I wonder how Amtrak sells anything on their web site

[John Bobinyec]

Am I understanding this issue correctly in that if only one roomette is available in the current fare bucket, and one wants to purchase more than one roomette, the price for the higher bucket is charged for both? Or is something more complex going on here?

I ask because when I was in the airline industry, this was how our reservation system worked. If one was purchasing seats and enough weren't available in the lowest fare class, all seats would be sold at the next highest fare class. The only way around this was making multiple reservations.

Is that an acceptable workaround for this issue, also? Simply purchasing two roomettes separately? Or have I just totally misunderstood the nature of the problem?

I think the problem is if you try to book a roomette with one person you get price X. If you try to book a roomette with 2 people, you get price 2X, at least.

jb

 

[SarahZ]

Am I understanding this issue correctly in that if only one roomette is available in the current fare bucket, and one wants to purchase more than one roomette, the price for the higher bucket is charged for both? Or is something more complex going on here?

I ask because when I was in the airline industry, this was how our reservation system worked. If one was purchasing seats and enough weren't available in the lowest fare class, all seats would be sold at the next highest fare class. The only way around this was making multiple reservations.

Is that an acceptable workaround for this issue, also? Simply purchasing two roomettes separately? Or have I just totally misunderstood the nature of the problem?

No, what's happening is that a roomette can hold two people for the same cost (you pay two rail fares but only one roomette fee). So, if the rail fare is $100 and the roomette is $200, it would be $300 for just me and $400 for me and my boyfriend.

What's happening, though, is that I put in just myself and get the $300 charge, but then I put in my boyfriend and it gives me something like $500 or $600.

Since the rooms are always given the low-bucket rail fare, the number of passengers in that room should not change the base rail fare. It isn't adding up.

 

[leemell]

"Refuses to fix" requires them to have the ability to fix the problem, but choose not to do so: what evidence do you have that they have the ability to fix the problem, now or for some time already?

I'm a computer programmer. They have the ability to fix the problem. Period. It could be fixed within a week. I guarantee it. *I* could fix it within a week if I were hired as a consultant, and I've never seen their code. (My rate is $100/hr plus travel expenses, of course. )
I suspect that the problem has never been reported to the correct department.

Rather bold claims, on little or no information.... plonk...

[oh, btw: wrote my first for hire piece of code in Oct'69, have written 2m+ lines since - compilers, spaceflight packages, ballistics, server-side monsters etc - so, please... ]

No pi$$ing contest here please. I wrote my first code professionally in 1965. Been through all the phases from requirements writing to customer delivery and operation, from coder to system engineer to project manager. I tend to agree with Nathaniel,

 

[me_little_me]

"Refuses to fix" requires them to have the ability to fix the problem, but choose not to do so: what evidence do you have that they have the ability to fix the problem, now or for some time already?

I'm a computer programmer. They have the ability to fix the problem. Period. It could be fixed within a week. I guarantee it. *I* could fix it within a week if I were hired as a consultant, and I've never seen their code. (My rate is $100/hr plus travel expenses, of course. )
I suspect that the problem has never been reported to the correct department.

I wouldn't bet on the length of time. With a stupid problem like that, it could require that the garbage code be thrown out and they hire a competent company to start from ground zero and build a properly working pricing system. But I do agree with you that it is fixable.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Having worked in IT for over a decade my guess is that the issue is known, the solution is understood, and the resolution is taking forever due to a combination of factors involving resource allocation, regression testing, release scheduling, and various other bureaucratic constraints and considerations. Correcting the code itself may only require a couple days of effort, but testing and migrating the corrected code could easily take weeks or months at a large company. If your release schedule is quarterly and the resolution is tested and signed off just one day late then you're waiting until the next quarter to resolve the problem.

 

[Nathanael]

Devil's Advocate: you might be right, but if so this indicates a bad misprioritization. This is a situation which is generating distrust towards Amtrak and its website -- it has long-term negative consequences to the business.

And it's been going on for nearly a quarter already now, hasn't it? Executive involvement should have arranged for it to be a special focus with its own release schedule.

It's possible that the team which was supposed to fix it was instead implementing the "value", "flexible", etc. fares, but that indicates nasty misprioritization.

I really would bet on the issue not having made it to the right people. Perhaps that's just due to my repeated experience with impenetrable bureaucracies where the hardest part is finding the right person to talk to....

 

[Guest]

...recall that Amtrak is the company where we have to tell people to ask for "Customer RELATIONS, not customer service" in order to get problems resolved. Recall that in Amtrak Ink, the management has been complaining about "silo mentality" in different Amtrak divisions and has been making a special effort to break that up by reorganization.

