Increasing Service Between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh?

[jis]

This study shows a spur between State College and Tyrone.

http://planthekeystone.com/PDF/Keystone_West-Feasibility_Report_&_SDP_August2014.pdf

I know. That is what I described the details of in response to Seaboard.

 

[neroden]

Lewistown is between Harrisburg and State College (right along US 322).

Yes, but a new ROW between Lewistown and State College is non-trivial new construction. There is a very good reason why PRR followed the Juniata River to Tyrone.
Can it be done? Of course. Given enough money anything can be done. Will the money be found? That is upto Pennsylvania.

It looks like it would require a 5-7 mile long tunnel under the Seven Mountains. That would rival the Cascade Tunnel or the Moffat Tunnel.

If they're ever serious about "Pennsylvania High Speed Rail", this is the way to go. The route from State College to Altoona is pretty straight, so they could have a *fast* route from Harrisburg to Altoona at least.

 

[jis]

It is not like Harrisburg to Lewistown is amazingly fast either. It will take a lot of work to get it to be fast too. Likewise from State College to Altoona. It will be a seriously expensive exercise. And if they are going to take the trouble to do a 7 mile tunnel to State College, presumably at a nice underground station Jerusalem style, for the sake of speed, then they might as well bite the bullet and do a nice long tunnel under the Alleghenies from Altoona to somewhere near Johnstwon.

 

[MARC Rider]

It is not like Harrisburg to Lewistown is amazingly fast either. It will take a lot of work to get it to be fast too. Likewise from State College to Altoona. It will be a seriously expensive exercise. And if they are going to take the trouble to do a 7 mile tunnel to State College, presumably at a nice underground station Jerusalem style, for the sake of speed, then they might as well bite the bullet and do a nice long tunnel under the Alleghenies from Altoona to somewhere near Johnstwon.

The 5 to 7 Mile tunnel would only be under the Seven Mountains. From the west portal it's another 10-15 miles to State College through the Nittany Valley. And you would need another tunnel under Bald Eagle Mountain to get to the valley in which Altoona is located. Oh, and the Bald Eagle Valley is about 500 ft lower in elevation than the Nittany Valley.

There was a reason why they never built a through rail line to State College, even in the golden days of railroading.

 

[neroden]

It is not like Harrisburg to Lewistown is amazingly fast either. It will take a lot of work to get it to be fast too.

Yeah, it's not great.

Likewise from State College to Altoona.

Actually, that route is remarkably good geometrically. Take a look at it. Waaaay better than Lewistown-Altoona, which is awful geometrically.
Given the way the monuntains run, any high-speed route going east from Pittsburgh would require massive amounts of tunneling west of Altoona and east of Pittsburgh anyway. (Latrobe to Altoona on the current route is particularly unsuitable for high speed.) You might as well take advantage of the *one decently straight river valley* available, which runs from State College to Altoona.

My point is: if you're building a high-speed route, you can build lots of expensive tunnels between Altoona and Harrisburg via Huntingdon, or you can spend the same amount of money building expensive tunnels between State College and Harrisburg. It should be clear which is better. (You could get the "simplest" route by following I-81 to Chambersburg before cutting through all the mountains, but there are no population centers.)

If you're not building a high-speed route, you just stay where they already built the track, of course.

 

[neroden]

And if they are going to take the trouble to do a 7 mile tunnel to State College, presumably at a nice underground station Jerusalem style, for the sake of speed, then they might as well bite the bullet and do a nice long tunnel under the Alleghenies from Altoona to somewhere near Johnstwon.

Yep, you'd need to. And another set of tunnels from Johnstown to Greensburg. Unless you bypassed Johnstown entirely.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

If half-century old past performance matters, State College's stub end made for unpopular passenger service and football traffic never materialized either.

Well, the football traffic would be about 7 home games each year. That's much better suited to excursion-type service. You'd think someone would put together a train-to-game charter package from Philly and Pittsburgh, but that's a different discussion.

