicago is the second-biggest
Sure on this?

When going by metro areas, NY is fourth in the world, and Chicago doesn't even make the top 20 (where the list ends)

When going by city proper, NY is 19th in the world, and Chicago isn't even in the top 65 (where the list ends)

For the record, Los Angeles as a city and a metro is larger than Chicago by all counts.
 
Oh, sure, Cleveland-Chicago is definitely a possibility. Also Toledo-Pittsburgh. I was referring to the city pairs that involve crossing the mountains -- New York -PIttsburgh or Cleveland, Philadelphia-Harrisburg-Pittsburgh, Washington-Pittsburgh, etc. Going from New York to Cleveland by the Water Level Route doesn't involve crossing the Mountains, but it is a 150 mile detour compared to driving across I-80. In fact, I'm curious about how frieght is competitive with trucks on these routes, considering that the rail routes are a lot longer than the highway routes. (I'm thinking of stuff like all those double stack containers and car carriers, not the bulk coal trains.)
Now, back to passengers. Again, this is overlapping corridors. I've already explained the Lake Shore Limited.

On the Broadway Limited route, Philadelphia-Pittsburgh seems to be viable for train service despite the slow route through the mountains -- isn't that interesting? Perhaps this is because of the lack of bus service which you mention, and the decline in air service. Pittsburgh-intermediate points-Chicago is certainly viable. The decline in the alternative services is a key point here: the bus service from points in between NY and Chicago to either end is getting terrible, while the air service has dropped a lot from its former levels.

Now, there is a lot of endpoint-to-middle traffic to capture on these routes. NYC is the biggest metro area in the world and Chicago is the second-biggest -- so they attract travellers from further away than comfortable driving distances. But they're still within plausible train distance of all the points along the route (single-overnight at worst). When air service declines in frequency and quality, the result is burgeoning demand for train service. Syracuse-Chicago is one of the most popular city pairs on the Lake Shore Limited. Detroit-NYC is the most-requested city pair which Amtrak doesn't serve, as of a few years ago.

The third NYC-Chicago route which should be operated is the route through Canada, and this is partly because NYC-Detroit is a high-demand route, and partly because Detroit-Upstate NY is also in demand -- and this route is about as fast as any other way of getting from NYC to Detroit. Unfortunately there are problems with this (restrictive border policies, deterioration of track in Canada). Suitable funding (which I wouldn't expect from the feds, Michigan, or anywhere in Canada, so it seems unlikely -- perhaps from NY eventually) could buy the Canada Southern tracks and restore the Michigan Central's route.

The Cardinal travels roughly the fourth route which should be operated, though it goes far too slowly and unreliably. I would not expect a lot of through traffic across the mountains, but then, there's traffic from West Virginia into Virginia and DC, and traffic from West Virginia towards Cincinnati, and then there's the corridor from Cincinnati to Indianapolis to Chicago. That would probably exhaust the corridors which can be assembled into NYC-Chicago patterns, although ideally there might be more extensive connections across Ohio and Indiana.

Of course I agree that these routes would be better with some new construction. This can be done incrementally. On the Pennsylvanian, it ought to be redirected from Harrisburg to State College before heading back towards Altoona; this is surprisingly straightfoward and wouldn't lengthen the route, but it would add a whole lot of passengers. Piecemeal tunnels and bypasses could then be used speed up the route from Altoona to Pittsburgh.
I won't talk about the freight part since I have little knowledge about that, but here are some points:

1. NYP-PHL-PGH has fast express buses than bypass HUN. There is also service that makes almost all the Pennsylvanian stops but just misses HUN, but it's slow. Like Tyrone, Altoona, Johntown, Latrobe, Greenburg, and others. So I think that cheap and/or fast bus service is still a threat, while an additional train would still have its place.

2. For through traffic NYP-CHI, there are two expresses buses a day that take the Shortcut across Pennsylvania. I wouldn't call that "horrible service". However, the ride is long and a train is definately more comfortable.

So basically, I support a new train NYP-PGH-CHI. I think it will get lots of pax, while buses will, too. Bus and trains are a great combo, they can co-exist and support each other.
 
I wish they would go back to having the Northeast Direct line, in the late 90s, you were able to get on the train on WOR and get to WAS directly. That would be the way to include central Mass into the NYP and WAS mix.
 
I wish they would go back to having the Northeast Direct line, in the late 90s, you were able to get on the train on WOR and get to WAS directly. That would be the way to include central Mass into the NYP and WAS mix.
The Northeast Direct is now the Northeast Regional, but the Inland Route was cut. I personally think a train on this route would be fine, but not as important as some other places.
 
Restoring Inland Route Northeast Regional service is in both Amtrak's and MA's plans, but I don't believe there is any sort of timeframe for this, other than sometime after the SPG-NHV line upgrades are finished.
 
While not necessarily "untapped", I do think the Pennsylvanian needs more frequencies. Perhaps an afternoon departure out of Pittsburgh and terminating in Philadelphia, and vice versa. That would cover the heavy in-state passenger traffic. In the long term, I'd like to see the Pennsy cut back to PHI-PGH, with a Broadway Limited route picking up the NYC-PHI section. Would be nice to get a 1 seat ride from New York to Chicago via Philly and Pittsburgh.
 
NYC is the biggest metro area in the world and Chicago is the second-biggest
Sure on this?

When going by metro areas, NY is fourth in the world, and Chicago doesn't even make the top 20 (where the list ends)

When going by city proper, NY is 19th in the world, and Chicago isn't even in the top 65 (where the list ends)

For the record, Los Angeles as a city and a metro is larger than Chicago by all counts.
Without even looking at the list Johnny refers to, I know that Mexico City, Tokyo, and Beijing metropolitian areas are all well ahead of NYC in population, Sorry, NYC folks.
 
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