JetBlue Captain 'Loses It'

[The Davy Crockett]

OBS on Amtrak may be frustrating at times, but here is another reason to take the train:

(CBS/AP) A police officer and an off-duty airline pilot subdued a JetBlue captain Tuesday morning aboard a Las Vegas-bound flight when the captain started pounding on the cockpit door after the flight's co-pilot asked him to leave and subsequently locked him out, a federal official told CBS News.

The captain became incoherent during JetBlue Flight 191 from New York's John F. Kennedy International, prompting the co-pilot to get him to leave the cockpit, the official said. JetBlue said in a statement to CBS News that the flight was diverted to Amarillo, Texas, "for a medical situation involving the captain."

Link to story.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

"They're going to take us down. They're taking us down. They're going to take us down. Say the Lord's prayer. Say the Lord's prayer," the captain screamed, according to Antolino. Josh Redick, a passenger sitting near the middle of the plane, said the captain seemed "irate" and was "spouting off about Afghanistan and souls and al Qaeda."

Yikes! What a stressful flight for the passengers and staff. Glad the co-pilot first officer was able to get him out of the cockpit and safely land the plane. It's no good to have a nutcase on the flight deck. Sounds like the captain had a panic attack caused by an overdose of AM radio. hboy:

 

[trainfan969]

Who knows, maybe the pilot was stressed out or having a mental breakdown. Still that's probably an harrowing experience for the passengers.

 

[railiner]

Good thing that quickthinking F/O was able to get the deranged Captain to leave the cockpit. The story could have had a very bad ending, otherwise.

This type of situation is extremely rare in this day and age of very highly qualified and examined flight deck crews, who undertake some of the most extensive scrutiny of any profession. But the fact that this did indeed happen, will cause the FAA and the airlines to go back and try to figure out what if any tell-tales could have given a hint of something like this happening, and changes made in policies and procedures to insure the unlikelyhood of it occuring again.

It is also a good thing that the airlines now have reinforced cockpit doors to secure the flight deck.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Keep in mind that some pilots are allowed to bring loaded firearms aboard planes as part of the Transportation Security Administration's Federal Flight Deck Officer program. Now, don't you feel safer already? Just imagine if this guy was armed and loaded when he flew off the deep end. I wonder which part(s) of the system failed in order to allow this man onto flight deck in the first place, or if we'll ever find out before the story fades into oblivion.

 

[jis]

Keep in mind that some pilots are allowed to bring loaded firearms aboard planes as part of the Transportation Security Administration's Federal Flight Deck Officer program. Now, don't you feel safer already? Just imagine if this guy was armed and loaded when he flew off the deep end. I wonder which part(s) of the system failed in order to allow this man onto flight deck in the first place, or if we'll ever find out before the story fades into oblivion.

To quote someone here "FOIA is your friend"

 

[Trogdor]

This would be even scarier than the AA flight attendant that had a similar incident a couple weeks ago. At least that plane was still on the ground when it happened.

In other news, I hear JetBlue has a job opening for one pilot.

 

[George Harris]

Keep in mind that some pilots are allowed to bring loaded firearms aboard planes as part of the Transportation Security Administration's Federal Flight Deck Officer program. Now, don't you feel safer already? Just imagine if this guy was armed and loaded when he flew off the deep end. I wonder which part(s) of the system failed in order to allow this man onto flight deck in the first place, or if we'll ever find out before the story fades into oblivion.

Actually, I would feel safer knowing that pilots are armed. This has to be taken as what: an abberation. You can't protect yourself from everything all the time or anticipate everything that might happen, and anyone who thinks it can be done need to be smacked upside the head with reality. Already dealing with safety issues, you are looking at the 0.001% possibilities. Safety requirements have gotten to the point of being equivalent to having a dentist on standby in case one of the teeth in your chicken gets a cavity.

 

[Ryan]

What exactly does having an armed pilot behind a locked security door defend against?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

This has to be taken as what: an abberation.

From what I understand we have about as many examples of pilots experiencing mental breakdowns as we have of terrorists bringing loaded guns aboard US commercial aircraft. The key factor in my view is that a loaded firearm can turn a mere "aberration" into a true disaster without much effort. Consider another JetBlue pilot who lost his government-issued handgun after a family with kids mistakenly picked up the pilot's backpack with a loaded firearm along with their own luggage on Thursday, January 13, 2011 at Kennedy airport in New York. If I discovered my family was inadvertently in possession of a misplaced firearm or saw an armed pilot screaming about bombs and prayers while trying to force his way onto the flight deck I would not feel very safe at all. But maybe that's just me?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Update: Looks like the JetBlue Airways captain is Clayton Osbon and while he has not yet been fired he has been charged with a crime ("interfering with a flight crew," oddly enough) and is still being held for psychiatric review.