How likely do you think it is that one department doesn't know what the other department knows? I think it's *very* likely. The people who write the website code may not even know how Amtrak's pricing for sleepers works.

 

[gmushial]

"Refuses to fix" requires them to have the ability to fix the problem, but choose not to do so: what evidence do you have that they have the ability to fix the problem, now or for some time already?

I'm a computer programmer. They have the ability to fix the problem. Period. It could be fixed within a week. I guarantee it. *I* could fix it within a week if I were hired as a consultant, and I've never seen their code. (My rate is $100/hr plus travel expenses, of course. )
I suspect that the problem has never been reported to the correct department.

Rather bold claims, on little or no information.... plonk...

[oh, btw: wrote my first for hire piece of code in Oct'69, have written 2m+ lines since - compilers, spaceflight packages, ballistics, server-side monsters etc - so, please... ]

No pi$$ing contest here please. I wrote my first code professionally in 1965. Been through all the phases from requirements writing to customer delivery and operation, from coder to system engineer to project manager. I tend to agree with Nathaniel,

1401? 7094, awaiting S/360 delivery? Early install S/360-40 or 65? Early 6600 install? Or...

 

[gmushial]

...recall that Amtrak is the company where we have to tell people to ask for "Customer RELATIONS, not customer service" in order to get problems resolved. Recall that in Amtrak Ink, the management has been complaining about "silo mentality" in different Amtrak divisions and has been making a special effort to break that up by reorganization.

How likely do you think it is that one department doesn't know what the other department knows? I think it's *very* likely. The people who write the website code may not even know how Amtrak's pricing for sleepers works.

When one brings in outsiders, and doesn't provide a complete spec: painfully likely. Though would note: that I believe this function worked correctly before the latest website incarnation, ie, back-end might be working correctly, but mid-layer might not.

 

[leemell]

"Refuses to fix" requires them to have the ability to fix the problem, but choose not to do so: what evidence do you have that they have the ability to fix the problem, now or for some time already?

I'm a computer programmer. They have the ability to fix the problem. Period. It could be fixed within a week. I guarantee it. *I* could fix it within a week if I were hired as a consultant, and I've never seen their code. (My rate is $100/hr plus travel expenses, of course. )
I suspect that the problem has never been reported to the correct department.

Rather bold claims, on little or no information.... plonk...

[oh, btw: wrote my first for hire piece of code in Oct'69, have written 2m+ lines since - compilers, spaceflight packages, ballistics, server-side monsters etc - so, please... ]

No pi$$ing contest here please. I wrote my first code professionally in 1965. Been through all the phases from requirements writing to customer delivery and operation, from coder to system engineer to project manager. I tend to agree with Nathaniel,

1401? 7094, awaiting S/360 delivery? Early install S/360-40 or 65? Early 6600 install? Or...

NCR 315, IBM 1401, NCR Century, CDC 6600.

 

[gmushial]

"Refuses to fix" requires them to have the ability to fix the problem, but choose not to do so: what evidence do you have that they have the ability to fix the problem, now or for some time already?

I'm a computer programmer. They have the ability to fix the problem. Period. It could be fixed within a week. I guarantee it. *I* could fix it within a week if I were hired as a consultant, and I've never seen their code. (My rate is $100/hr plus travel expenses, of course. )
I suspect that the problem has never been reported to the correct department.

Rather bold claims, on little or no information.... plonk...

[oh, btw: wrote my first for hire piece of code in Oct'69, have written 2m+ lines since - compilers, spaceflight packages, ballistics, server-side monsters etc - so, please... ]

No pi$$ing contest here please. I wrote my first code professionally in 1965. Been through all the phases from requirements writing to customer delivery and operation, from coder to system engineer to project manager. I tend to agree with Nathaniel,

1401? 7094, awaiting S/360 delivery? Early install S/360-40 or 65? Early 6600 install? Or...

NCR 315, IBM 1401, NCR Century, CDC 6600.

The era of: IBM and the seven dwarfs ;-)

 

[tonys96]

This was in a previous thread. I got my ears pinned back for calling it a scam or price increase in that thread, and several of our members posted that Amtrak was well aware of this "code problem". (Which was called a glitch in the previous thread) Yet, it still exists......

So, IMHO, if Amtrak is aware of it and refuses to fix it (1), it is intentional, and therefore is a price increase on those who book via the website. If they were to put a notice on the site telling folks to call for correct pricing (2), then it would seem more like an unintentional "glitch" that they were trying to fix while not charging web pax more than phone pax.

Just my dos centavos.

(1) any evidence that they "refuse" to fix it - which is quiet different from a) it's on the to-do list, just not yet reached or b) haven't figured out how to fix it yet

(2) given that there are those in congress that are looking for any excuse to defund Amtrak - might be a case of "saving face" and just working in the background until it's "magically" fixed??... kind of like the groundhog that's learned that everytime it sticks its head it get shot at, so therefore doesn't stick its head up.

