I discovered something...

[GP35]

As you all know, I'm not a happy camper when it comes to Amtrak killing my Sunset. So while

fuming and playing with numbers, I discovered something.

Using the current schedule, Amtrak could run the Sunset daily between NOL-LAX with 7 trainset.

However, If you move the NOL departure time back by 3 hours and LAX departure time forward by 2 hours, Sunset would need

only 6 trainsets. And plenty of time to do maintenance on NOL and LA. This would free up 1 trainset.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

amtrak is killing it so they don't have to restore it. thats why there killing it.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

amtrak is killing it so they don't have to restore it. thats why there killing it.

KISS, you make me look like an optimist sometimes. That's impressive.

 

[GP35]

I sometimes can't but think, ofcourse with the exception of north/south coast trains, Amtrak wants all trains

to go into the great Chicago Hub.

 

[Ryan]

Curse Amtrak for running the trains where people want to ride them! Any by "take away", you really mean to say "run daily", since that's really what's happening?

 

[GP35]

Curse Amtrak for running the trains where people want to ride them! Any by "take away", you really mean to say "run daily", since that's really what's happening?

Running a tri-weekly chronically late train at awful hours then concluding people must not want to ride the Sunset is insane. You

need to know your Amtrak history. The TE was ran tri-weekly, chronically late, on a bad schedule. Amtrak canceled that train

using the nobody wants to ride excuse. Canceled the train the sameway they plan to cancel Sunset. Must have been Amtrak great analysis.

Amtrak was forced to bring the train back, run the train daily, ontime, and a better schedule. Now Amtrak praises the train and want to kill another

train to make TE a better train. Wow, did the people magically became train rider lovers on the TE?

Now we see Amtrak doing the samething. Sunset would be more successful than the TE if it too was giving fair chance instead

of stacking the deck against the Sunset then blaming the people.

 

[VentureForth]

I just discovered that this is about the 4th active thread directly related to the Sunset Limited situation.

 

[Ryan]

SO your contention is that because Amtrak made a (possibly) bad decision once, then any other decision that they make is inherently flawed? And that you've got a pile of data to put up against their pile of data to prove that they are going down the wrong path on this one?

Somehow, I seriously doubt that. But, maybe (just maybe!) if you start enough threads complaining about it, that'll tip the scales in your favor. I'm sure the folks that ride the Hoosier State are just as upset as you are that they're not forced to only travel 3 days out of the week and long to go back to the days when there was no service at all on days that the Cardinal didn't run.

 

[Shawn]

I think it's funny that everyone gets in a big tizzy over something that hasn't even been released, and more than likely isn't going to happen.

 

[AlanB]

SO your contention is that because Amtrak made a (possibly) bad decision once, then any other decision that they make is inherently flawed? And that you've got a pile of data to put up against their pile of data to prove that they are going down the wrong path on this one?

Actually I'm not sure that Amtrak has a "pile of data" to prove anything. In fact, I've heard that there is considerable division and debate within the ranks over this plan.

Somehow, I seriously doubt that. But, maybe (just maybe!) if you start enough threads complaining about it, that'll tip the scales in your favor. I'm sure the folks that ride the Hoosier State are just as upset as you are that they're not forced to only travel 3 days out of the week and long to go back to the days when there was no service at all on days that the Cardinal didn't run.

Not exactly a fair comparison, as the folks along the Hoosier State line still do have the 3 day a week Cardinal option, which the current Sunset riders won't get at least initially and you're comparing a 200 mile run to an almost 600 mile run.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Has anybody forgot that Amtrak is *supposed* to be a business?

I'd be miffed if they cut Ohio service, yeah-- but you do realize that they can't run trains everywhere they want to every day of the week on time and full of people. Sometimes something has to go, the business evolves. Look, they *may* (keep in mind, may) cut the SSL only to bring it back a few years from now. This is no different than how things were run pre-Amtrak and it won't be any different in the near future.

No LD train (except for the Auto Train IIRC) actually makes in tickets what it costs. Now they can't cut all LD service, so they have to cut what isn't working. Make your arguments saying 3 days a week is killing it-- last time I checked it was doing better than some other trains. Perhaps due to the fact that it is tri-weekly. What if they made it daily and the pax just split the days. Then you're just running more consists with fewer people aboard each train. You will probably get more pax, but not enough to justify the extra costs.

 

[Ryan]

SO your contention is that because Amtrak made a (possibly) bad decision once, then any other decision that they make is inherently flawed? And that you've got a pile of data to put up against their pile of data to prove that they are going down the wrong path on this one?

Actually I'm not sure that Amtrak has a "pile of data" to prove anything. In fact, I've heard that there is considerable division and debate within the ranks over this plan.

