GE Genesis Replacement possibilities.

[bgiaquin]

I know it is a few years away but I think this is a worthy discussion. What might replace the Genesis? I know EMD has stated that their new F125 will meet Amtrak standards, so that could be a possibility. Thoughts?

 

[afigg]

The contract for the P-42 replacement is in the RFP stage. Illinois is the lead state on an order for ~35 Next Gen diesels funded by HSIPR grants. The RFP includes options for 50 to 75 similar configuration locomotives and 125 to 150 Long-Distance Configuration locomotives, ie P-42 replacements for both the LD and corridor trains.

Was discussed in this thread back in August: RFP released for 35 Next Gen Locomotives.

Who will the winner of the contract be? Well, with the Buy American requirements, not that many vendors to choose from.

 

[AlanB]

That's what the States have elected to buy going forward. Amtrak has several engineers (not the driving kind) working on their specs for the replacement of the P42's. They may or may not decide to stick with what the States decided to buy, or they may pursue a different loco.

 

[battalion51]

There are still quite a few existing vendors that could submit bids and meet the Buy American requirements. Off the top of my head EMD/Progress Rail, MPI, GE, and Brookville all come to mind as potential vendors.

 

[bgiaquin]

There are still quite a few existing vendors that could submit bids and meet the Buy American requirements. Off the top of my head EMD/Progress Rail, MPI, GE, and Brookville all come to mind as potential vendors.

As I said earlier, EMD has the F125 coming out in 2015, which will be both a commuter loco AND a intercity loco. MPI & Brookville are more than capable of designing a locomotive to meet Amtrak specs. However, I am not so sure that GE wants to reenter the passenger business.

 

[NE933]

There are still quite a few existing vendors that could submit bids and meet the Buy American requirements. Off the top of my head EMD/Progress Rail, MPI, GE, and Brookville all come to mind as potential vendors.

As I said earlier, EMD has the F125 coming out in 2015, which will be both a commuter loco AND a intercity loco. MPI & Brookville are more than capable of designing a locomotive to meet Amtrak specs. However, I am not so sure that GE wants to reenter the passenger business.

Why? They bidded for the electric locomotives, shows there is still iinterest.

 

[battalion51]

One of the things that still confounds me about the new engines, IIRC, the PRIIA specs that were put out there still do not call for a separate HEP package. In this era of high gas prices why haven't they got on board with the idea of a separate HEP package like most commuter roads have?

 

[Blackwolf]

One of the things that still confounds me about the new engines, IIRC, the PRIIA specs that were put out there still do not call for a separate HEP package. In this era of high gas prices why haven't they got on board with the idea of a separate HEP package like most commuter roads have?

Is there anything that forbids a manufacturer from putting a separate HEP package as a "standard features" product? As in, lets say the F125 was designed from the get-go as having a Prime Mover and a HEP generator (much like the F59's do,) would Amtrak be so idiotic as to force EMD to remove the HEP generator and have Head-End Power come off the Prime Mover just because PRIIA specs say so?

 

[Fan Railer]

One of the things that still confounds me about the new engines, IIRC, the PRIIA specs that were put out there still do not call for a separate HEP package. In this era of high gas prices why haven't they got on board with the idea of a separate HEP package like most commuter roads have?

Is there anything that forbids a manufacturer from putting a separate HEP package as a "standard features" product? As in, lets say the F125 was designed from the get-go as having a Prime Mover and a HEP generator (much like the F59's do,) would Amtrak be so idiotic as to force EMD to remove the HEP generator and have Head-End Power come off the Prime Mover just because PRIIA specs say so?

Separate HEP generators for long distance service don't make sense in terms of fuel economy or maintenance. The HEP inverter setup off of the main prime mover saves more fuel in long distance service than having a smaller genset roaring away at 1800 rpm. The main reason more commuter railroads prefer the separate HEP generator setup is so that 100% of the prime mover horsepower can be dedicated to traction (which means greater acceleration, which is crucial in keeping schedules in commuter service, where stations are between a mile and maybe 2-3 miles apart). This is something that is not as important when station stops are dozens or even hundreds of miles apart, as they are in long distance service.

 

[battalion51]

I'd still be curious to run the numbers on it. IIRC a P-42s maximum speed is 1080 RPM, but with HEP running has to stay at a minimum of 900 RPM if its delivering traction (700 RPM if its in Standby). So essentially your prime mover is sitting in the 6th notch constantly, regardless of how much power it needs. On some trains even the sixth notch might be a bit much, think Cal Zephyr going downgrade using Dynamic Braking. Even other situations where a train is idling in a station for 20, 30, 60 minutes is going to burn a lot more fuel at 700 or 900 RPM than a smaller engine running at 1800 RPM.