The evidence that Amtrak refuses to fix it is that they:

1. Are aware of it,

2. Have not fixed it,

3. Accept the extra fares,

4. Keep the extra fares, and

5. Have the capability to IMMEDIATELY put a notice to call for correct fare and yet have not done so.

"Refuses to fix" requires them to have the ability to fix the problem, but choose not to do so: what evidence do you have that they have the ability to fix the problem, now or for some time already? Putting up a warning that there is a problem does not fix the problem, merely points out its existence. Saying that they refuse to fix the problem is probably the most damning interpretation of the situation for which I don't see and I don't see you've presented the evidence thereof [while there are probably a half dozen other more likely and less damning interpretations.] Why the need to wax hyperbolic - generally this is a congenial forum where such is out of place?

Why the need to be hyperbolic? I am asking that question of you?

Nothing uncongenial about my statement at all, IMHO. The simple truth is that Amtrak is aware of the problem and has taken no VISIBLE steps to alleviate it. Behind the scenes steps to alleviate it, or no behind the scenes steps to alleviate it are pure speculation, either way.

Bottom line is that it SEEMS that Amtrak is taking in more fare revenue from online purchases of roomettes than it takes in from phone purchases without telling the consumers that it is doing so, and is aware of the fact that it is doing this. As long as this continues, it is a refusal to do otherwise.

Please, in the future, if you choose to disagree with my posts, disagree with the specific content, not with what you personally perceive to be the general tone. You may be misinterpreting or misconstruing the tone. Thank you in advance.

 

[tonys96]

Does anyone have proof that they have not refunded the $$ if someone did reserve on line? JUst curious.

Does anyone have proof that they HAVE refunded any money to those who bought online at the higher fare? Just curious.

 

[leemell]

"Refuses to fix" requires them to have the ability to fix the problem, but choose not to do so: what evidence do you have that they have the ability to fix the problem, now or for some time already?

I'm a computer programmer. They have the ability to fix the problem. Period. It could be fixed within a week. I guarantee it. *I* could fix it within a week if I were hired as a consultant, and I've never seen their code. (My rate is $100/hr plus travel expenses, of course. )
I suspect that the problem has never been reported to the correct department.

Rather bold claims, on little or no information.... plonk...

[oh, btw: wrote my first for hire piece of code in Oct'69, have written 2m+ lines since - compilers, spaceflight packages, ballistics, server-side monsters etc - so, please... ]

No pi$$ing contest here please. I wrote my first code professionally in 1965. Been through all the phases from requirements writing to customer delivery and operation, from coder to system engineer to project manager. I tend to agree with Nathaniel,

1401? 7094, awaiting S/360 delivery? Early install S/360-40 or 65? Early 6600 install? Or...

NCR 315, IBM 1401, NCR Century, CDC 6600.

The era of: IBM and the seven dwarfs ;-)

You had to be there to know that quote. ;-) :giggle:

 

[chakk]

Aaagh. Though suddently I have a horrible vision of the website design being subcontracted to a contractor who has already closed up shop and left town, leaving Amtrak with no source code. If that's the case.... then the problem may take longer.

(Never subcontract like that, kids!)

I hear that the govt contractor who was managing the Affordable Care Act website know has a lot of billable hours available ............

 

[gmushial]

Aaagh. Though suddently I have a horrible vision of the website design being subcontracted to a contractor who has already closed up shop and left town, leaving Amtrak with no source code. If that's the case.... then the problem may take longer.

(Never subcontract like that, kids!)

I hear that the govt contractor who was managing the Affordable Care Act website know has a lot of billable hours available ............

And given the wonderful job Mitre Corp did there ;-) ;-( ... keep them as far away from Amtrak as possible, please.

 

[gmushial]

"Refuses to fix" requires them to have the ability to fix the problem, but choose not to do so: what evidence do you have that they have the ability to fix the problem, now or for some time already?

I'm a computer programmer. They have the ability to fix the problem. Period. It could be fixed within a week. I guarantee it. *I* could fix it within a week if I were hired as a consultant, and I've never seen their code. (My rate is $100/hr plus travel expenses, of course. )
I suspect that the problem has never been reported to the correct department.

Rather bold claims, on little or no information.... plonk...

[oh, btw: wrote my first for hire piece of code in Oct'69, have written 2m+ lines since - compilers, spaceflight packages, ballistics, server-side monsters etc - so, please... ]

No pi$$ing contest here please. I wrote my first code professionally in 1965. Been through all the phases from requirements writing to customer delivery and operation, from coder to system engineer to project manager. I tend to agree with Nathaniel,

1401? 7094, awaiting S/360 delivery? Early install S/360-40 or 65? Early 6600 install? Or...