MegaBus offers a fairly aggressive schedule out of State College with frequent service to Harrisburg, Philly, Pittsburgh, New York and beyond. While it would be nice if there was train service to State College, it would seem as though the barriers are fairly high, with viable alternatives in place for the target demographic of college students. [Don't forget there's commercial air service to several hubs, too, for people that don't want to ride the bus.]

If PA really thought there was demand, there would be Thruway service from State College to Harrisburg connecting to Keystone trains. I'm guessing they've done the math and decided the demand just isn't there, despite the high on-campus population.

Back in the ancient times, they only ran a handful of excursions, ever. Read the book Rails to Penn State. Its actually a pretty good book about the life of a short line and its battles with the mighty PRR.

State College just ended up being too far north. Topography dictated that the only east-west rail line in the area was the old Lewisburg & Tyrone, but it never made the south kick that would have helped connect State College to the major trunk line. It ran, more or less, where Route 192 is now.

 

[Nickrapak]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe a line to State College would need a new line built from scratch.

Yes from Harrisburg. From Altoona, there is an active, though not upto snuff for passenger usage, railroad to Lemont, adjacent to the State College campus, which could probably be revamped for a reasonable bill.It is a branch off of the Altoona/Tyrone to Lock Haven ex-PRR now NS line which is still active. The branch is a short line from Milesburg to Lemont via Bellefonte.

I know, I usually get shot down for daring to make such a suggestion, but I don't see anything wrong with initially using a freight rail line. This is a low cost startup, and would allow an actual "experiment" to test the viability of the service. It could be that the new passenger service is sold-out/packed on ten days a year (the days Penn State goes in and out of session), and virtually empty the other 355 days. Or not. That's the "experiment". If the "experiment" fails, the passenger service ends, and the rail line returns back to being used only for freight. No harm. No foul. If the "experiment" succeeds, then money could be sought, to upgrade the rail line to passenger service levels.

The biggest problem with any train from Tyrone to the State College area would be the line from Milesburg to Pleasant Gap. The line from Tyrone to Milesburg is actually one of the straightest, flattest pieces of track west of Harrisburg. Currently it's Class 3, but I'm sure you could get it to Class 4 with little effort. The line from Milesburg to Pleasant Gap (about 4 mi from Lemont) is a slow, winding line paralleling the Logan Branch creek. It's technically classified for 10mph operation, but you're lucky if you're going that fast. Because of the narrow gap the line runs through, it would probably cost a ridiculous amount of money to straighten the line to give you anything faster than 15mph. It's great for scenic rides, but in an age where you can get from Tyrone to State College in half an hour on I-99, a 1.5 hr train ride would not be appealing to the general public.

 

[JoeBas]

Editorial from Tribune Democrat of Johnstown, PA

"The goal eventually is to connect the Pittsburgh-Harrisburg line with State College and Penn State to allow students and university visitors – including football fans – to get to that area directly by train, not an option currently."

We should definitely start a daily train for 6 Saturdays and 8 or so other days a year. Totally.

 

[Eric S]

If PA really thought there was demand, there would be Thruway service from State College to Harrisburg connecting to Keystone trains. I'm guessing they've done the math and decided the demand just isn't there, despite the high on-campus population.

I wonder about that. I don't recall any studies recently at least about Thruway services in Pennsylvania (to State College or elsewhere). Given the success of such services in California, I tend to think that similar relatively-extensive networks would work out well around other corridor services including the Keystone. Maybe California is unique and such services would not be successful elsewhere but I tend to doubt that.

(Of course, me not remembering a study doesn't mean that such a study doesn't exist.)

 

[Seaboard92]

I think PA would work for that. And it's also a great way to look into adding additional train service. I believe the Roanoke to Lynchburg bus for example has somewhere around fifty people a day going one way. So Amtrak thought they could extend the line and make money on it. Which makes sense as some people from Roanoke will drive to Lynchburg for the train as well.

