For Coach Passengers - What's the boarding stress level?

[Everydaymatters]

We all know CUS is totally insane for coach passengers boarding trains.

Seattle is nice - no stress there.

At Kingman, AZ the SWC stops late at night and there's no stress there, except that the so-called depot is a disgrace.

I don't recall Albuquerque being a problem, although it's been many years.

Same with LAX - that was 20 years ago, but it seemed ok.

WUS isn't too bad.

How is it in Boston? New York? SF? And all the other stations?

Are there one, or two, or three things that Amtrak could implement at all stations that would make boarding easier and less stressful? I'm referring specifically to coach passengers who don't have the benefit of a first class lounge.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Boston and New York coach and sleepers all board in the same lines. The only difference is that sleepers and first class Acela can stay in the lounge, but must move to the boarding lines when the train is called and stand with everybody else. Boston has such little foot traffic, even during rush hour, boarding a train is a breeze-- New York is like a science. They get long lines, but the longest I have ever had to wait was ten minutes. They try and make sure the time between when the boarding track is announced and the time the train is given an all clear is around fifteen minutes for a train not terminating in New York, and 20 or so for a train originating.

And as for the claim "We all know CUS is totally insane" I don't agree. It is actually rather well laid out in procedure and execution of those procedures. People complain about lines in New York too, they complain about lines everywhere. Point-blank, humans don't like lines!

Does that mean the system is perfect? No. But the longest you'll have to wait in a line at CUS is twenty minutes. The clock starts when the conductor tells the boarding managers that its okay to release the coach pax, and the time the gate closes. The reason there are lines that wait longer than that are because people start standing in a line up to half hour before a single person is ever going to get through. They don't realize its a futile endeavor to get in line like that-- it won't make Amtrak board them any earlier. I have enjoyed sitting back while I watch a line of people complain and rant-- I wait for the line to be boarded and then walk up to the gate myself, and when on board, guess what, I find myself seated next to somebody that had waited an hour.

 

[Neil_M]

The reason there are lines that wait longer than that are because people start standing in a line up to half hour before a single person is ever going to get through. They don't realize its a futile endeavor to get in line like that-- it won't make Amtrak board them any earlier. I have enjoyed sitting back while I watch a line of people complain and rant-- I wait for the line to be boarded and then walk up to the gate myself, and when on board, guess what, I find myself seated next to somebody that had waited an hour.

That's the thing, stay sitting till you see the end of the queue then amble out, no point in being a sheepie just because all the other passengers are!

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

That's the thing, stay sitting till you see the end of the queue then amble out, no point in being a sheepie just because all the other passengers are!

Exactly. You're going to get a seat, and no seat is really any better than any other one. Somehow I wonder if half the people in the line believe that "reserved" coach seating is "unreserved"...

 

[the_traveler]

And as for the claim "We all know CUS is totally insane" I don't agree. It is actually rather well laid out in procedure and execution of those procedures. People complain about lines in New York too, they complain about lines everywhere.

I do agree that CUS is bad. Basically for the small(ish) waiting room for 3 or 4 LD trains that depart at about the same time. I also don't like NYP because of the mad rush to the gate as soon as they post the track number 10 minutes before departure. I also don't care for PDX where you have to stand in line to get a seat assignment and then stand in another line to board.

Most other stations are not too bad.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

PDX and SEA operate the same way.. very uptight and hard-line. They act like they prevent mad rushes and in the end they don't. SEA, interestingly enough, is featured by the OP as having NO stress. Hardly the case...

My favorite is NYP. SEA and PDX are my least favorites.

 

[JayPea]

I guess it's all in one's perception. I've boarded coach in seven locations: Chicago, Portland, Seattle, Spokane, Eugene, OR, Champaign, IL, and Bloomington, IL. The last four are non-factors; just a small handful of passengers at each stop. Chicago was by far the worst and that had less to do with the station personnel than the passengers themselves. They tried to maintain order but it was impossible. All it was was a mass of humanity, all pushing, shoving, and mangling each other for a seat. Totally unnecessary, in my opinion. Seattle and Portland, however, were much more calm and orderly, though at Portland, the instructions given to coach passengers were confusing, to say the least, and many passengers who didn't understand them correctly found themselves in the wrong lines and the wrong coaches.

