Future flooding for Empire Builder?

[jmbgeg]

All of this going on and zero service alerts on the Empire Builder posted on the Amtrak site. Are you kidding me?

That's hardly surprising; Amtrak is notorious for not getting timely info up on its website regarding disruptions. This has been a huge criticism for years. They've been a bit better of late at getting something up, although often not until the problem is several hours old, if not a day old. And that's better because they never used to get anything up most times.

But still it's not uncommon to learn about service disruptions faster from commuter service info, newspapers, and even the freight RR's themselves, before learning about it from Amtrak via the website.

They would save themselves a lot of phone calls and e-mails if they got the info on web sites quicker.

 

[AlanB]

All of this going on and zero service alerts on the Empire Builder posted on the Amtrak site. Are you kidding me?

That's hardly surprising; Amtrak is notorious for not getting timely info up on its website regarding disruptions. This has been a huge criticism for years. They've been a bit better of late at getting something up, although often not until the problem is several hours old, if not a day old. And that's better because they never used to get anything up most times.

But still it's not uncommon to learn about service disruptions faster from commuter service info, newspapers, and even the freight RR's themselves, before learning about it from Amtrak via the website.

They would save themselves a lot of phone calls and e-mails if they got the info on web sites quicker.

Well I'm not sure that I'd advocate giving up the phone calls and emails no matter what. First, it's just good customer service to do that. Second, not everyone goes to the Amtrak website with any regularity. Third, in this particular case, not everyone riding the EB in the next few days is probably even aware that there is a flooding issue.

But all that said, there is still no reason that a notice can't be posted in a timely manner on the website. I could format one in probably less than 10 minutes and get it posted, if only I had access and the info, and I'm far from an expert at HTML programming.

 

[ray828]

Replying to my own post with an update that is good news for most EB passengers... I just received an e-mail that said the following:
As a result of Flood Stages, the Empire Builder is expected to detour missing stops in Grand Forks, ND; Devils Lake, ND; and Rugby, ND.

I was told that the EB schedule is not yet posted for my travel dates (departing 3/26, returning 3/29) but that the above detour is how the EB is running east and west right now. This service alert is not yet posted on the Amtrak website. I just checked. I do note that the information provided is silent on Fargo.

The Empire Builder will still have to cross the Red River at Fargo, but this is actually a shorter route than the standard one. Hey, you're going to get some rare mileage! I'm not sure if the Empire Builder has been on this route since 1997.

Glad to hear it's shorter, though the fact that it is a route not often traveled is not of much benefit since it travels through that area in the dark of night.

Just wondering, but how long would the service stop be in Minot now that the Empire Builder is skipping those three stations in North Dakota? I assuming that they will have to wait to depart at the advertised time and as mentioned above the new detour route is shorter.

 

[Ispolkom]

Just wondering, but how long would the service stop be in Minot now that the Empire Builder is skipping those three stations in North Dakota? I assuming that they will have to wait to depart at the advertised time and as mentioned above the new detour route is shorter.

I'd imagine that the west-bound Empire Builder would already be pretty late when it reaches Minot, having gone slowly through high-water areas, so the traveler wouldn't have longer stop to sample Minot's fleshpots. (For what it's worth, Minot's red light district was conveniently located a short walk up the hill south of the Amtrak (former Great Northern) station. It was cleaned up in the 1950s, and now is the site of an Assembly of God church, the blood bank, and Minot's only Starbucks.)

Good news for Fargo, maybe. A crest prediction has been lowered upstream at Wahpeton. This might been a lower crest in Fargo. On the other hand, they're now expecting more snow to fall in Fargo than I saw predicted this morning. The weather service is keeping to their 39-41 ft crest prediction. Full story is here.

 

[ray828]

I wonder how much longer the Empire Builder can cross in Fargo. I've read that the red river is expected to break a record when it crests. Here is the story.

http://www.startribune.com/local/41822192....D3aiUeyc+D3aUUr

 

[Guest]

You would think that the BNSF bridge over the Red River would be high enough to avoid the flood waters if Amtrak predicts using

the route for the next couple of weeks.

 

[Guest]

Here is anther update from BNSF

03/25/2009

Update Report: Flooding in Minnesota and North Dakota (Red River Valley)

As mentioned in a Service Advisory on March 23, 2009, BNSF is experiencing flooding throughout the Red River Valley region. Even though we are able to get most of the trains through the area, there may be specific industries we are not able to serve because of the high waters. Also, BNSF is developing numerous reroute plans to help minimize the delays for our customers.

