July Changes to Lake Shore and Capitol Limited Dining

[Devil's Advocate]

So this "legacy service" basically just means a bunch of super expensive bedrooms with access to a PPC? Would this be its own train, or basically a super first class section of one of the full Starlight consists? I honestly don't get why they would need to offer an extra expensive service which includes access to a PPC, considering the Starlight seemed to be doing fine offering the PPC to standard sleeper passengers, and the ultimate issue was the PPC itself.

Wasn't such a "legacy service" tried and failed a couple of times? As in "American European Express", and more recently, the "Pullman Rail Journey's"?

It's been tried before but there is a lot working against it. For instance (1) the freight hosts have little reason or incentive to allow such traffic, (2) outside of Amtrak it's difficult to secure the necessary liability insurance, (3) most of the former passenger car maintenance infrastructure is gone, and (4) much of the technological know-how has long since retired or passed away. Then there's the matter of (5) having to slowly build a base of repeat customers at a loss from short term venture funding.

We also live in a marketplace that casually vacillates between irrational exuberance and economic destruction as the house of cards which underpins our economy periodically shudders and folds under the weight of rampant cronyism. The Savings & Loan crisis, the Internet Bubble, the Subprime Mortgage crisis, etc. Our anything goes Wild West style boom and bust economy will makes it extremely difficult for niche transportation services to remain viable during extended downturns.

 

[Palmetto]

If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.

If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!

Just put 1 PPC on a stsrlight set (have a 2nd for backup), and steal an all bedroom sleeper from the auto train, Gul from the Builder (he's already in Seattle) charge a high price for the "legacy service" and advertise it properly. Done deal.

Except that legacy service hasn't done too well when operated on a regular basis. In fact, it's failed. I recall the American Orient Express, Iowa Pacific Holdings, to name two. Tourist railroads? A different animal.

 

[nti1094]

hey did anyone else notice that the Capitol (I assume LSL too) now has toiletry amenity kits in the rooms? It’s been awhile since I saw one of those anywhere in Amtrak! I would still rather have hot meals prepared by a chef, but it’s at least something.

 

[nti1094]

hey did anyone else notice that the Capitol (I assume LSL too) now has toiletry amenity kits in the rooms? It’s been awhile since I saw one of those anywhere in Amtrak! I would still rather have hot meals prepared by a chef, but it’s at least something.

 

[Ryan]

If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.

If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!

Just put 1 PPC on a stsrlight set (have a 2nd for backup), and steal an all bedroom sleeper from the auto train, Gul from the Builder (he's already in Seattle) charge a high price for the "legacy service" and advertise it properly. Done deal.

Except that legacy service hasn't done too well when operated on a regular basis. In fact, it's failed. I recall the American Orient Express, Iowa Pacific Holdings, to name two. Tourist railroads? A different animal.

Indeed. Everyone likes to say they want nice things, but an insufficient number actually put $$$ behind it to make it a viable business model. Unfortunately, you can't run a business on hopes and dreams.

 

[PVD]

Yes but this business has seen a few that keep trying "hopes, dreams, and other peoples money" And on certain forums they worship him.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Both Iowa Pacific and American Orient Express had many reasons for not working, having an interested customer base wasn't one of them.

 

[jis]

Both Iowa Pacific and American Orient Express had many reasons for not working, having an interested customer base wasn't one of them.

I think the key word is "a large enough interested customer base willing to cover their cost plus a profit margin". It is not clear that such was available to either of those two. At least no one has produced any credible evidence that they did.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

AOE ran for 19 years... I don't think they were losing money that whole time... In fact it was during the recession in the 2000's that they ceased trips and then started up with the rebranded "Grande Luxe" - that rebranding didn't do so well for them. Still... It's not like it was an overnight failure. They also had crazy high expenses since they were chartering a full train.

