Long Distance (LD) fleet replacement discussion (2022 - 2024Q1)

[Just-Thinking-51]

Whatever it takes.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

India manufactures about 7,000 passenger cars per year these days as they are in the process of replacing their entire old fleet of 40,000+ Schlieren cars by new LHB cars while growing the total number of cars significantly.

Those are newer than a lot of ours right? Maybe we should change gauge...... and buy some second hand.

 

[Awesometrainz]

I am pretty sure it’s going to be 9 car bi level sets from what I have seen .

As for who will win the bid as people are discussing they have to have prior work on rolling stock for Amtrak that leaves the options as .
Siemens
CAF
Standler
Alstom has experience but there recent quality is probably not gonna land them the bid .

Siemens is super busy so I doubt they will build the carriages

My final pick is Standler

 

[jis]

....

My final pick is Standler

Just a small clarification. By "Standler" you actually meant to say "Stadler."

 

[Septa9739]

I am pretty sure it’s going to be 9 car bi level sets from what I have seen .

I’d be curious if you could show a source on that. I don’t doubt you but 9 car sets would be probably the space equivalent of coach bag, 2 coaches, SSL, diner, 2 sleepers, transdorm. That’s about what most trains run now and is wholly inadequate and leads to poor financial and ridership performance. It would be a significant cut to pre-COVID capacity on the Coast Starlight. Theoretically they could MU sets together, but that’s a logistical nightmare for a long haul train. I’d hope the sets would come in sizes. 9 cars for trains that run sections (I.e the Empire Builder and or Sunset Limited) and less travelled routes like the City of New Orleans and then about 12 cars for most of the other runs and then some about 15 for the Starlight. It would be good to have extra coaches and sleepers ordered as singles that can be inserted for peak travel periods. It’s much easier to deadhead an empty coach than drag through an equipment shortage.

 

[west point]

Now if these cars are compatible with Superliners the SLs can be added to these trains to be surge fleet cars.

 

[Paniolo Man]

Just a small clarification. By "Standler" you actually meant to say "Stadler."

I was actually snooping by the factory today. They've started on a small expansion: "Construction of a new approx. 10,030 sq. ft. canteen building to include general and private dining areas, kitchen, food serving, storage, and restrooms."

Hoping they'll begin work on their carbody facility and final assembly expansion early next year. Stadler has more land in SLC than Siemens has in Florin. They may soon purchase additional land from the Mormon Church for a proper test track.

I'm confident they can manufacture the LD car order within the strict confines of Buy America, If I only knew how serious a bid they were planning to make.

 

[Willbridge]

I’d be curious if you could show a source on that. I don’t doubt you but 9 car sets would be probably the space equivalent of coach bag, 2 coaches, SSL, diner, 2 sleepers, transdorm. That’s about what most trains run now and is wholly inadequate and leads to poor financial and ridership performance. It would be a significant cut to pre-COVID capacity on the Coast Starlight. Theoretically they could MU sets together, but that’s a logistical nightmare for a long haul train. I’d hope the sets would come in sizes. 9 cars for trains that run sections (I.e the Empire Builder and or Sunset Limited) and less travelled routes like the City of New Orleans and then about 12 cars for most of the other runs and then some about 15 for the Starlight. It would be good to have extra coaches and sleepers ordered as singles that can be inserted for peak travel periods. It’s much easier to deadhead an empty coach than drag through an equipment shortage.

The Heritage fleet Coast Starlight ran with a minimum of 14 cars and occasionally up to 18 cars. Train 11 from Track 5 of Portland Union Station on 19 May 1973:

1. AM Baggage 1022
2. SP Dorm-Baggage 3105
3. AM Coach 4555
4. AM Coach 4531
5. AM Coach 4535
6. AM Coach 4826
7. AM Cafe 8382 "Harvest Inn"?
8. AM Coach 4543
9. AM Coach 4511
10. AM Coach 4492
11. AM Lounge 3334
12. AM Diner 8037
13. AM Sleeper 2214 "Indian Lake"
14. AM Sleeper 2714 "Pine Creek"
15. AM Sleeper 2751 "Palm Arch"?
16. AM Sleeper 2710 "Pine Arroyo"
17. SFe Sleeper "Royal Hill"

Of course, the full baggage car wouldn't be needed. In the 1970's the head-end traffic included mail and express. My 1973 roster has gone missing, but coach numbers tried to reflect the number of seats, so these were all leg-rest cars.

So, there were 312 coach seats and at 22 passengers each there were 110 berths. Later, the number of coach seats was reduced when rate umbrellas to protect Greyhound were applied.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

You have to remember that just like the new Acelas, the long distance order will no doubt have the ability to extend the length of the sets from 9 cars to however many cars Amtrak wants in each set. So I don't think the 9 car sets will be permanent, at least I hope not.

 

[MikefromCrete]

I think the nine-car concept will be a "core' train with the ability to add coaches and sleepers on head and rear ends.

 

[jis]

I think the nine-car concept will be a "core' train with the ability to add coaches and sleepers on head and rear ends.

Remember, the 9-car thing was just a conceptual diagram to get exception from the current ADA rules. What it will actually be is yet to be seen. But you are correct, whatever the core is, it will have H couplers at the tow ends of it and I am sure the vestibules and gangways will be compatible with cars that are not part of the articulated core, sort of like ti already is with the pared cores in the Midwest order.