Patrick's report certainly indicated that Amtrak has done some research and projections into the different options, which I'm sure is far more than GP35 has done. I don't doubt that the interpretation and conclusions drawn from that data are causing division and debate, but I wouldn't use that division and debate to infer the lack of data.

Somehow, I seriously doubt that. But, maybe (just maybe!) if you start enough threads complaining about it, that'll tip the scales in your favor. I'm sure the folks that ride the Hoosier State are just as upset as you are that they're not forced to only travel 3 days out of the week and long to go back to the days when there was no service at all on days that the Cardinal didn't run.

Not exactly a fair comparison, as the folks along the Hoosier State line still do have the 3 day a week Cardinal option, which the current Sunset riders won't get at least initially and you're comparing a 200 mile run to an almost 600 mile run.

No, but it's the closest one that I could think of, and it nicely illustrates the point that by all measures daily service is more than double the number of trains than 3x weekly service, a fact that is seemingly ignored. If you're concerned about the mileage difference, I offer the Palmetto at 800+ miles and Vermonter at 600 miles as trains that seem to do just fine without sleeper or full dining service.

 

[AlanB]

SO your contention is that because Amtrak made a (possibly) bad decision once, then any other decision that they make is inherently flawed? And that you've got a pile of data to put up against their pile of data to prove that they are going down the wrong path on this one?

Actually I'm not sure that Amtrak has a "pile of data" to prove anything. In fact, I've heard that there is considerable division and debate within the ranks over this plan.

Patrick's report certainly indicated that Amtrak has done some research and projections into the different options, which I'm sure is far more than GP35 has done. I don't doubt that the interpretation and conclusions drawn from that data are causing division and debate, but I wouldn't use that division and debate to infer the lack of data.

I wasn't trying to infer a lack of data, just that it's not a pile either.

Somehow, I seriously doubt that. But, maybe (just maybe!) if you start enough threads complaining about it, that'll tip the scales in your favor. I'm sure the folks that ride the Hoosier State are just as upset as you are that they're not forced to only travel 3 days out of the week and long to go back to the days when there was no service at all on days that the Cardinal didn't run.

Not exactly a fair comparison, as the folks along the Hoosier State line still do have the 3 day a week Cardinal option, which the current Sunset riders won't get at least initially and you're comparing a 200 mile run to an almost 600 mile run.

No, but it's the closest one that I could think of, and it nicely illustrates the point that by all measures daily service is more than double the number of trains than 3x weekly service, a fact that is seemingly ignored. If you're concerned about the mileage difference, I offer the Palmetto at 800+ miles and Vermonter at 600 miles as trains that seem to do just fine without sleeper or full dining service.

I wouldn't argue that daily service is going to change the numbers. The difference is that I believe that a daily Sunset will change the numbers more than some daily stub train will, and a daily Sunset will bring in more revenue. One need look no further than what happened with the Texas Eagle when it went from 3 days, to 4 days, and then 7 days per week. The numbers went through the roof that first year and have only continued to go up, albeit not at the same rate as the first full year of 7 days per week running.

 

[GP35]

SO your contention is that because Amtrak made a (possibly) bad decision once, then any other decision that they make is inherently flawed? And that you've got a pile of data to put up against their pile of data to prove that they are going down the wrong path on this one?
Somehow, I seriously doubt that. But, maybe (just maybe!) if you start enough threads complaining about it, that'll tip the scales in your favor. I'm sure the folks that ride the Hoosier State are just as upset as you are that they're not forced to only travel 3 days out of the week and long to go back to the days when there was no service at all on days that the Cardinal didn't run.

YES, IN CAPS. Amtrak killed the TE. I'm sure the data backed up Amtrak plan to kill the TE. A flawed plan just like this Sunset killing

plan is flawed. All the TE needed was daily service. All the Sunset need is daily service. TE through cars can run through daily

if Amtrak uses the 6 trainsets and the 7th set can join the other through coaches. Then no one loses LD service. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

[Ryan]

I understand what you're saying just fine.

I just think that the facts lead a different direction.

 

[GP35]

I understand what you're saying just fine.
I just think that the facts lead a different direction.

There is not facts. Amtrak or I can not say, with certainty, if the Sunset will be a successful or flop as a daily train.

The same can be said about Amtrak's stub train plan. What we do have is history. And history says a tri-weekly

train ran daily improves dramatically. History also showed the last stub train through Houston, Texas limited, flopped.

 

[GP35]

Here the perfect plan.

Run Sunset daily from NOL to LA with TE through cars. Then used the 93 single deck to run the Cardinal daily and a daily single

deck NOL-JAX/ORL...

 

[Green Maned Lion]

YES, IN CAPS. Amtrak killed the TE. I'm sure the data backed up Amtrak plan to kill the TE.

What's so hard to understand is that you ignore real history and rebuild it to suit what you are trying to say. Lets go back instead.