 

[jis]

Pennsylvania's entire plan consists of coming up with impossible to fund projects and then keep studying them until the cows come home, and meanwhile do nothing about anything beyond relatively inexpensive upgrades to existing stuff. An implication of this approach is, do not expect any expansion in the form of significant new routes. An added frequency here, five minutes saved there and such is all we can expect.

 

[fairviewroad]

If PA really thought there was demand, there would be Thruway service from State College to Harrisburg connecting to Keystone trains. I'm guessing they've done the math and decided the demand just isn't there, despite the high on-campus population.

I wonder about that. I don't recall any studies recently at least about Thruway services in Pennsylvania (to State College or elsewhere). Given the success of such services in California, I tend to think that similar relatively-extensive networks would work out well around other corridor services including the Keystone. Maybe California is unique and such services would not be successful elsewhere but I tend to doubt that.

I think non-rail Thruway-style connections services have been slow to catch on in the Northeast because the major cities in the region are so well connected by rail. That said, Amtrak offers extensive Thruway bus connections in New Hampshire and Maine and to a lesser extent in Maryland.

In PA, the only Amtrak Thruway services offered are the relatively recent addition of Scranton to Philadelphia, 2x a day (plus an additional FrSu departure). I believe this is a case of an existing bus service being brought into the Amtrak ticketing system. The buses don't connect to specific trains in PHL but of course it's not hard to build a reasonable connection on your own there.

I don't know whether that Scranton Thruway connection was the result of a study or whether someone simply looked at a map, realized that a bus service was already in place, and had the realization that it would be relatively easy to simply incorporate the existing bus service into the Amtrak ticketing system. It wouldn't be that easy in State College, but certainly doable.

 

[Eric S]

Outside of California, most Thruway services are existing intercity bus services that offer through-ticketing but don't necessarily have schedules coordinated with Amtrak rail services. There are few dedicated Amtrak Thruway services (although to be fair a number have been added in recent years in NC and KS-OK, perhaps elsewhere) or regular intercity bus services with schedules that are specifically coordinated around Amtrak schedules in the rest of the country.

I tend to think that there are quite a few markets (such as State College) where Thruway services would quite possibly make sense, and not just in the Northeast but in the Midwest and elsewhere, markets that in California would have Thruway connections to intercity rail service. I just think it's a relatively inexpensive way of expanding the reach of the intercity rail network and increasing ridership that has in many cases been largely overlooked.

 

[fairviewroad]

Outside of California, most Thruway services are existing intercity bus services that offer through-ticketing but don't necessarily have schedules coordinated with Amtrak rail services. There are few dedicated Amtrak Thruway services (although to be fair a number have been added in recent years in NC and KS-OK, perhaps elsewhere) or regular intercity bus services with schedules that are specifically coordinated around Amtrak schedules in the rest of the country.

I tend to think that there are quite a few markets (such as State College) where Thruway services would quite possibly make sense, and not just in the Northeast but in the Midwest and elsewhere, markets that in California would have Thruway connections to intercity rail service. I just think it's a relatively inexpensive way of expanding the reach of the intercity rail network and increasing ridership that has in many cases been largely overlooked.

The Pacific Northwest is another area with dedicated Thruway buses, but unlike most other Thruway services across the country, most of these exist to supplement infrequent rail service along the northern and southern ends of the Cascades corridor.

Specifically between Portland and Eugene, and Seattle and Vancouver BC. The Thruway buses offer a few additional stops that the trains do not make, but otherwise do not deviate from the corridor's main route. In each case the bus is timed to meet with a connecting train. Unlike in California, the Oregon/Washington Thruway buses are bookable as a standalone trip (but are still "dedicated" in the sense that tickets are sold exclusively through Amtrak). It's a rather well-done service IMO.

 

[railiner]

IIRC, going back to the Penn Central era, perhaps even further to the PRR, the railroad sold Interline tickets from Lewistown to State College over Fullington Auto Bus. Of course, back then there were several trains serving Lewistown...

