Hoosier State Going from IPH Back to Amtrak

[Manny T]

I rode the IP twice. Nice, but in my opinion not all that different from Amtrak.

It was fun while it lasted. Rode BC both ways. Not sure if HenryK was in BC or coach. Boy was it different from Amtrak (in BC). Let's start with the free unlimited alcoholic beverages from end to end. Let's throw in a great dinner and a great breakfast (breakfast was similar to Amtrak -- except for the beverages again). Let's add white coated attendants with first class restaurant quality training--and no chips on their shoulder. Ah, those were the days, my friend.

 

[Seaboard92]

I can tell you most people dealing with IPH equipment usually are more surly then most Amtrak employees. And my evidence is myself. The reason Amtrak employees are so surly is they deal with bad passengers and bad equipment. If you can fix bad equipment with decent equipment you would watch morale go up. And even these new cars now won't do much to help as they need to be kept up.

And as far as IPH cars and their issues. Let me list the problems with the most recent car I've worked for them.

MRLX 9412 vista dome

1. Bad dome glass filled with cracks

2. Bad seals in all windows allowing persistent leeks. I fixed it with paper towels taped to the biggest leaks and replaced every few hours.

3. Broken seats. I had to rope off seats because of someone would sit in them the backs of the chairs would fall off.

4. Broken HVAC. Didn't effectively cool the car in the summer.

5. Leaking condenser pan. Over the dome stairs making it a slip hazard all day.

6. Broken walk over seats in the dome. I had to hammer the pin in and lock broken seats into one position. So no flipping it with train direction.

7. Bad springs. Causing the car to ride roughly.

8. Worn upholstery on all seats letting the car look poor.

9. Worn out carpet that was stained and looked poor.

10. Short circuiting electoral locker (I swear it was possessed)

11. Lighting. Half the car had burned out light bulbs. This car had come straight out of the IPH shop.

12. Plumbing. Pipes were too small and would clog up anytime someone did number two. After each use I had to go in and use a screwdriver with a long handle to push stuff down.

13. Faulty traps. They didn't want to open or shut properly without putting major force into it.

Now let's talk about one of their flagship domes.

1. Trap latch doesn't latch.

2. Fancy Pullman logos are peeling off the tables.

3. Toilet rocks back and forth all day. Turned out it had two of five bolts holding it to the floor.

4. PA system doesn't work.

5. Needs new springs. Doesn't ride right.

6. Half the seats don't recline.

7. Mirrors downstairs are scratched and cracked.

8. Cars arrived to me trashed wth garbage left over and crumbs everywhere.

Need I say more.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Yeah the IPH toilets were terrible. That was on all of the cars, including the fancy rear observation cars.

 

[rtabern]

Unless Amtrak comes to it senses and lowers the price for business class on the Hoosier... I hope passenger realize they are being ripped off and stop upgrading on this train.

I noticed that business class fares are the same before and after March 1st.

So if you ride BC on February 26... you get a ride in a beautiful dome car with sweeping views, a free full breakfast cooked fresh aboard the train, unlimited booze, etc... and then a week later FOR THE SAME PRICE... you get a seat in an Amfleet with no food or alcohol and maybe a bottle of water or a 280-carlorie cranberry juice that is mostly sugar water. Nice. (The conductors who work this train have told me that the Amtrak Hoosier will be one engine and two cars -- one regular coach and one business class car with the food area un-staffed like it its on BC on the Cardinal right now with just some self-serve water and juice thrown behind the counter)

I understand Amtrak can't provide a dome car or the same experience as Iowa Pacific did -- but why are prices for BC not going down with the cut in service? Not to get too off topic, but again, this is why we stopped riding other Amtrak LD trains. Cuts in the quality of service but no real drop in price except the Silver Star(vation).

 

[jis]

INDOT as the funding agency for the train gets to decide what the fares will be since they have to fund the farebox shortfall. I doubt that new fares will be posted until the actual contract for operation beyond Feb 28th between Amtrak and INDOT is in place. There is also the outside chance that there will be no contract and the train will cease to operate too.

 

[Lonestar648]

Is the ridership dropping? How does the Cardinal Indiana ridership compare? I would hope that Indiana and Amtrak would develop a plan to keep the train and entice more people to ride rather than drive through the Chicago traffic and along the boring I-65. I have driven that route to/from Indianapolis too many times, always wishing the train had better timing so I could use it more frequently.

 

[seat38a]

From my understanding, those (Talgo) are heading out west to CA.

peter

My understanding too, and yet they have not left. The Talgo are still in Indiana with no published date to be leaving for California.

The Midwest can keep your grubby hands off of the Talgo's! Its OURS for at least 5 years. The State put up the cash for them. Also, Talgo got the contract from LA Metro to refurbish trains, allowing them to keep the Milwaukee facility running. The last people Talgo is going to do is screw over their best customer right now. The Hoosier State and whatever other services are going to have to stick with whatever equipment Amtrak can scrounge up, dirty bathroom and all.