The year is 1997. Amtrak is on the brink of complete financial failure. Congress proposes a plan that will keep Amtrak running for another 5 years. That plan included several interesting aspects to it, one of which is that if Amtrak is not operationally self sufficient 5 years hence, the company will be shut down and liquidated.

The data, then as now, shows that daily trains have better return then tri-weeklys. Amtrak has 8 trains operating in the west (California Zephyr, Texas Eagle, Sunset Limited, Southwest Chief, Empire Builder, Pioneer, Desert Wind), and only has the funding and equipment at this point to run two of them daily- the Southwest Chief and Coast Starlight. Given its absolute and unequivocal need to improve its financial picture in 5 years time, Amtrak made a decision.

The three least-performing routes- the Texas Eagle, Pioneer, and Desert Wind would be sacrificed to make the rest of the trains daily. The Empire Builder and California Zephyr would go daily in 97, with the Sunset following in 98. But something happened- a grass roots movement nobody expected caused people to protest the demise of the Texas Eagle. Monies were appropriated to keep it running, and instead Amtrak chose to make the TE daily and keep the Sunset tri-weekly.

Amtrak's plan then was sound. Their plan now is sound.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

YES, IN CAPS. Amtrak killed the TE. I'm sure the data backed up Amtrak plan to kill the TE.

What's so hard to understand is that you ignore real history and rebuild it to suit what you are trying to say. Lets go back instead.

The year is 1997. Amtrak is on the brink of complete financial failure. Congress proposes a plan that will keep Amtrak running for another 5 years. That plan included several interesting aspects to it, one of which is that if Amtrak is not operationally self sufficient 5 years hence, the company will be shut down and liquidated.

The data, then as now, shows that daily trains have better return then tri-weeklys. Amtrak has 8 trains operating in the west (California Zephyr, Texas Eagle, Sunset Limited, Southwest Chief, Empire Builder, Pioneer, Desert Wind), and only has the funding and equipment at this point to run two of them daily- the Southwest Chief and Coast Starlight. Given its absolute and unequivocal need to improve its financial picture in 5 years time, Amtrak made a decision.

The three least-performing routes- the Texas Eagle, Pioneer, and Desert Wind would be sacrificed to make the rest of the trains daily. The Empire Builder and California Zephyr would go daily in 97, with the Sunset following in 98. But something happened- a grass roots movement nobody expected caused people to protest the demise of the Texas Eagle. Monies were appropriated to keep it running, and instead Amtrak chose to make the TE daily and keep the Sunset tri-weekly.

Amtrak's plan then was sound. Their plan now is sound.

Agreed on all points.

As much as I would love to see more trains everywhere (we all would) wee have to remember the entire reason Amtrak hasn't been split up and liquidated is because it has had to make tough choices as a business first... government agency second...

 

[Trogdor]

YES, IN CAPS. Amtrak killed the TE. I'm sure the data backed up Amtrak plan to kill the TE. A flawed plan just like this Sunset killingplan is flawed. All the TE needed was daily service. All the Sunset need is daily service. TE through cars can run through daily

if Amtrak uses the 6 trainsets and the 7th set can join the other through coaches. Then no one loses LD service. Why is that so hard to understand?

I don't understand what the heck you're talking about.

Where is Amtrak getting the 6 trainsets from? The Sunset Limited currently uses 3. Where are the other 3 coming from to make your so-called 6-train operation?

The Texas Eagle is still alive. Amtrak did not kill it. It is true that Amtrak planned to discontinue the route over a decade ago. But the route never stopped operating, ergo Amtrak did not kill it.

I know railfans can be very emotional and irrational creatures, but seriously, if something happened over 10 years ago, it is long past time to get over it.

 

[jphjaxfl]

YES, IN CAPS. Amtrak killed the TE. I'm sure the data backed up Amtrak plan to kill the TE. A flawed plan just like this Sunset killingplan is flawed. All the TE needed was daily service. All the Sunset need is daily service. TE through cars can run through daily

if Amtrak uses the 6 trainsets and the 7th set can join the other through coaches. Then no one loses LD service. Why is that so hard to understand?

I don't understand what the heck you're talking about.

Where is Amtrak getting the 6 trainsets from? The Sunset Limited currently uses 3. Where are the other 3 coming from to make your so-called 6-train operation?

The Texas Eagle is still alive. Amtrak did not kill it. It is true that Amtrak planned to discontinue the route over a decade ago. But the route never stopped operating, ergo Amtrak did not kill it.

I know railfans can be very emotional and irrational creatures, but seriously, if something happened over 10 years ago, it is long past time to get over it.

The state of Texas actually provided a loan to Amtrak (when George Bush was governor) to keep the Texas Eagle running. Senator Hutchison was very active in getting Amtrak to run the Texas Eagle daily.