 

[Rafi]

Everyone's anecdotal experiences are inherently different, but speaking from my own, I'd agree that Chicago and NYP are especially stressful for those who may not be as familiar with the "dance" as some of the members around here may be. I know I always, always recommend a red cap for my parents whenever they're leaving from NYP. Chicago would fall into that same category.

Frankly, I think it's a dangerous game to funnel all of your east-west national travel through one hub with an ever increasing national interest in rail. That's just my opinion, but I think Amtrak needs to at least look in the long term at having another east-west hub, like say, St. Louis, especially given the new station and First Class Lounge (I apologize if I'm repeating myself to some of the tenured members around here). Yes, that means a new route (probably a split of a daily Cardinal at Indy to become a St. Louis Cardinal with service to STL and KCY), but again, I'm talking long term. Such a service would almost certainly siphon passengers away from Chicago connections; you'd connect with the City and Illinois Services in Effingham (same-station transfer; platform already exists), the Eagle and Missouri services in St. Louis, and if you can get it to Kansas City, then you connect with the Chief. I don't know what the track condition or freight traffic is like between Indy and St. Louis, but on paper it seems like a good way to get some of the crowding out of Chicago, get people to Illinois and Missouri destinations earlier, pad late connections to/from the west coast trains, and give the Cardinal some more meaning in the national network.

Rafi

 

[AlanB]

New York is like a science. They get long lines, but the longest I have ever had to wait was ten minutes. They try and make sure the time between when the boarding track is announced and the time the train is given an all clear is around fifteen minutes for a train not terminating in New York, and 20 or so for a train originating.

NY never puts up track numbers 20 minutes before departure. In fact many times the bloody train isn't even in the station 20 minutes before departure. At best, they'll put up a track number 15 minutes before departure for a long distance train and I've seen 10 minutes only many times. Any other train goes up 10 minutes before without exception.

 

[AlanB]

Frankly, I think it's a dangerous game to funnel all of your east-west national travel through one hub with an ever increasing national interest in rail. That's just my opinion, but I think Amtrak needs to at least look in the long term at having another east-west hub, like say, St. Louis, especially given the new station and First Class Lounge (I apologize if I'm repeating myself to some of the tenured members around here). Yes, that means a new route (probably a split of a daily Cardinal at Indy to become a St. Louis Cardinal with service to STL and KCY), but again, I'm talking long term. Such a service would almost certainly siphon passengers away from Chicago connections; you'd connect with the City and Illinois Services in Effingham (same-station transfer; platform already exists), the Eagle and Missouri services in St. Louis, and if you can get it to Kansas City, then you connect with the Chief. I don't know what the track condition or freight traffic is like between Indy and St. Louis, but on paper it seems like a good way to get some of the crowding out of Chicago, get people to Illinois and Missouri destinations earlier, pad late connections to/from the west coast trains, and give the Cardinal some more meaning in the national network.

Restoring a daily through running Sunset ORL-LAX would also help to take a bit of the strain off of CUS.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

New York is like a science. They get long lines, but the longest I have ever had to wait was ten minutes. They try and make sure the time between when the boarding track is announced and the time the train is given an all clear is around fifteen minutes for a train not terminating in New York, and 20 or so for a train originating.

NY never puts up track numbers 20 minutes before departure. In fact many times the bloody train isn't even in the station 20 minutes before departure. At best, they'll put up a track number 15 minutes before departure for a long distance train and I've seen 10 minutes only many times. Any other train goes up 10 minutes before without exception.

Perhaps I was unclear. I said from when they put the track number up to when they have everybody aboard and wait for an all clear is, at most 20 minutes. In anecdotal terms: From the second you see a track number come up on the big board to the time the train leaves the station is, at most 15-20 minutes.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I'm in favour of a restored National Limited, but the trackwork would need to be heavily improved.

 

[AlanB]

New York is like a science. They get long lines, but the longest I have ever had to wait was ten minutes. They try and make sure the time between when the boarding track is announced and the time the train is given an all clear is around fifteen minutes for a train not terminating in New York, and 20 or so for a train originating.

NY never puts up track numbers 20 minutes before departure. In fact many times the bloody train isn't even in the station 20 minutes before departure. At best, they'll put up a track number 15 minutes before departure for a long distance train and I've seen 10 minutes only many times. Any other train goes up 10 minutes before without exception.