Federal prosecutors have charged Osbon following his bizarre unraveling aboard Flight 191 to Las Vegas, describing in court records a midair breakdown they say began with cockpit ramblings about religion and ended with passengers wrestling him to the cabin floor. "The (first officer) became really worried when Osbon said `we need to take a leap of faith,'" according to the sworn affidavit given by an FBI agent John Whitworth. "Osbon started trying to correlate completely unrelated numbers like different radio frequencies, and he talked about sins in Las Vegas." Investigators said they were told that Osbon scolded air traffic controllers to quiet down, then turned off the radios altogether, and dimmed the monitors in the cockpit. He allegedly said aloud that "things just don't matter" and encouraged his co-pilot that they take a leap of faith. "We're not going to Vegas," Osbon told his co-pilot in midflight, according to the affidavit.

Yikes. That sounds eerily similar to some truly horrific events of the past. Thank goodness this man wasn't able to get back into the cockpit and potentially cause an all-out disaster.

Link to full story...

 

[jis]

Yikes. That sounds eerily similar to some truly horrific events of the past. Thank goodness this man wasn't able to get back into the cockpit and potentially cause an all-out disaster.

Link to full story...

Remember the Egypt Air crash just out of New York sometime back, in which case AFAIR the American investigation found that the pilot unraveled and crashed the plane while the Egyptians insisted otherwise?

Then again there was an Amtrak Engineer who insisted on driving a Metroliner at 100+ through the Elizabeth curve almost derailing the train in the middle of town, resulting in the approach medium that everyone now faces to force them down to 45mph, 10mph lower than what the speed limit used to be. People sometimes do really bizarre things.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I never have ridden on a Plane with him,(but have on Several Trains!) but one of our members is an Airline Pilot, his perspective on this would be interesting!

If the NRA and the Gun Nuts had their way, wonder if we would have had a "Shootout at the OK Corral"! Good reminder that "Civilians" packing heat in Public Places is a Crazy Idea!!! :wacko:

 

[leemell]

I never have ridden on a Plane with him,(but have on Several Trains!) but one of our members is an Airline Pilot, his perspective on this would be interesting!

If the NRA and the Gun Nuts had their way, wonder if we would have had a "Shootout at the OK Corral"! Good reminder that "Civilians" packing heat in Public Places is a Crazy Idea!!! :wacko:

Sorry, these pilots are now federal officers and have trained at the Federal Air Marshall Service and are sworn.. They must retrain at required intervals. All of this is done on their on time (training is one full week at their academy) and at their own expense.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I never have ridden on a Plane with him,(but have on Several Trains!) but one of our members is an Airline Pilot, his perspective on this would be interesting! If the NRA and the Gun Nuts had their way, wonder if we would have had a "Shootout at the OK Corral"! Good reminder that "Civilians" packing heat in Public Places is a Crazy Idea!!! :wacko:

Sorry, these pilots are now federal officers and have trained at the Federal Air Marshall Service and are sworn.. They must retrain at required intervals. All of this is done on their on time (training is one full week at their academy) and at their own expense.

What exactly does this entail? For instance, does this process include a routine psychological evaluation? What sort of warning signs does it look for and how are they handled?

 

[leemell]

I never have ridden on a Plane with him,(but have on Several Trains!) but one of our members is an Airline Pilot, his perspective on this would be interesting! If the NRA and the Gun Nuts had their way, wonder if we would have had a "Shootout at the OK Corral"! Good reminder that "Civilians" packing heat in Public Places is a Crazy Idea!!! :wacko:

Sorry, these pilots are now federal officers and have trained at the Federal Air Marshall Service and are sworn.. They must retrain at required intervals. All of this is done on their on time (training is one full week at their academy) and at their own expense.

What exactly does this entail? For instance, does this process include a routine psychological evaluation? What sort of warning signs does it look for and how are they handled?

From the Federal Air Marshall site:

To be selected for Federal Flight Deck Officer (FFDO) training by TSA you must:

• Successfully complete all selection assessments including any specified psychological, medical or physical ability requirements.
• Be determined to meet all established standards by the Federal Air Marshal Service.
• Be available to attend the FFDO training program in its entirety on your own time and at your own expense within one year from your acceptance in the program (the cost of the training and equipment are covered by TSA and the Federal Air Marshal Service; volunteers are responsible for their own travel, lodging, and daily expenses).

Recurrent training is conducted bi-annually. No more information is given.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Im aware of the Training Requirements/Rules etc., but all the training in the World doesnt prevent stuff like this from happening!! My concern is what happens when the Pilots sharing the Cockpit, like in this instance,are both armed, will there be a Shootout in the Cockpit or if the instance happens in the Cabin will Sky Marshalls (if aboard)draw down on one of these "trained" Pilots when it happens again???

