HSR Tunnel Proposed for Long Island Sound

[CHamilton]

I thought I'd seen this before, but can't find any references to it on AU.

One Proposal For Amtrak Bullet Train Route: Under Long Island Sound

As Amtrak studies how to bring bullet trains to its frantically busy Northeast Corridor, one design team is suggesting a radically new route requiring a roughly 18-mile-long tunnel beneath Long Island Sound.

Trains speeding from Washington to Boston would run through the heart of Long Island, cross into Connecticut through a tunnel emerging in Milford, head to Hartford and then race east toward Worcester on new tracks running alongside I-84.

The segment between Manhattan and Hartford would cost about $20 billion, according to the University of Pennsylvania's high-speed rail design studio, which first put forward the idea in 2010. Overall, the full 450-mile route from Washington to Boston would cost about $100 billion, PennDesign said.

 

[jis]

It was one of the alignment alternatives originally looked at as part of Amtrak's NEC-NG study and then further refined by a group of transportation students as part of their Masters Thesis or some such. Someone appears to have dug up the student's report.

 

[Shawn Ryu]

Waste of money.

Its gonna cost trillions, if not 100x more to build a tunnel that long in this country. Not to mention re-electrifying LIRR corridor. Which comes with billions of its own cost.

 

[afigg]

Waste of money.

Its gonna cost trillions, if not 100x more to build a tunnel that long in this country. Not to mention re-electrifying LIRR corridor. Which comes with billions of its own cost.

"Re-electrifying LIRR corridor"? Clearly any HSR route to Jamaica and Ronkonkoma on Long Island would use entirely new dedicated tracks with catenary, although they might use various LIRR Right Of Ways. If the LIRR ROWs have enough room and if LIRR/MTA would even consider cooperating one iota with that route concept.

As for costing trillions, the distance from Port Jefferson to West Haven is around 24 miles. The tunnel would be around the same length as the Chunnel which did not cost trillions to build. Now I do not see this route as a practical plan at all, but let's not overstate the cost.

The proposals for a HSR route running eastward from NYC partway out LI and then going north under the sound do make the point that there is a large population on LI that is not well served for train trips to Boston and New England. LI residents have to take LIRR to Penn Station and then go back through the East River tunnels and north through Queens to New Rochelle. The Next Gen NEC HSR route analysis if it is to be thorough should consider a route through Queens or Jamaica station which provides for much more direct HSR connections for people in LI.

The route shown on the map does show a route from Hartford to Boston that should be considered. The Next Gen NEC route analysis for NYC to Boston should consider the route taken split into 2 parts: NYP to Hartford and Hartford to BOS. I think a new HSR route to Boston has to go through Hartford whatever the final route is. The route from Hartford along I-84 through Tolland to Worcester to Boston would connect to population and business centers that are not served by the current NEC route through Rhode island and Providence. A route from Hartford along I-84 to I-90 to Worcester and then on MBTA owned ROW to Boston could be much less expensive than Hartford to Providence over who know what route in eastern CT.

[edit: poor wording fix]

 

[jis]

"Re-electrifying LIRR corridor"? Clearly any HSR route to Jamaica and Ronkonkoma on Long Island would use entirely new dedicated tracks with catenary, although they might use LIRR Rights Of Ways. If the LIRR ROWs have enough room and if LIRR/MTA would even consider cooperating one iota with that route concept.

At least between Harold and Hicksville the LIRR ROW barely has room for one more track. I suspect a line such as this, if ever built, will have to be elevated most of the way over some combination of the LIRR ROW and the I495 ROW upto about Central Islip and then perhaps along the Rt 111 and Rt 347 axis to the vicinity of Stony Brook, and then dive under Port Jeff. BTW, Terryville is about 4 miles from the SUNY campus in Stony Brook which used to be my old stomping grounds for 5 years. I have no idea why they think Terryville is a good place to put a station at, unnless they are thinking of running further out along I495 or the LIRR Ronkonkoma ROW and then hanging a left to throw in a station at Islip Airport near the current Ronkonkoma LIRR station. I suspect the actual routing will be east of Port Jeff, between Port Jeff and Miller Place just to avoid property issues at Port Jeff/Belle Terre. It would most likely just follow 347 straight to a point near Mt. Sinai and then continue straight under Mt. Sinai/Miller Place while 347 hangs a right there.