Perhaps I was unclear. I said from when they put the track number up to when they have everybody aboard and wait for an all clear is, at most 20 minutes. In anecdotal terms: From the second you see a track number come up on the big board to the time the train leaves the station is, at most 15-20 minutes.

Maybe I'm somehow missing something here, but I'm telling you that's not true. From the time you see a track number go up on the board and the train is rolling, it's 10 minutes no more. If an Acela is due to depart at 12 noon, the track number goes up at 11:50 AM and that train is rolling at noon, assuming that it didn't arrive late.

Sometimes they give the LD's 15 minutes from number on the board to wheels turning, but not always.

I've never seen Amtrak give 20 minutes from track number on a board to wheels turning at NYP.

The same is true for the LIRR and NJT also, it's 10 minutes from posting the track number to wheels turning.

 

[Rafi]

Restoring a daily through running Sunset ORL-LAX would also help to take a bit of the strain off of CUS.

Yup, I knew I should have mentioned that. Yeah, the ORL-LAX option would help, to be sure. Comparatively, though (and I admittedly haven't analyzed the numbers), I have to imagine that compared to the passengers that would be heading west on a Sunset Transcon is a trickle when compared to the flood of people disembarking off of the Capitol and LSL in Chicago. Given that the Cardinal serves NY through DC, it could present another option for those folks who would normally take one of the other two trains, and also serve as a faster connection for folks coming from the Carolinas on the Silvers. Food for thought.

Rafi

 

[caravanman]

I enjoy the rich gamut of folk one meets in coach class, the same has to be said of the wainting areas.. I have met some prize nutters in Chicago while waiting for my coach ride. One guy who seemed to have the whole collection of yellow pages phone books as light reading.. he asked me to save his page while he went to the bathroom, simply never came back! Who knows? I met a guy who was a "cage fighter", a woman just out of prison for wounding someone, a young lad who had been forced to leave home by a wicked step mum.. Mind you, I seem to recall HE was the cage fighter. One Amish gent with his wife, who told me he was going to a radon mine to sit underground and breath in the "good gas" All human life is there, and I for one am truly thankfull ..

Ed B)

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

New York is like a science. They get long lines, but the longest I have ever had to wait was ten minutes. They try and make sure the time between when the boarding track is announced and the time the train is given an all clear is around fifteen minutes for a train not terminating in New York, and 20 or so for a train originating.

NY never puts up track numbers 20 minutes before departure. In fact many times the bloody train isn't even in the station 20 minutes before departure. At best, they'll put up a track number 15 minutes before departure for a long distance train and I've seen 10 minutes only many times. Any other train goes up 10 minutes before without exception.

Perhaps I was unclear. I said from when they put the track number up to when they have everybody aboard and wait for an all clear is, at most 20 minutes. In anecdotal terms: From the second you see a track number come up on the big board to the time the train leaves the station is, at most 15-20 minutes.

Maybe I'm somehow missing something here, but I'm telling you that's not true. From the time you see a track number go up on the board and the train is rolling, it's 10 minutes no more. If an Acela is due to depart at 12 noon, the track number goes up at 11:50 AM and that train is rolling at noon, assuming that it didn't arrive late.

Sometimes they give the LD's 15 minutes from number on the board to wheels turning, but not always.

I've never seen Amtrak give 20 minutes from track number on a board to wheels turning at NYP.

The same is true for the LIRR and NJT also, it's 10 minutes from posting the track number to wheels turning.

Okay, I wasn't timing it-- 10 to 15 minutes is what I called 15 to 20 minutes. Either way, you push my contention that in spite of complaints, the lines move very quickly in NYP.

 

[Everydaymatters]

Boarding Manager??? The things I don't know never ceases to amaze me. Where is he? How does he decide when to have the passengers board?

I like the idea of making St. Louis another hub. Makes a lot of sense.

But working with what Amtrak does have right now, what procedures could be implemented to make boarding more streamlined?

 

[Long Train Runnin']

I find boarding Amtrak a dream compared to boarding a saturday night NJT commuter train. IIRC when I took the Cardinal they called it 10 minutes early and I was sitting in my sleeping car 5 minutes later without a red cap. Granted it was 6:50 on a Sunday Morning....