 

[Karl1459]

Lets take away some information from this situation.

1. Amtrak is better at estimating and managing costs to operate short interstate (Hoosier type) service than we the foamers and some legislators give them credit.

2. Privatization of trains will remain a goal of a number of stakeholders for service. Those who ride and want different service, and those who underwrite the service. Some, not all.

3. "Tribal Knowledge" of how to run good trains under contract does not exist in the US. Some mouse has to step into the lab and be first.

4. Iowa Pacific was the first. That mouse died. Too high a level of service for what they charged.

5. Profit for a private contractor has to be Fares + Subsidy - Costs = profit. Maintenance is a huge cost, and in the railroad world it is tempting to defer and you end up in a huge hole with no escape.

6. Equipment is a huge investment, and very long term. Without long term contracts a private operator is not going to invest in either new or capital refurbished rolling stock.

 

[jis]

To reiterate the whole thing about Talgo is a nonsensical Red Herring in this discussion. The equipment that will be used at least through June will be standard midwest Amtrak equipment. What happens after that is anyone's guess, but it will not be Talgo anything. Whther there will be any food service or not will be entirely upto INDOT's willingness to pay or not for whatever number Amtrak comes up with for it..

The focus on Hoosier State at the present time is about what INDOT is willing to pay for what service and whether it can be realistically provided for what they are willing to pay. They tried to reduce their costs with the current experiment that just apparently failed - for whatever reason. The analysis of why will go on for a while as the more complete story surfaces over time. It appears that all the relevant facts are not quite known yet.

 

[A Voice]

Unless Amtrak comes to it senses and lowers the price for business class on the Hoosier... I hope passenger realize they are being ripped off and stop upgrading on this train.

I noticed that business class fares are the same before and after March 1st.

So if you ride BC on February 26... you get a ride in a beautiful dome car with sweeping views, a free full breakfast cooked fresh aboard the train, unlimited booze, etc... and then a week later FOR THE SAME PRICE... you get a seat in an Amfleet with no food or alcohol and maybe a bottle of water or a 280-carlorie cranberry juice that is mostly sugar water. Nice. (The conductors who work this train have told me that the Amtrak Hoosier will be one engine and two cars -- one regular coach and one business class car with the food area un-staffed like it its on BC on the Cardinal right now with just some self-serve water and juice thrown behind the counter)

I understand Amtrak can't provide a dome car or the same experience as Iowa Pacific did -- but why are prices for BC not going down with the cut in service? Not to get too off topic, but again, this is why we stopped riding other Amtrak LD trains. Cuts in the quality of service but no real drop in price except the Silver Star(vation).

One story I've read (though I cannot confirm its veracity) is that the Indiana Department of Transportation (INDOT) did, in fact, request the Amtrak full dome for at least interim service on the Hoosier State. Not to cast doubt on your conductor sources, but I would be very surprised if Amfleet equipment were used on the Amtrak-operated train. Probably even Amtrak doesn't yet know what the amenities will be (published articles have stated as much); As jis noted, it will be up to what INDOT wants and is willing to pay for.

 

[jis]

Yeah. I think the Conductor is speculating. At this time only those that are doing the negotiation between Amtrak and INDOT may have some vague idea of where things are headed. Also remember, these negotiations are happening under Moorman, not under Boardman too. Admittedly, I have no idea what, if any, would be the impact of that difference.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Also it would be very easy to ask for cost for a feature, and after you have Amtrak price quote then determine what you can pay for.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Even if Ocean View is on the Hoosier State, it is bare bones with no provision for serving food and drink to Biz Class passengers and I doubt Amtrak wants to pay a LSA to man it,they're in a cutback mode right now!

Oceanview,is always First come,first served when on a Scheduled Train with no extra charge for seating up top in the dome.(could be different on a Special?)

I'm not even sure it could hold up Mechanically on a Regular Scheduled Train?

 

[Ryan]

I doubt Amtrak wants to pay a LAS to man it,they're in a cutback mode right now!

It doesn't matter what Amtrak wants to pay, what matters is what InDOT wants to pay for and what they and Amtrak can agree to a cost on. If InDOT wants to spring for food service and the labor costs that go along with it, the train will have food service.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Even if Ocean View is on the Hoosier State, it is bare bones with no provision for serving food and drink to Biz Class passengers and I doubt Amtrak wants to pay a LSA to man it,they're in a cutback mode right now!

Wouldn't it be the state paying for it? Perhaps Inianna could pay for a non-Amtrak service staff ala state of Maine and Downeaster?

 

[Ryan]

Oceanview,is always First come,first served when on a Scheduled Train with no extra charge for seating up top in the dome.(could be different on a Special?)

It's also not out of the question that Amtrak in InDOT agree to use the dome car as the BC car and only allow passengers who have paid the upcharge. That would be a BC upgrade worth buying!