As for costing trillions, the distance from Port Jefferson to West Haven is around 24 miles. The tunnel would be around the same length as the Chunnel which did not cost trillions to build. Now I do not see this route as a practical plan at all, but let's not overstate the cost.

Yeah, it won't cost anything like a trillion. The tunnel itself should be well under 20 - 30 billion maybe.

 

[me_little_me]

The cost could possibly be split with a freight track or a car-carrier track or possibly even a car tunnel.

 

[Anderson]

I'd like to see projected ridership on this versus Amtrak's existing plan, if for no other reason than I suspect this could do some serious business both on Long Island (I'm thinking of what I'll call a "commuter bullet train": A part of the service that is really only aimed at executives living out on the east end of Long Island due to its cost but which can get folks into NYC more quickly than the LIRR can really hope to) as well as clearing out at least some of the traffic from Islip Airport (and any other airports on the end of the island that generate business because NYC is so far off that the travel times to/from Penn Station make rail options unworkable.

The thing I probably like about this most, though, is that there's definitely room in the concept, at least, to allow for either trains to be routed Long Island-Providence-Boston or Stamford-Hartford-Boston because the routes cross one another. Basically, it adds scheduling flexibility and offers a transfer point for folks from Long Island to reach coastal destinations and for folks from the Inland Route to reach places along the CT coast (such as Stamford).

 

[Shawn Ryu]

Jamaica becoming an Amtrak station would be good though. Gives JFK passengers more options.

 

[Anderson]

That's a good point. Also, post-Sandy, I do like the idea of Amtrak having two routings between super-major destinations (like New York and Boston, if not New York and Washington) to allow something to be done if/when things go really bad on one of the lines.

One interesting question about this proposal (and others): What're the plans for routing within NYC? A new level at Penn? A new "area" to the station adjacent?

 

[jis]

One interesting question about this proposal (and others): What're the plans for routing within NYC? A new level at Penn? A new "area" to the station adjacent?

Most proposals involve a pair of deep tubes starting somewhere in NJ Meadowlands running entirely under Manhattan and either part of Bronx (or in case of the LI option presumably under Queens) to emerge somewhere around New Rochelle (or for LI option, somewhere beyond Jamaica I suppose), with a station under Penn Station, possibility of a station under GCT, though that has been downplayed of late. This segment is least likely to befunded early on, and possibly never, since it is very very expensive and RoI is somewhat debatable.

 

[Nexis4Jersey]

I think they would go with the cut and cover methond instead of Boring which would be slower and more expensive under the sound. As for Long Island they would only need to get to Hicksville then they could ride the LIE ROW intill Medford , the Tunnel portal on LI is near Wading River and not Port Jefferson.

 

[Timmy]

One interesting question about this proposal (and others): What're the plans for routing within NYC? A new level at Penn? A new "area" to the station adjacent?

Most proposals involve a pair of deep tubes starting somewhere in NJ Meadowlands running entirely under Manhattan and either part of Bronx (or in case of the LI option presumably under Queens) to emerge somewhere around New Rochelle (or for LI option, somewhere beyond Jamaica I suppose), with a station under Penn Station, possibility of a station under GCT, though that has been downplayed of late. This segment is least likely to befunded early on, and possibly never, since it is very very expensive and RoI is somewhat debatable.

A connection tunnel from Penn to GCT could be used not only for HSR, but also for a commuter service cross citylink (something like crossrail in London), connecting different suburban rail systems and allowing through running from NJ to LI and Westchester.

On the other hand, a stop in Jamaica and a direct connection to a JFK airport HSR station (tunnel or elevated line) would allow people on short haul connecting flights from the airport to continue their journey easily by train. This would free up slots in the areas congested airports. This is how most major airports in Europe operate (Frankfurt, Paris, Amsterdam, etc).

 

[jis]

I think the probability of this happening at present is marginally greater than zero but significantly less than 0.001% but things could change if the PEIS takes it more seriously. So we'll have to wait and see, but still a very very long shot at best.