Of course the ultimate Fantasy of some Gun Nuts is to be packing and when something crzay like this goes down, they can play John Wayne and be recognized as a Hero!! :wacko: Thank Goodness Passengers arent allowed to carry guns on Planes and Trains, it's bad enough out on the Roads!!(Where I live about 50% of all Drivers are thought to have Firearms in their Vehicles, hence the saying "It's a Jungle out there!" :help: !!)

 

[Jean]

Well, he was right about one thing, they didn't go to Vegas! He was subdued effectively without weapons. Seriously, speaking as an Australian, where firearms in public hands are uncommon, I agree so much with Jim Hudson. As for flying in the US, I always fly there/back with Qantas, then try to avoid local airlines if at all possible. Sometimes we can fly with the airline of another country, or take the train. I am a nervous flyer at the best of times, but if I knew pilots were carrying guns, it would make it so much worse. In Britain, even police do not carry guns in normal circumstances and yet we don't hear of the tragic events that are so common in the US.

Jean

 

[jis]

Just as a reference you can see an extended discussion of this subject on airliners.net.

 

[saxman]

Armed pilots are to protect the flight deck only, and nothing more. If he was armed, would he be crazy enough to use the weapon on the flight deck? Who knows? The first officer did the right thing by having him go to the back then locking him out. I can't even imagine what would the warning signs for me to ask him to do that. The worst I've had is a captain get mad at me for stomping on the brakes while taxiing or missing a radio call.

Plus even if the captain was armed, and out of the cockpit, he wouldn't have been able to do much of anything either.

 

[Ryan]

Thanks for your perspective. If the pilot is behind a locked door, what is the weapon supposed to protect against?

If the Captain was armed and locked out of the flight deck, he could start shooting passengers.

What would a half dozen 9mm holes in the fuselage do?

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Thanks for your perspective. If the pilot is behind a locked door, what is the weapon supposed to protect against?

If the Captain was armed and locked out of the flight deck, he could start shooting passengers.

What would a half dozen 9mm holes in the fuselage do?

At the very least, if he was armed, subduing him would have been just a tad more 'interesting.'

 

[jis]

Thanks for your perspective. If the pilot is behind a locked door, what is the weapon supposed to protect against?

If the Captain was armed and locked out of the flight deck, he could start shooting passengers.

What would a half dozen 9mm holes in the fuselage do?

Same thing that half a dozen 9mm holes from an air marshal's firearm would do.

At the very least, if he was armed, subduing him would have been just a tad more 'interesting.'

Indeed! But this discussion is a bit of worrying about the horse after it has bolted twice.

We all know that some proportion of flights carry armed air marshals. Ostensibly the evaluation and training that they go through is similar to what pilots go through as far as mental evaluation and handling of firearms is concerned. So why is it a bigger worry if one additional person is carrying firearm on the plane? If carrying firearm by anyone on the plane is a problem, we are already way past that point for quite a while.

 

[Ryan]

What would a half dozen 9mm holes in the fuselage do?

Same thing that half a dozen 9mm holes from an air marshal's firearm would do.

100% correct, but I was genuinely curious what impact they would have. I would assume that the cabin would depressurize, but slowly enough for folks to don their masks. I'd be interested in having that assumption validated or corrected.

At the very least, if he was armed, subduing him would have been just a tad more 'interesting.'

Indeed! But this discussion is a bit of worrying about the horse after it has bolted twice.

We all know that some proportion of flights carry armed air marshals. Ostensibly the evaluation and training that they go through is similar to what pilots go through as far as mental evaluation and handling of firearms is concerned. So why is it a bigger worry if one additional person is carrying firearm on the plane? If carrying firearm by anyone on the plane is a problem, we are already way past that point for quite a while.

I'm not sure I agree. The purpose of an air marshall is to deal with an unruly passenger. Saxman's statement above was that the armed pilot was "to protect the flight deck, nothing more". If we already have a secured door to do that, there doesn't seem to be much of a need for that firearm. Having an armed pilot seems to be a risk with no commensurate reward (unless I'm missing something).

It goes back to the (yet unanswered) question that I posed to George back in post #9:

What exactly does having an armed pilot behind a locked security door defend against?

 

[jis]

I was not questioning or answering your original question. I was just commenting on the effect of an armed pilot or an armed marshal shooting passengers in the cabin after they have gone over the edge. The effect is about the same. That was my point.

Of course the other pint I was making is that a firearm on board is a firearm on board, specially when we are talking about how it might be used when someone holding it goes crazy.

Of course in the cockpit an armed pilot who has gone berserk has the additional opportunity of getting rid of the others in the cockpit first too. But then again, I am sure they can achieve that without a firearm too, though with a bit of greater difficulty. Again, not taking any position regarding firearm in cockpit, just pointing out the obvious possibilities.

The biggest observed danger from pilots so far has been suicide missions after going over the top. There are two such incidents that are strongly suspected to be voluntary controlled flight into terrain of a commercial flight that are documented so far in the last decade or so.