 

[jis]

It would be somewhat crazy to sell accommodation for a special price on a car which has absolutely no backup and is known to be not exceedingly reliable. My money at present is on this dream not coming true. Forced downgrades may be more frequent than would be acceptable. That was to some extent a problem with the IPH operation too - as in "no train" even.

 

[Ryan]

Agreed that it's not likely, "not out of the question" probably oversold it.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Yep,there were lots of Bustitutions and Cancelations during IPs tenure.Wonder how much $$$ that cost due to refunds and never agains?

If Oceanview is gonna be on scheduled service Id pay extra for the Adirondack,Surfliners,Pennsy,Coast Starlight,Cardinal,Cap,Empire Builder,Cali Zephyr and the Cascades but that's it!(Scenery,Scenery,Scenery!!!!)

 

[rtabern]

Unless Amtrak comes to it senses and lowers the price for business class on the Hoosier... I hope passenger realize they are being ripped off and stop upgrading on this train.

I noticed that business class fares are the same before and after March 1st.

So if you ride BC on February 26... you get a ride in a beautiful dome car with sweeping views, a free full breakfast cooked fresh aboard the train, unlimited booze, etc... and then a week later FOR THE SAME PRICE... you get a seat in an Amfleet with no food or alcohol and maybe a bottle of water or a 280-carlorie cranberry juice that is mostly sugar water. Nice. (The conductors who work this train have told me that the Amtrak Hoosier will be one engine and two cars -- one regular coach and one business class car with the food area un-staffed like it its on BC on the Cardinal right now with just some self-serve water and juice thrown behind the counter)

I understand Amtrak can't provide a dome car or the same experience as Iowa Pacific did -- but why are prices for BC not going down with the cut in service? Not to get too off topic, but again, this is why we stopped riding other Amtrak LD trains. Cuts in the quality of service but no real drop in price except the Silver Star(vation).

One story I've read (though I cannot confirm its veracity) is that the Indiana Department of Transportation (INDOT) did, in fact, request the Amtrak full dome for at least interim service on the Hoosier State. Not to cast doubt on your conductor sources, but I would be very surprised if Amfleet equipment were used on the Amtrak-operated train. Probably even Amtrak doesn't yet know what the amenities will be (published articles have stated as much); As jis noted, it will be up to what INDOT wants and is willing to pay for.

Can you provide a link to the story that you read about Ocean View being put on the Hoosier? I'd love to read it, please.

You'd be "very surprised" if Amfleet equipment was used on the Hoosier State after March 1st? Why? I would think an Amfleet or Horizon coach is much more likely than the train running with Ocean View. But. we'll see in about 28 days.

 

[jis]

I cannot see it using anything other than a standard midwest consist or a truncated version of one.

 

[Lonestar648]

I think IP over promising coupled with INDOT pricing not in sync, makes for difficult negotiations between Amtrak and INDOT. Based on potential revenue guarantee from the state, what will Amtrak offer to us as passengers? Unfortunately, what IP was promising is not a contractual concern to Amtrak unless INDOT pays for it. I see just a very basic service with no frills.

 

[rtabern]

Here is something no one has posted yet. Last night, my wife and I crunched the numbers involving IPH and the Hoosier State... and it's quite shocking how little money IPH was getting through the deal.

According to the news reports that we have read, INDOT agreed to pay Iowa Pacific $500,000 a year to run the onboard services and cars for the Hoosier State. That might sound like a lot... but break it down a little and you might be surprised. That $500,000 a year comes out to just about $9,615.38 per week. There are 4 round-trips between Chicago and Indianapolis per week. So, you're down to making $2,403.82 per round-trip... or $1,201.92 per one-way. Basically, they were getting 200 bucks per car... per trip... when you factor in the 3 coaches, 2 locomotives, and 1 dome car. How can a company sustain itself on that? with providing enough staff to serve full dining car meals?

I know a private car trip between Chicago and Indy would cost you over $10,000 if you were to charter it on the back of Amtrak... they were only making less than one-fourth of that.

We are big supporters of Iowa Pacific and love the crews, Ed Ellis, and the service that they gave to passengers the past 20 months on the route. I don't see us riding under Amtrak unless they offer the same amenities.

 

[jis]

You can with a great deal of certainty plan on not riding Amtrak then As you observe, what IP was providing was patently unsustainable, and there is no reasonable reason to believe that InDOT intends to spend much more than that. I would be more concerned about whether there will be a train at all come 1 March or 1 July, than whether you will ride it..

 

[keelhauled]

Trains Magazine has an article out today with some more details--InDoT budgeted $254,000 monthly for the service, and signed separate contracts with Amtrak and IP, where Amtrak would bill the state for their costs, and IP would get the remainder. Among the costs Amtrak billed the state for were timekeeping incentive payments to CSX, so as OTP improved, more money went to CSX, leaving less for IP. Apparently, IP managed to not understand the terms of the contract they were signing, and were caught by surprise by this development.