The attached map will illustrate the areas affected by the flooding. Photo shows flooding on the Hillsboro Subdivision. More detailed information on affected areas can be found below:

· Moorhead Subdivision (Breckenridge, MN to Moorhead, MN) will be in service later today.

· Grand Forks Subdivision (Grand Forks, ND to Cass Lake, MN) will be out of service until March 26.

· Humboldt, MN to Noyes, MN is out of service. We will not interchange traffic at Noyes to Canadian National (traffic may have an alternate route).

· Harwood, MN and Gardner, MN are out of service (Hillsboro Subdivision).

SD_ND_MN_rev2.jpgFlooding on the Hillsboro Subdivision 03-25-09.JPG

Customers may experience delays of 24 to 36 hours on shipments moving through these corridors.

If you have any questions, please contact BNSF Customer Support at 1-888-428-2673, option 4, option 3.

 

[jmbgeg]

Here is anther update from BNSF

03/25/2009

Update Report: Flooding in Minnesota and North Dakota (Red River Valley)

As mentioned in a Service Advisory on March 23, 2009, BNSF is experiencing flooding throughout the Red River Valley region. Even though we are able to get most of the trains through the area, there may be specific industries we are not able to serve because of the high waters. Also, BNSF is developing numerous reroute plans to help minimize the delays for our customers.

The attached map will illustrate the areas affected by the flooding. Photo shows flooding on the Hillsboro Subdivision. More detailed information on affected areas can be found below:

· Moorhead Subdivision (Breckenridge, MN to Moorhead, MN) will be in service later today.

· Grand Forks Subdivision (Grand Forks, ND to Cass Lake, MN) will be out of service until March 26.

· Humboldt, MN to Noyes, MN is out of service. We will not interchange traffic at Noyes to Canadian National (traffic may have an alternate route).

· Harwood, MN and Gardner, MN are out of service (Hillsboro Subdivision).

SD_ND_MN_rev2.jpgFlooding on the Hillsboro Subdivision 03-25-09.JPG

Customers may experience delays of 24 to 36 hours on shipments moving through these corridors.

If you have any questions, please contact BNSF Customer Support at 1-888-428-2673, option 4, option 3.

I spoke with Amtrak earlier this eveing and they said today's eastbound train 8 is on time and projected into Chicago on time on 3/27. That said, disclosure of impending problems is not their forte. This is my departure day, so I am crossing my fingers.

 

[PRR 60]

I spoke with Amtrak earlier this eveing and they said today's eastbound train 8 is on time and projected into Chicago on time on 3/27. That said, disclosure of impending problems is not their forte. This is my departure day, so I am crossing my fingers.

Good luck. Hope things work out.

 

[Ispolkom]

I spoke with Amtrak earlier this eveing and they said today's eastbound train 8 is on time and projected into Chicago on time on 3/27. That said, disclosure of impending problems is not their forte. This is my departure day, so I am crossing my fingers.

Good luck. Hope things work out.

I'd like to add my best wishes, as well.

I went to check to see what time Train #8 is expected in at St. Paul this morning. Amtrak.com gave me a service disruption warning. On the other hand, train #28 is expected to be 49 minutes late. Hmm. It makes me want to go to the station and see what shows up.

 

[MrFSS]

I went to check to see what time Train #8 is expected in at St. Paul this morning. Amtrak.com gave me a service disruption warning. On the other hand, train #28 is expected to be 49 minutes late. Hmm. It makes me want to go to the station and see what shows up.

Are you having, going to have, any high water issues in the Twin Cities area?

 

[George Harris]

Here is the link to the following for those that want to look at the pictures: http://domino.bnsf.com/website/updates.nsf...84007C016A?Open

03/25/2009
Update Report: Flooding in Minnesota and North Dakota (Red River Valley)

As mentioned in a Service Advisory on March 23, 2009, BNSF is experiencing flooding throughout the Red River Valley region. Even though we are able to get most of the trains through the area, there may be specific industries we are not able to serve because of the high waters. Also, BNSF is developing numerous reroute plans to help minimize the delays for our customers.

The attached map will illustrate the areas affected by the flooding. Photo shows flooding on the Hillsboro Subdivision. More detailed information on affected areas can be found below:

· Moorhead Subdivision (Breckenridge, MN to Moorhead, MN) will be in service later today.

· Grand Forks Subdivision (Grand Forks, ND to Cass Lake, MN) will be out of service until March 26.