NCR 315, IBM 1401, NCR Century, CDC 6600.

The era of: IBM and the seven dwarfs ;-)

You had to be there to know that quote. ;-) :giggle:

I don't know how many times in that era Business Week used that description of the industry... but then: there were only six, then five, then four... and finally none. Though Amdahl tried for a while (v6, v7 etc); likewise FourPhase and Prime. ... cut my teeth on a 128k 360/40 running DOS v25; then a 67; finally back to a pair of 168's plus a 91 (SVS then MVS; and MVT v21.8)... then this little chip with 16 pins, intended to be a programmable controller for washing machines showed up: the i4004... and rest is history ... finding that the "web 2.0" has become rather passé, have gone back to one device, one user and working on paleontology and stratigraphy in the field mapping and documentation support, on GHz tablets, many-gigabyte SDcards and GPS heads. It's been an amazing time to watch and be part of the evolution of a technology.

 

[DivMiler]

... remember: UP's TCS (which runs their entire network) is 11m lines of IBM mainframe assembler code, ie, not all back ends are PHP...

I would remember if I knew what some of those TLAs were! I "IBM" means "International Business Machines", since we are talking about computers, and I assume "UP" means "Union Pacific" since we're talking about railroads, but I'm in the dark about the other two.

 

[John Bobinyec]

... remember: UP's TCS (which runs their entire network) is 11m lines of IBM mainframe assembler code, ie, not all back ends are PHP...

I would remember if I knew what some of those TLAs were! I "IBM" means "International Business Machines", since we are talking about computers, and I assume "UP" means "Union Pacific" since we're talking about railroads, but I'm in the dark about the other two.

TCS - a railroad term for Traffic Control System, which is the signal system controlling the railroad.

ie - an abbreviation for "that is"

PHP - a computer acronym for Personal Home Page, a computer language - Javascript, but running on the server.

jb

 

[gmushial]

... remember: UP's TCS (which runs their entire network) is 11m lines of IBM mainframe assembler code, ie, not all back ends are PHP...

I would remember if I knew what some of those TLAs were! I "IBM" means "International Business Machines", since we are talking about computers, and I assume "UP" means "Union Pacific" since we're talking about railroads, but I'm in the dark about the other two.

TCS is Union Pacific's Transportation Control System - 11 million lines of assembly language code which controls all their train / freight loads over their entire network plus supports dispatching of trains across their network; plus if I understand correctly, they also manage the same for a large number of other smaller RRs.

PHP as john said, started as a toy language to allow one to dynamically generate web pages from a web server, but has become more or less the standard server-side language for web page generation - it's an interpretive language, looks a bit like javascript, but has more or less replaced the compiled .exe's or .dll's which initially generated dynamic web pages. I believe this forum is implemented in PHP on the hosting server.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

My only experience with IBM was selling their Windows computers back in the 1990's and bringing in a consultant for some AS/400 audit work a couple years ago. Looks like the last time IBM updated their visual capabilities was during the switch from CGA to EGA. For a company associated with suits and ties their visual interface was just about the ugliest most generic thing I'd ever seen.

 

[me_little_me]

The era of: IBM and the seven dwarfs ;-)

You had to be there to know that quote. ;-) :giggle:

I retired from one of those dwarfs!

 

[leemell]

The era of: IBM and the seven dwarfs ;-)

You had to be there to know that quote. ;-) :giggle:

I retired from one of those dwarfs!

I worked for two.

 

[PaulM]

I wouldn't bet on the length of time. With a stupid problem like that, it could require that the garbage code be thrown out and they hire a competent company to start from ground zero and build a properly working pricing system. But I do agree with you that it is fixable.

Maybe Amtrak came to the same conclusion and that's why it is taking so long.

But why would anyone want to start from ground zero when it's a simple arithmetic formula that needs to be changed. From n(R + A) or what ever the bug is to nR+A, where n is the number of passengers, R the low bucket rail fare, and A the current accommodation charge.

 

[gmushial]

I wouldn't bet on the length of time. With a stupid problem like that, it could require that the garbage code be thrown out and they hire a competent company to start from ground zero and build a properly working pricing system. But I do agree with you that it is fixable.

Maybe Amtrak came to the same conclusion and that's why it is taking so long.

But why would anyone want to start from ground zero when it's a simple arithmetic formula that needs to be changed. From n(R + A) or what ever the bug is to nR+A, where n is the number of passengers, R the low bucket rail fare, and A the current accommodation charge.

Might it be somewhat more complex than that, ie, what if n is larger than the number of tickets that are available / they're willing to sell at low-bucket?