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Boarding Manager??? The things I don't know never ceases to amaze me. Where is he? How does he decide when to have the passengers board?
I like the idea of making St. Louis another hub. Makes a lot of sense.

But working with what Amtrak does have right now, what procedures could be implemented to make boarding more streamlined?

"Boarding Manager" is a term I use to describe the employee who is in charge of boarding the entire concourse. He's a step above all of the general boarding crew but below the station master... somebody more on the inside could probably tell you his or her official position.

But in reality, nobody on the station has any real control over deciding when a train is ready for boarding-- that responsibility falls to the train's head conductor.

There is a set method of boarding pax. Boiled down bare it goes like this:

The train is moved into the station.

The OBS crew finishes stocking and turning down the train.

The running crew run checks on all major systems to make sure the train is safe and ready to board.

About 45 minutes prior to departure the conductor or the asst. conductor goes into the Lounge and takes all the sleepers' tickets.

About 30 minutes prior to departure the conductor calls the station crew and tells them he is ready to board sleepers. The station crew in the lounge direct the sleepers out of the side door.

About 25 minutes prior to departure the conductor calls the station crew and asks for redcap assisted or special needs coach pax. (Ideally, no line in coach should form earlier than this.)

About 20 minutes (sometimes 15 minutes) prior to departure the conductor calls the station crew and tells them he is ready for all coach pax. In other words, general boarding.

As coach pax are boarded they are asked their destination by the conductors/coach attendants who assign them seat checks and cars based on destination.

About 5 minutes prior to departure the boarding gates are closed. The conductor checks the train, making sure all doors are closed and all departments are ready for departure. Sometimes (if not always) there is a final test of the brakes and the conductor calls the station indicating the platform is clear and the train is ready to depart on indication.

Just pick up a scanner, all of this is on open frequency.

What fouls up this method is, not Amtrak or station staff, but pax themselves. People shoving, cutting, moving into and out of line... Boarding at CUS is only stressful to those who make it stressful to themselves and others. If they realized that no amount of bad behavior will get them a better seat or anything then everybody could calmly sit and wait until that general boarding announcement. Of course, there is a lack of seating, however this is no excuse for some of the acts of distaste I have witnessed.

I happen to love watching people stand in a line for half an hour only to hear the general boarding announcement and realize that the line they blindly walked into wasn't moving.... because nobody was getting on the damn train.

 

[AlanB]

Boarding Manager??? The things I don't know never ceases to amaze me. Where is he? How does he decide when to have the passengers board?
I like the idea of making St. Louis another hub. Makes a lot of sense.

But working with what Amtrak does have right now, what procedures could be implemented to make boarding more streamlined?

"Boarding Manager" is a term I use to describe the employee who is in charge of boarding the entire concourse. He's a step above all of the general boarding crew but below the station master... somebody more on the inside could probably tell you his or her official position.

But in reality, nobody on the station has any real control over deciding when a train is ready for boarding-- that responsibility falls to the train's head conductor.

Sort of, but not quite right. In Chicago it's sort of a mutual decision between the conductor and the Glass House. The person in the Glass House is responsible for coordinating everything that happens to a train sitting in Union Station. When mechanical, electrical, comissary, and other's release the train to the Glass House, they in turn calls the conductor to confirm with him/her that he also concurs with those departments and that he/she believes that the train is ready for passengers.

The Glass House then calls the gate and the lounge to arrange the boarding of the train.

About 45 minutes prior to departure the conductor or the asst. conductor goes into the Lounge and takes all the sleepers' tickets.

Actually only a few conductors do this. Most trains do not see the conductor coming to the lounge in Chicago to collect tickets. I have seen cases where at crew change points along the way, the conductors about to take control of the train will collect all tickets from the passengers also waiting at that station. But otherwise, Chicago is the only originating station where I've seen a conductor come into a lounge or a station for that matter to collect tickets.

About 30 minutes prior to departure the conductor calls the station crew and tells them he is ready to board sleepers. The station crew in the lounge direct the sleepers out of the side door. About 25 minutes prior to departure the conductor calls the station crew and asks for redcap assisted or special needs coach pax. (Ideally, no line in coach should form earlier than this.)

About 20 minutes (sometimes 15 minutes) prior to departure the conductor calls the station crew and tells them he is ready for all coach pax. In other words, general boarding.