· Humboldt, MN to Noyes, MN is out of service. We will not interchange traffic at Noyes to Canadian National (traffic may have an alternate route).

· Harwood, MN and Gardner, MN are out of service (Hillsboro Subdivision).

SD_ND_MN_rev2.jpgFlooding on the Hillsboro Subdivision 03-25-09.JPG

Customers may experience delays of 24 to 36 hours on shipments moving through these corridors

 

[George Harris]

Found the following news item on Minot ND TV web: http://www.kxmc.com/News/349280.asp

The meat of the message:

Flooding Halts Amtrak ServiceMar 24 2009 7:38PM

Amtrak will be detouring its Empire Builder because of the spring flooding.

That route change will keep it out of Rugby, Devils Lake and Grand Forks.

Those who were trying to arrive in those locations will be able to get off the train in either Minot or Fargo.

So: It will still be serving Fargo

 

[EB_OBS]

Well we left right on time today at 2:15pm CT. In a discussion with a transportation superintendent in Seattle, it appears we are still ok to run on the alternate route unfortunately though bypassing Devils Lake, Rugby and Grand Forks.

 

[Ispolkom]

I went to check to see what time Train #8 is expected in at St. Paul this morning. Amtrak.com gave me a service disruption warning. On the other hand, train #28 is expected to be 49 minutes late. Hmm. It makes me want to go to the station and see what shows up.

Are you having, going to have, any high water issues in the Twin Cities area?

No, not this year. We haven't (knock on wood) had significant spring floods since 2001.

Right now I doubt that train #8 will get through Fargo tonight. Here's a photo that shows one of the BNSF bridges (it's the old Northern Pacific Line, I think). The caption reads, "Bridges across the Red River, view facing west toward Fargo. To the right is the Center Avenue Bridge. To the left is a bridge for the BNSF Railroad. To the left, distant, is the Main Avenue Bridge. March 25, 2009. Red River stage (at Fargo): 36.6'." That picture was taken yesterday. The Red River has gone up 2-1/2 feet and is still rising. Perhaps there's a taller bridge across the Red River. I certainly hope so.

 

[George Harris]

To the left is a bridge for the BNSF Railroad. To the left, distant, is the Main Avenue Bridge. March 25, 2009. Red River stage (at Fargo): 36.6'." That picture was taken yesterday. The Red River has gone up 2-1/2 feet and is still rising.

Unless they are concerned about scour, there should be no problem. Also a factor in the speed of flow is whether there are trees and other heavy stuff being carried in the flood that might damage the bridge. In the picture the water looks to be around 3 feet to low steel. Even with water up to very close to the low steel, trains would probably be allowed to cross, but slow tiptoeing across.

 

[ray828]

Would a crest of 41ft put the red river over the b.n.s.f. bridge? I'm heading out on the Empire builder tomorrow from Chicago to Seattle and return. I hope it doesn't disrupt Amtrak.

 

[Ispolkom]

Would a crest of 41ft put the red river over the b.n.s.f. bridge? I'm heading out on the Empire builder tomorrow from Chicago to Seattle and return. I hope it doesn't disrupt Amtrak.

Now the National Weather Service has changed the flood crest prediction:

3/27 40.8

3/28 41.9

3/29 42.0

3/30 42.0

3/31 42.0

4/1 41.9

4/2 41.7

The discussion is pretty somber: "conditions on the Red River at Fargo have grown increasingly

dangerous over the past 24 hours. The river is currently approaching

record levels and showing no sign of slowing at this point. As the

river exceeds the previous record level... the relative uncertainty

in forecast models has increased significantly. Record flows upstream

of Fargo have produced unprecedented conditions on the Red River. Given

these factors... the river is expected to behave in ways never previously

observed. The crest forecast at Fargo is now expected to be between 41

and 42 feet by Saturday... but could potentially be as high as 43 feet...

and continue for 3 to 7 days."

As for the picture I linked to earlier today, the road bridge on the right is closed and, according to someone interviewed on Minnesota Public Radio, "water is running over it." The now-expected high is 5.5 feet higher than that shown in the picture.

The only open automobile bridge across the Red River is I-94, which isn't surprising as I believe the highest point in Fargo is an interstate overpass.

There are other railroad bridges in Fargo, but I have no information on them. My impression is, though that the central core of Fargo, where the train station is and where the Empire Builder usually crosses, is slightly higher than the rest of the city, which has to be a good thing.

I would have thought that the recent cold weather (it's supposed to get down to single digits tonight) would have slowed the river's rise, but it's obviously a terribly complex system.