 

[printman2000]

YES, IN CAPS. Amtrak killed the TE. I'm sure the data backed up Amtrak plan to kill the TE. A flawed plan just like this Sunset killingplan is flawed. All the TE needed was daily service. All the Sunset need is daily service. TE through cars can run through daily

if Amtrak uses the 6 trainsets and the 7th set can join the other through coaches. Then no one loses LD service. Why is that so hard to understand?

The Texas Eagle is still alive. Amtrak did not kill it. It is true that Amtrak planned to discontinue the route over a decade ago. But the route never stopped operating, ergo Amtrak did not kill it.

I know railfans can be very emotional and irrational creatures, but seriously, if something happened over 10 years ago, it is long past time to get over it.

I think you are missing his point. His claim is that Amtrak looked at data back then and decided the best move would be to kill the Texas Eagle (even though it never happened because of outside sources). He is simply claiming this is evidence of poor decision making by Amtrak.

 

[GP35]

YES, IN CAPS. Amtrak killed the TE. I'm sure the data backed up Amtrak plan to kill the TE.

What's so hard to understand is that you ignore real history and rebuild it to suit what you are trying to say. Lets go back instead.

The year is 1997. Amtrak is on the brink of complete financial failure. Congress proposes a plan that will keep Amtrak running for another 5 years. That plan included several interesting aspects to it, one of which is that if Amtrak is not operationally self sufficient 5 years hence, the company will be shut down and liquidated.

The data, then as now, shows that daily trains have better return then tri-weeklys. Amtrak has 8 trains operating in the west (California Zephyr, Texas Eagle, Sunset Limited, Southwest Chief, Empire Builder, Pioneer, Desert Wind), and only has the funding and equipment at this point to run two of them daily- the Southwest Chief and Coast Starlight. Given its absolute and unequivocal need to improve its financial picture in 5 years time, Amtrak made a decision.

The three least-performing routes- the Texas Eagle, Pioneer, and Desert Wind would be sacrificed to make the rest of the trains daily. The Empire Builder and California Zephyr would go daily in 97, with the Sunset following in 98. But something happened- a grass roots movement nobody expected caused people to protest the demise of the Texas Eagle. Monies were appropriated to keep it running, and instead Amtrak chose to make the TE daily and keep the Sunset tri-weekly.

Amtrak's plan then was sound. Their plan now is sound.

Amtrak plan was to kill the TE. As you said, and I agree, it was TE supporters who saved the TE. Then you and your cheerleaders gave

credit to Amtrak for the brilliant move in not only keeping the TE, but running it daily.

 

[GP35]

YES, IN CAPS. Amtrak killed the TE. I'm sure the data backed up Amtrak plan to kill the TE. A flawed plan just like this Sunset killingplan is flawed. All the TE needed was daily service. All the Sunset need is daily service. TE through cars can run through daily

if Amtrak uses the 6 trainsets and the 7th set can join the other through coaches. Then no one loses LD service. Why is that so hard to understand?

I don't understand what the heck you're talking about.

Where is Amtrak getting the 6 trainsets from? The Sunset Limited currently uses 3. Where are the other 3 coming from to make your so-called 6-train operation?

If what you said is right, that there is only 3 superliner trainsets. How is Amtrak planning to run daily TE to LA AND Daily superliner service between NOL-SAS with those

3 trainsets?

The Texas Eagle is still alive. Amtrak did not kill it. It is true that Amtrak planned to discontinue the route over a decade ago. But the route never stopped operating, ergo Amtrak did not kill it.
I know railfans can be very emotional and irrational creatures, but seriously, if something happened over 10 years ago, it is long past time to get over it.

TE was killed. Amtrak killed it. Public outrage forced Amtrak to keep running it. And now I can only hope public outrage can stop Amtrak from destroying

another LD train.

 

[jis]

If what you said is right, that there is only 3 superliner trainsets. How is Amtrak planning to run daily TE to LA AND Daily superliner service between NOL-SAS with those3 trainsets?

A quick exercise using some paper and a pencil in which one adds up all the cars that are available from the sets used to run the TE and the Sunset and the run through cars from TE to LAX, and then redistributes them to a 7 day run through TE and a 7 day stub train will show that they do actually add up. This has been discussed in another thread already, which I don't have the patience to dig up right now.

The daily Superliner NOL - SAS does not require many cars. It requires two sets each with 2 or 3 Coaches of which one is a Coach-Baggage and a CCC. That is a total of only 4 to 6 Coaches and 2 CCCs.

The sets used for TE and Sunset and the runthrough cars minus the cars needed for the NOL - SAS service are more than adequate for running TE daily to LAX.

Contrary to what you appear to think, I do not believe that Amtrak planners have as much problem with plain arithmetic as you appear to have.