 

[Amtrak25]

If a core train is 9 cars, the propensity for failure and train cancellation is very high. Amtrak is constantly swapping cars out for defects, often before departure. I don't care what they do in Europe and Asia, LD trains here go out for 2,000 and 4,000 mile roundtrips with no enroute support and usually little support at the outying terminal. Just look at what happens when a Viewliner is bad-ordered in Chicago or Boston. You get no substitute or maybe if "lucky" a Horizon coach. It does no good to be ADA-compliant when the train can't run. I also don' see why a wheelchair person, coach or sleeper, or anyone else needs to have the run of 9 cars. Amtrak is not going to get religion and straighten out Chicago.

 

[lordsigma]

Yes even the Airo trainsets will have H couplers at both ends. So checked baggage will remain possible on the trains where it’s currently offered. Though the conductor would have to exit the train to access the baggage car.

 

[lordsigma]

If a core train is 9 cars, the propensity for failure and train cancellation is very high. Amtrak is constantly swapping cars out for defects, often before departure. I don't care what they do in Europe and Asia, LD trains here go out for 2,000 and 4,000 mile roundtrips with no enroute support and usually little support at the outying terminal. Just look at what happens when a Viewliner is bad-ordered in Chicago or Boston. You get no substitute or maybe if "lucky" a Horizon coach. It does no good to be ADA-compliant when the train can't run. I also don' see why a wheelchair person, coach or sleeper, or anyone else needs to have the run of 9 cars. Amtrak is not going to get religion and straighten out Chicago.

I strongly disagree - in 2023 we should be doing better. It seems most of the people who don’t care or oppose this aren’t in the situation so don’t care, but in my opinion everyone should be able to visit the diner and lounge - particularly on a long distance train where that’s such a big part of it. I’m sure most people who are opposed to this would feel differently if they (or an immediate traveling companion) were affected by mobility challenges. They can figure out a way to deal with the maintenance - keeping the status quo just to make it easier for operations and maintenance is not acceptable in my opinion.

 

[Amtrak25]

Visting the diner and lounge car is not the same as have the run of 9 cars. Put the accessible coach and sleeper on either side of them, and the core becomes 4 cars. Otherwise the hotel bills and train cancellations will be piling up on a daily basis with bad ordered cars becoming bad ordered trains. All it takes is a brake shoe, flat wheel, or toilets out of order. It is also possible to have narrower wheelchairs they can use to get through tradtional gangways.

They haven't figured maintenance in 52 years and are regressing.

 

[jis]

Why are people stuck on the 9 car example used to get the waiver? It is quite possible that there will be no nine car core proposed by the vendors. The purpose of the diagram at the center of this discussion was a to get as broad a waiver as possible. That does not mean that every possible angle of the waiver will actually be used in the actual product. Of course because it is possible special interest groups will push for covering their specific interest and that may force a broader implementation than originally planned leading to larger core than originally envisaged. But at that point it won't be upto a few here objecting to something to cause it not to happen.

 

[lordsigma]

Yeah the diagrams are not set in stone - I think the main idea is a certain amount of accessible spaces on the upper level and diner and lounge access. If you went though the “9 car” example too the entire train also isn’t actually accessible. It’s mainly around the center core so that there’s sufficient accessible spaces and that they have access to the dining car and lounge space. Perhaps it will just be an accessible diner and lounge surrounded by one accessible coach and sleeper as the “trainset” and otherwise normally coupled cars. We simply don’t know yet.

 

[dlagrua]

Should Stadler get the contract; it, may be similar to what we see in this already produced sleeper car.
Stadler Sleeper Car

But I must point out that this is a single level car

 

[GDRRiley]

Yes even the Airo trainsets will have H couplers at both ends. So checked baggage will remain possible on the trains where it’s currently offered. Though the conductor would have to exit the train to access the baggage car.

AVP present an issue to sticking the baggage car between the loco and first coach unless they are going to modify a captive fleet of baggage cars to have the power cables needed

 

[GDRRiley]

The Heritage fleet Coast Starlight ran with a minimum of 14 cars and occasionally up to 18 cars. Train 11 from Track 5 of Portland Union Station on 19 May 1973:

even in 2011 they were running fairly large sets of upto 12 cars
a baggage car, Transition sleeper, three sleeping cars, Pacific Parlour Car, dining car, Sightseer Lounge, and four coaches
resulting in 312 coach seats, 42-58 roomettes, 15 bedrooms, 3 family bedrooms, 4 accessible bedrooms

 

[lordsigma]

AVP present an issue to sticking the baggage car between the loco and first coach unless they are going to modify a captive fleet of baggage cars to have the power cables needed

The locomotive and cab car ends both have standard couplers. You could couple a baggage car to whichever end isn’t leading.

 

[Mailliw]

Regarding elevators only; only the core accessible cars need them and only one elevator needs to be operational for the core trainset to be in service. Presumably the elevators will only be used when the train is stopped and need a crewmember to operate.

 

[joelkfla]

Regarding elevators only; only the core accessible cars need them and only one elevator needs to be operational for the core trainset to be in service. Presumably the elevators don't will only be used when the train is stopped and need a crewmember to operate.

The elevators on Alaska Railroad are actually enclosed screw-drive wheelchair lifts. I don't whether those are restricted to use only while the train is stopped, as they carry passengers between the dining and seating levels. But in Amtrak's case, it does seem that they would be needed only during boarding & deboarding, if the accessible accommodations were located on the upper level.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

The elevators on Alaska Railroad are actually enclosed screw-drive wheelchair lifts. I don't whether those are restricted to use only while the train is stopped, as they carry passengers between the dining and seating levels.

They also carry passengers to the restrooms. I've seen them used and I'm 90% sure it was when the train was in motion but I can't say for certain.

 

[railiner]

They also carry passengers to the restrooms. I've seen them used and I'm 90% sure it was when the train was in motion but I can't say for certain.

They are engineered to be used while the train is in motion, just like the ones on cruise ships are, although the ones on the ships are more like standard building elevators.