 

[ray828]

Thanks for the post! I also hope that the bridge is higher so Amtrak can complete the route without a bus bridge scenario.

 

[Cascadia]

Good luck to those of you who are on the EB or have trips planned in the near future. Guess you'll have some stories to tell no matter what happens. Here's to an uneventful trip. Post and tell us how it went!

 

[anir dendroica]

Predicted flood crest: 42.0 feet

http://weather.hamweather.com/rivers/gauge/FGON8.html

Water surface elevation at BNSF bridge at 42-foot stage: ~903.5 feet

http://media.cityoffargo.com/maps/Engineer...tions%20(2).pdf

*note that the mainline ex-NP bridge used by the detours is between Main Ave. and NP Ave. and is not listed here - the listed "BNSF bridge" is the ex-GN crossing that the Builder normally uses*

Elevation of BNSF tracks: ~906 feet

http://media.cityoffargo.com/maps/Engineer...d%20Ave%20S.pdf

It will be close...

 

[Ispolkom]

Predicted flood crest: 42.0 feethttp://weather.hamweather.com/rivers/gauge/FGON8.html

Water surface elevation at BNSF bridge at 42-foot stage: ~903.5 feet

http://media.cityoffargo.com/maps/Engineer...tions%20(2).pdf

*note that the mainline ex-NP bridge used by the detours is between Main Ave. and NP Ave. and is not listed here - the listed "BNSF bridge" is the ex-GN crossing that the Builder normally uses*

Elevation of BNSF tracks: ~906 feet

http://media.cityoffargo.com/maps/Engineer...d%20Ave%20S.pdf

It will be close...

Thanks for finding real information. I had not imagined that the former Great Northern bridge was that much higher. It certainly confirms my old prejudices in favor of the Great Northern, the result of growing up along its old main line.

As usual, I was too pessimistic. Train #8 is expected in St. Paul 2 hours 42 minutes late today. Late, but it did get through!

 

[George Harris]

Predicted flood crest: 42.0 feethttp://weather.hamweather.com/rivers/gauge/FGON8.html

Water surface elevation at BNSF bridge at 42-foot stage: ~903.5 feet

http://media.cityoffargo.com/maps/Engineer...tions%20(2).pdf

*note that the mainline ex-NP bridge used by the detours is between Main Ave. and NP Ave. and is not listed here - the listed "BNSF bridge" is the ex-GN crossing that the Builder normally uses*

Elevation of BNSF tracks: ~906 feet

http://media.cityoffargo.com/maps/Engineer...d%20Ave%20S.pdf

It will be close...

Uhh, are you sure about that 906 feet elevation for the tracks. Looking at the map it may be 901 feet. The one lable on a contour of 905 may not apply to the one near the track. It may even be in error, as there is no 900 label appearing between the one black contour line between the one labeled 890 and the one labeled 905, and there should be two.

What is more interesting is the magnitude of this flood. If you go to the other sheet you linked, it shows the 100 year flood elevation as being at 899.87 feet and the 500 year flood elevation being at 903.21 feet at the BNSF bridge.

Sooo, this flood exceeds the theoretical 500 year interval high water elevation. Normal design of most roads and bridges is to clear the 100 year flood, or sometimes even less. Sometimes for major structures the term "Maximum Credible Flood" is used, and that is usually somewhere in the vicinity of the 500 year elevation.

Just for information, these nature of these designations is somewhat misleading. What they really mean is not that the 100 year flood will occur only once in a century, but that every year you have a 1.0% chance of having a flood up to the "100 year" elevation and an 0.2% chance of having a flood up to the "500 year elevation" Thanks to a series of hurricanes, I beleive it was in the 1960's the James River at Richmond Virginia had 3, or maybe more floods that exceeded the "100 year" elevation in about a 5 year period.

 

[EB_OBS]

Over an hour of that late arrival time was because someone was put off in an ambulance about 10 miles outside of Minot last night. Then the resulting slow orders through Fargo attributed to the rest.

The conductors out of St. Cloud did have to dogcatch the builder today too.

 

[PetalumaLoco]

Grand Forks floodcam.

View of Red River from downtown Grand Forks near DeMers Avenue facing the Sorlie Bridge and downtown East Grand Forks.

Decent picture even at night.

Fargo floodcam.

The camera is located on the 7th floor of the US Bank building in downtown Moorhead facing downtown Fargo to the west.

This cam is out as I post this, they are hoping to get it back on line.

There is a rail bridge in this view, they say, but I don't know if it's the one used by the EB.