Iowa Pacific / Pullman was a much more sustainable concept imho, but my understanding is from day one they wanted to be on a busier route and Amtrak wouldn't work with them. I don't think it was the Pullman company that was losing money.... The bad hoosier state is what really made them go under from what I can tell but I'm not claiming to be an expert.

 

[bretton88]

I would say the the transportation industry in general, there are only 2 models that have shown to work. The bare bones model, or the ultra high end model. The middle has shown to be a money losing venture. Since Amtrak probably can't go to the ultra high end, they're choosing the bare bones business model. Want trains with great food and a nice diner? Be ready to back up the Brinks Truck. Want affordable tickets? Boxed meals for you! I suspect the failures of the operations that provide high end service, like IP and AOE, only encourage Amtrak to follow the bare bones model.

 

[bretton88]

AOE ran for 19 years... I don't think they were losing money that whole time... In fact it was during the recession in the 2000's that they ceased trips and then started up with the rebranded "Grande Luxe" - that rebranding didn't do so well for them. Still... It's not like it was an overnight failure. They also had crazy high expenses since they were chartering a full train.

Iowa Pacific / Pullman was a much more sustainable concept imho, but my understanding is from day one they wanted to be on a busier route and Amtrak wouldn't work with them. I don't think it was the Pullman company that was losing money.... The bad hoosier state is what really made them go under from what I can tell but I'm not claiming to be an expert.

AOE was opened by Phillip Anschutz. For a long time he was willing to take losses on these operations. The original ski train was another one of his ventures. Eventually the losses became too much, even for him. The rise of liability insurance was one big pressure point.

Now as for Iowa Pacific, that was less sustainable than you think. They've left a long trail of unpaid vendors and tax liens. Look at the sad saga of the Saratoga RR.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I was talking specifically about the Pullman idea being sustainable... Not Iowa pacific as a whole.

Interesting about the AOE and ski train funding.. That I didn't know and is quite interesting.

Obviously the costs would be totally different if Amtrak operated it themselves. I doubt Amtrak could actually pull of the needed 1st class on board service because of union issues. If they could literally pick out the best employees the only thing it would cost them is the marketing, a gourmet order from Aramark, and the use of some cars they already own. Again I'm suggesting 1 train set. They can even make it seasonal.

I think one of the bigger issues is probably "government funding 1st class travel" image. Not that the customer base isn't there.

 

[cpotisch]

hey did anyone else notice that the Capitol (I assume LSL too) now has toiletry amenity kits in the rooms? It’s been awhile since I saw one of those anywhere in Amtrak! I would still rather have hot meals prepared by a chef, but it’s at least something.

That's part of the whole contemporary dining shtick. It seems like most crews haven't even been giving them out, though.

 

[jis]

I think one of the bigger issues is probably "government funding 1st class travel" image. Not that the customer base isn't there.

The first is definitely an issue. The second we actually have no way of knowing whether there is a base to sustain a regularly scheduled service and if so at what frequency, specially for overnight service. Clearly there is base for an occasional PV trip or two, and perhaps even a regularly scheduled car tacked onto a train for a short trip in a carefully selected market may exist.But the theory is yet to be conclusively validated.

 

[jis]

hey did anyone else notice that the Capitol (I assume LSL too) now has toiletry amenity kits in the rooms? It’s been awhile since I saw one of those anywhere in Amtrak! I would still rather have hot meals prepared by a chef, but it’s at least something.

That's part of the whole contemporary dining shtick. It seems like most crews haven't even been giving them out, though.

Where did you hear that most crews aren't giving them out? I got them each time I was on one of those two trains. Have you traveled in any of those trains recently?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

hey did anyone else notice that the Capitol (I assume LSL too) now has toiletry amenity kits in the rooms? It’s been awhile since I saw one of those anywhere in Amtrak! I would still rather have hot meals prepared by a chef, but it’s at least something.

That's part of the whole contemporary dining shtick. It seems like most crews haven't even been giving them out, though.