 

[peconicstation]

Philly.com has a good story about the existing train to and from Pittsburgh, including how slow it is, and the many road blocks adding more service faces.

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20160925_Amtrak_s_slow_ride_to_Pittsburgh.html

Ken

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Glad to see Philly.com/Inquirer giving some media attention in Philly to the topic. Maybe it's in anticipation for the big game between the Steelers and Eagles. But any media attention helps to raise awareness, especially in a larger market. And as of this morning there were 187 comments although a few were negative.

 

[dlagrua]

As for incorporating rail service to State College, PA; at one time the Bellefonte Central RR served that city. It may have been a connection to the former PRR at Tyrone, PA. Currently the tracks are used by the short line Nittany and Bald Eagle Railroad but I am unsure how passenger service once worked there. It looks like State College was on a spur line that met the PRR at Tyrone, PA. There are no tracks into the Penn State campus but the rail trail remains and the brick RR station is still in great shape. I believe about 1 mile of tracks would need to be put back to get rail service back to State College. Not that big a deal and the ridership might be enormous. Over 100,000 people reside in State College, PA with another 150,000 in the surrounding area. Great Rail market potential but a long shot for passenger service.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Over 100,000 people reside in State College, PA with another 150,000 in the surrounding area. Great Rail market potential but a long shot for passenger service.

Don't forget huge college town (Penn State). Why can't State College be the next Champaign/Urbana, Ann Arbor, or Charlottesville?

 

[MikefromCrete]

Over 100,000 people reside in State College, PA with another 150,000 in the surrounding area. Great Rail market potential but a long shot for passenger service.

Don't forget huge college town (Penn State). Why can't State College be the next Champaign/Urbana, Ann Arbor, or Charlottesville?

Because it's not on the main line and would cost hundreds of millions of dollars to get there.

 

[neroden]

Over 100,000 people reside in State College, PA with another 150,000 in the surrounding area. Great Rail market potential but a long shot for passenger service.

Don't forget huge college town (Penn State). Why can't State College be the next Champaign/Urbana, Ann Arbor, or Charlottesville?

Because it's not on the main line and would cost hundreds of millions of dollars to get there.

Whatever. It's gonna cost hundreds of millions of dollars to upgrade anything west of Harrisburg anyway, might as well do the job right, IMO

 

[dlagrua]

Over 100,000 people reside in State College, PA with another 150,000 in the surrounding area. Great Rail market potential but a long shot for passenger service.

Don't forget huge college town (Penn State). Why can't State College be the next Champaign/Urbana, Ann Arbor, or Charlottesville?

Because it's not on the main line and would cost hundreds of millions of dollars to get there.

Entirely true but even back in the 1940's when State College had regular passenger service, the RR station was on a spur line that connected with the PRR at Tyrone. Most of the tracks are still there and are being used for freight to this day..

 

[jis]

The problem though is that specially coming from the east the train will be so much slower than the bus that it will be labeled a boondoggle even before it starts running. We hardly need such distraction just to be able to say that there is train service to State College, which due to its slowness will most likely underperform spectacularly.

 

[fairviewroad]

Philly.com has a good story about the existing train to and from Pittsburgh, including how slow it is, and the many road blocks adding more service faces.

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20160925_Amtrak_s_slow_ride_to_Pittsburgh.html

Ken

It was a good article, and fairly portrayed the trade-off for taking the train: It's much slower but far more comfortable than other options. For some people, that's good enough.

One key detail left out of the article is that Pittsburgh, as we on AU know well, is served by another train....the Capitol Limited, which provides daily service to Washington and Chicago. So PGH does have access to the east coast....obviously the access is better if one is heading to Washington instead of New York. But the article and the rail advocate made it sound like the Pennsylvanian was the only game in town. And unlike Philadelphia, in Pittsburgh you can catch a daily train to Chicago, one that gets you there reasonably fast, too. So in terms of access to the midwest, Pitt definitely has the edge over Philly.