 

[jis]

OTOH on the genset-like D mode of ALP45, the rpm of the engine (and number of engines running) is determined by the load demand, and dynamic brake feeds HEP first before being blown off, thus automatically reducing rpm of engine when going downhill or applying brakes. I don't know whether F125 uses legacy electric coupling or the more modern electric control system that would allow for such additional savings. A lot would depend on such matters.

 

[bgiaquin]

There are still quite a few existing vendors that could submit bids and meet the Buy American requirements. Off the top of my head EMD/Progress Rail, MPI, GE, and Brookville all come to mind as potential vendors.

As I said earlier, EMD has the F125 coming out in 2015, which will be both a commuter loco AND a intercity loco. MPI & Brookville are more than capable of designing a locomotive to meet Amtrak specs. However, I am not so sure that GE wants to reenter the passenger business.

Why? They bidded for the electric locomotives, shows there is still iinterest.

They did? Well that changes the game a little bit then.Though I have a feeling Amtrak might go to EMD.

 

[Fan Railer]

I'd still be curious to run the numbers on it. IIRC a P-42s maximum speed is 1080 RPM, but with HEP running has to stay at a minimum of 900 RPM if its delivering traction (700 RPM if its in Standby). So essentially your prime mover is sitting in the 6th notch constantly, regardless of how much power it needs. On some trains even the sixth notch might be a bit much, think Cal Zephyr going downgrade using Dynamic Braking. Even other situations where a train is idling in a station for 20, 30, 60 minutes is going to burn a lot more fuel at 700 or 900 RPM than a smaller engine running at 1800 RPM.

I remember there are numbers on the web indicating a P42's fuel consumption. Even though the prime mover is locked at 900 RPM while supplying HEP, the gallons per hour consumed still vary depending on what notch the locomotive throttle is in. Also, you have to remember that the newer inverter driven HEP allows the prime mover to idle at around 600 rpm (notch 3), thus further reducing idle consumption.

ok here are some figures that I hope you can use, a GE P-42 fuel usage Notch RPM Fuel usage RPM Fuel usage

8 1050 198 900 172

7 978 160 900 172

6 978 130 900 159

5 978 102 900 130

4 900 72 900 102

3 900 51 900 82

2 604 23 900 58

1 468 12 900 47

Idle 468 4 900 37

The second set of figures is for HEP at 400KW

To make the numbers above understandable, the first column is the notch the throttle is in. The second column is the engine speed (rpm) while not in HEP mode. The third column is consumption in gallons per hour for non-HEP mode. The 4th column is obviously RPM in hep mode (locked at 900 regardless of notch), and the 5th column is consumption for each notch in HEP mode.

 

[cirdan]

There are still quite a few existing vendors that could submit bids and meet the Buy American requirements. Off the top of my head EMD/Progress Rail, MPI, GE, and Brookville all come to mind as potential vendors.

maybe even Siemens could come up with a diesel version of the ACS-64?

Unlikely, I know, but just saying it's not impossible.

 

[Fan Railer]

There are still quite a few existing vendors that could submit bids and meet the Buy American requirements. Off the top of my head EMD/Progress Rail, MPI, GE, and Brookville all come to mind as potential vendors.

maybe even Siemens could come up with a diesel version of the ACS-64?

Unlikely, I know, but just saying it's not impossible.

http://w3.usa.siemens.com/mobility/us/en/interurban-mobility/rail-solutions/locomotives/Pages/locomotives.aspx

Furthermore, Siemens is in the process of developing a high-speed diesel electric locomotive (up to 125 mph) to support the growing demand for accelerated passenger rail services in North America.

They're working on it.

 

[NE933]

Does Siemens 'do diesel'? I thought they stuck to electrical only.

 

[battalion51]

Looks like they're working on it, I stand corrected. Wouldn't that be something to see a diesel version of the ACS? I'd guess dual cabs would probably go out the window, but I'd guess the cab would have a pretty similar layout. The big question is do they develop their own prime mover, or do they follow the MPI model and drop in a GE or EMD motor.

 

[Fan Railer]

Does Siemens 'do diesel'? I thought they stuck to electrical only.

They have a diesel version of their european Vectron.