I find the idea of an amenity kit quite appealing. Having a functional backup of basic toiletries could be extremely helpful and practical. However, upon actual inspection they're usually populated with trial sized skin smearing products making dubious claims of questionable relevance.

 

[jis]

I found the shampoo and body wash thing pretty good, and of relevance to Sleeper passengers with access to a shower. It is better than the microscopic bar soap that was traditionally provided. But of course as Bob says YMMV.

 

[PVD]

I got them on my LSL BUF to CHI run, and on the CL on the way back CHI-WAS. The SCA had them in the room when I boarded. On the CL they were stored downstairs, so I guess if someone turned over a room enroute, it could be overlooked, but I now have 2 of them.....

 

[cpotisch]

The issue is that since they've been very inconsistent about actually providing those kits, you can't be sure that you'll actually get one, so you have to bring your toiletries anyway. If we knew for a fact that passengers were always being provided with the kits, that would be different, but the inconsistency makes it basically useless.

 

[cpotisch]

hey did anyone else notice that the Capitol (I assume LSL too) now has toiletry amenity kits in the rooms? It’s been awhile since I saw one of those anywhere in Amtrak! I would still rather have hot meals prepared by a chef, but it’s at least something.

That's part of the whole contemporary dining shtick. It seems like most crews haven't even been giving them out, though.

Where did you hear that most crews aren't giving them out? I got them each time I was on one of those two trains. Have you traveled in any of those trains recently?

I have not travelled on the CL or LSL since the change. I'm drawing this conclusion from what people who have ridden them are saying here. Some people have received the kits, but many have not.

 

[jis]

The issue is that since they've been very inconsistent about actually providing those kits, you can't be sure that you'll actually get one, so you have to bring your toiletries anyway. If we knew for a fact that passengers were always being provided with the kits, that would be different, but the inconsistency makes it basically useless.

Where did you hear about the so called inconsistency. I'd still like to know. I am not saying that they are not. All I am looking for is concrete evidence. If it is hearsay, that is fine too. But just curious about the basis.

 

[PVD]

I may have missed it, but I don't recall anyone not getting one. Very little we see here is concrete, since it tends to be hearsay, but I don't remember much of that. either....

 

[cpotisch]

As long as they arent scrapped theres hope, talking about the PPCs. They were already mothballed once after the SSLs were fully delivered. Hopefully the next CEO is more visionary ala Brian Rosenwald.

More likely would be conversion of a few SSLs to a half sleeper class lounge, half sleeper class dining area which is what the PPC was. So close to what Anderson has done on the two trains already. They just need to polish the product and people would be thrilled. Unfortunately hes not going to.

As great as that would be, it is financially not feasible. These great cars were built in the 1950s, and only 6 were made. Therefore, what few replacement parts there were are long gone and anything has to literally be fabricated in the shop. Just look at how complex the glass alone is.

Exactly, just because they still exist doesn't mean that it's feasible for Amtrak to put a bunch of 60 year old cars with no spare parts available back into service. It just doesn't make sense to run those cars anymore.

 

[cpotisch]

Where did you hear about the so called inconsistency. I'd still like to know. I am not saying that they are not. All I am looking for is concrete evidence. If it is hearsay, that is fine too. But just curious about the basis.

From my post directly above yours:

I have not travelled on the CL or LSL since the change. I'm drawing this conclusion from what people who have ridden them are saying here. Some people have received the kits, but many have not.

 

[jis]

Where did you hear about the so called inconsistency. I'd still like to know. I am not saying that they are not. All I am looking for is concrete evidence. If it is hearsay, that is fine too. But just curious about the basis.

From my post directly above yours:

I have not travelled on the CL or LSL since the change. I'm drawing this conclusion from what people who have ridden them are saying here. Some people have received the kits, but many have not.

Any pointers to such messages here? Thanks. I must have just missed them. That is why I am curious.