Already dealt with this above. The Glass House deals with calling for boarding.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

only one time in Chicago was my ticket collected before boarding the train and that was for 421 the texas eagle. all other times a gate keeper looks at your ticket and will circle something on it with a black marker.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Actually only a few conductors do this. Most trains do not see the conductor coming to the lounge in Chicago to collect tickets. I have seen cases where at crew change points along the way, the conductors about to take control of the train will collect all tickets from the passengers also waiting at that station. But otherwise, Chicago is the only originating station where I've seen a conductor come into a lounge or a station for that matter to collect tickets.

I was in the lounge for over three hours and saw conductors from the EB, SWC, TE, and CZ in the lounge asking for tickets. On the second day, conductors from the CL came in, as well as once again the EB and CZ. I was in and out of the lounge on the second day, so I may have missed the other trains.

I'd hate to think I was in the lounges on a "good day"...

 

[Ispolkom]

I have seen cases where at crew change points along the way, the conductors about to take control of the train will collect all tickets from the passengers also waiting at that station. But otherwise, Chicago is the only originating station where I've seen a conductor come into a lounge or a station for that matter to collect tickets.

Really? I thought that conductors at crew change points *always* collected tickets in the station. Now that I think about it, though, I'm only thinking of St. Paul and Minot, where conductors come up with elaborate boarding systems ranging from boarding by destination "and now everyone for Stanley!" to the more arcane boarding by group size. Honest. One Christmas I grabbed a stranger (well, actually he turned out to have gone to high school with one of my sisters) to board early by claiming we were a group of 3 going to Minot. Hey, it allowed Mrs. Ispolkom and I to find two seats to sit together. I bought our ringer a beer in the lounge.

But reading this forum, I often am impressed by how much I don't know, because I don't pay attention. For decades, I've vaguely noticed that the westbound Empire Builder often stops in Gavin Yard, just east of Minot. Sitting back in the Portland coach that I always seem to end up in and not ever having a scanner with me, without ALC Rail Writer I would never have known that that stop was for refueling, especially since I've often seen the fuel truck waiting at the station, just 2-3 miles further on.

 

[AlanB]

Actually only a few conductors do this. Most trains do not see the conductor coming to the lounge in Chicago to collect tickets. I have seen cases where at crew change points along the way, the conductors about to take control of the train will collect all tickets from the passengers also waiting at that station. But otherwise, Chicago is the only originating station where I've seen a conductor come into a lounge or a station for that matter to collect tickets.

I was in the lounge for over three hours and saw conductors from the EB, SWC, TE, and CZ in the lounge asking for tickets. On the second day, conductors from the CL came in, as well as once again the EB and CZ. I was in and out of the lounge on the second day, so I may have missed the other trains.

I'd hate to think I was in the lounges on a "good day"...

Well maybe Amtrak has changed the procedure and is now requiring all conductors to do that. But as recently as last October on my way to/from the Gathering in LA, I had zero tickets lifted in the lounge. And only the condcutor for the Eagle lifted tickets that day going westbound in the lounge. I don't believe that we made it back to Chicago before the Westbounds left for that day, but again none of the eastbound conductors collected tickets.

Over the years, I think that I've probably had maybe 4 or 5 tickets lifted in the lounge, and again in most cases tickets were not collected for most other trains.

 

[AlanB]

I have seen cases where at crew change points along the way, the conductors about to take control of the train will collect all tickets from the passengers also waiting at that station. But otherwise, Chicago is the only originating station where I've seen a conductor come into a lounge or a station for that matter to collect tickets.

Really? I thought that conductors at crew change points *always* collected tickets in the station. Now that I think about it, though, I'm only thinking of St. Paul and Minot, where conductors come up with elaborate boarding systems ranging from boarding by destination "and now everyone for Stanley!" to the more arcane boarding by group size. Honest. One Christmas I grabbed a stranger (well, actually he turned out to have gone to high school with one of my sisters) to board early by claiming we were a group of 3 going to Minot. Hey, it allowed Mrs. Ispolkom and I to find two seats to sit together. I bought our ringer a beer in the lounge.

I haven't boarded many trains at crew change points, in fact I think that I've only done that twice. So I wasn't about to issue a blanket statement stating that they always do that. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that they all do lift tickets in the station at all crew change points, but again I don't have enough of a first hand sampling to say for sure.