Much to the surprise of many Central Floridians, Governor Scott approved SunRail. They anticipate the first phase (of about 40 miles, I think) will be completed in 2014. 
Florida Governor Approves SunRail
- Thread starter pennyk
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:hi: Good news Penny!Much to the surprise of many Central Floridians, Governor Scott approved SunRail. They anticipate the first phase (of about 40 miles, I think) will be completed in 2014.
Wonder if he and his Political Henchmen/Handlers have been watching the elections that the T-Pubs are losing in other states and the firestorms happening in Wisconson and Ohio over the Idiotic attempts to deprive citizens of their Rights and the cancellation of Rail Projects, even the Wisconson Moron Gov. is starting to take notice and has approved some Rail funding! Must be Elections coming up next year? :help:
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Ryan
Court Jester
All he had to look at was his absolutely abysmal approval ratings.
http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1284.xml?ReleaseID=1604&What=&strArea=;&strTime=0
It got so bad, that he posted a letter on his website for people to send to their newspapers to try and drum up some phoney support for his regime.
http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1284.xml?ReleaseID=1604&What=&strArea=;&strTime=0
(bold mine)
It got so bad, that he posted a letter on his website for people to send to their newspapers to try and drum up some phoney support for his regime.
I am still amazed that people voted for him. :wacko:
Nexis4Jersey
Service Attendant
I must say this is worse then the HSR project and nothing more then a CSX handout.
Devil's Advocate
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Agreed. I want modern and efficient passenger rail as much as the next guy, but this plan sounds like just another example of poorly reasoned corporate socialism funded by the ever more disillusioned taxpayer.
MattW
Conductor
Why does it sound that way to you two? I am quite looking forward to seeing this project go forward and I live in the next state up! Granted, I'd like to see weekend service, but assuming they hold to their plans it should be a reasonably well done rail system both in aesthetics (browse through the stations pdf file) and in scheduling. I haven't seen what equipment they're planning, but I've heard both the tried and true (if death trap) MP36 with Bombardier bi-levels, and some sort of DMU (originally CRC, but dunno if their "successor" is still in business).
I love how people make claims with no basis or serious facts to support things.
This deal includes about $400 Million for CSX in total, barely 1/4th of all money involved.
To start with, CSX gets $150 Million for the land, track, and signals over the 61.5 miles of Class IV track that Florida is buying. That works out to $2.46M per mile. At the time this deal was put to paper, BNSF sold 42 miles of Class II track to the State of Washington for $107 Million or $2.55M per mile. And the line in Washington was all single track with only a few sidings. Much of the CSX line is double track and in much better shape. So technically it could be said that CSX is taking a slight bath on this.
Another $209 Million going to CSX will be used to build 5 new brides on the S line, the line that will be used by CSX instead of the A line which they're selling. Building new bridges so as to close crossings benefits the drivers in those areas who won't have to stop and wait for a parade of freight trains. It doesn't benefit CSX. CSX doesn't care if people have to stop and wait for their trains. By the way, even though this money was included as part of the overall plan for Sunrail, Florida was going to do this no matter what. AFAIK, some of this work is already in progress at this time. I haven't gone checking, but it was supposed to have started last year, and it would have gone forward even if the Sunrail deal fell through.
About the biggest true "corporate welfare" item would be the $32M the CSX is getting to help them relocated operations from Taft Yard to a new intermodal facility south/west of Orlando. Since they won't be able to get to Taft Yard during the day due to commuter operations, Taft is located in Orlando off of the A line, it really is only fair to help CSX out with this move. After all CSX doesn't have to sell the tracks. And they could have charged far more for those tracks than they did.
Yes, I know that it's fun to hate the big bad corporations. But CSX really isn't the bad guy this time. They are getting less than fair market value for their property and a little assistance to move a yard that they won't effectively be able to use anymore.
Spokker
Lead Service Attendant
- Joined
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SunRail is a complete waste of money. How this was approved but not Florida high speed rail is beyond my comprehension. Florida high speed rail actually had a chance to make money, which is what I thought these Republicans were all about. Yet these people support one of the worst commuter rail projects in existence.
I don't get it.
I don't get it.
Nexis4Jersey
Service Attendant
Because Mica gets $$$ from CSX , thus this is approved.... Look on the plus side , now when Mica tries to dismantle Amtrak due to being inefficient, we have this to throw in his face.
Also understand that Governor Scott is a politician, and he may have felt some serious heat over the rejection of the previous rail funding. He was smart in getting this rail project underway. Good for him. We should welcome his support of this effort. Maybe we can get pols like him to listen to us instead of those who oppose funding for rail.
Devil's Advocate
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I understand that $400 million may be chump change to the folks along the NEC, but to the rest of us that's big enough to consider important.
So CSX is actually ignoring their supposed duty to their shareholders and taking a bath on this sale. Why? If they didn't think the offer was in their best interest they could easily kill the deal or just lobby for better terms. The basis for your conclusion is an unrelated sale between another railroad and another government some two thousand miles away on the opposite corner of the country. Unfortunately these figures you've used only work if you can somehow separate this portion of the plan from all the other agreements, which I don't believe you can. In which case maybe we're looking at something more in the range of $6.5 million per mile all told. Now how good of a deal is that?
We move from your claiming CSX are foolish enough to be taken to the cleaners by politicians they themselves have funded and lobbied to your claiming CSX doesn't benefit at all from fewer grade crossings. Again I disagree. I believe that when there are fewer crossings there are likely to be fewer collisions. And that when there are fewer collisions there are likely to be fewer legal battles, fewer investigations, fewer regulatory inquires, and fewer repairs required. In my view that benefits CSX just as much as it benefits everyone else. Except that CSX is apparently not paying their fair share.
No, it's not about CSX being the "big bad corporation." It's about a political system that favors public transit only when it benefits a major contributor. I think Florida's relationship with passenger rail has made it clear that's how things work. And no, it is not very fun watching American taxpayers being fleeced into bankruptcy. Or watching fellow Americans attempt to invert the situation and claim that the most powerful interests involved are the ones who are actually being victimized by the lowly taxpayers. It's actually rather troubling to tell you the truth.
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He felt a lot of heat of the HSR decision. He got taken to court by his Senate and he was rebuked by the Senate. And that rebuke came from 16 Republicans and 10 Democrats, together they formed a veto proof majority.
Like it or not, it's chump change even in this deal. It represents 1/4th of the total expendatures.
Being payed a fair market value for something is not corporate welfare no matter how much you'd like to spin it. And that was my point. They could have demanded far more and did not. Why they did or didn't has no bearing on the fact that they didn't charge the state tons more. They are giving up something that they already own, so that when they do use it they now get to pay for the right to use it.
And it's very easy to separate the numbers. It's spelled out quite accurately in the paperwork.
CSX has very few lawsuits, and in most cases wins them anyhow, since the motorist is almost always at fault. In fact, last year there were 4 grade crossing accidents on CSX tracks, and 3 of them involved Amtrak trains. So there was only 1 accident involving CSX. However, I will still grant you that there is a slight benefit to them because of this. But the major benefit is to the citizens in those counties who will no longer have to sit and wait at a crossing. That benfit far outweighs any benefit to CSX no matter how much you'd like to spin it the other way.
Look, if you want to debate the wisdom of Sunrail, that's one thing. But the last thing that is happening here is that CSX is fleecing the taxpayers. In fact, even if Sunrail had been stopped by the Governor, the $209M to close those crossings would have still taken place and CSX would now still own the A line tracks and have greater flexibility to move its freight. Now if they have a derailment on the S line, they basically shut down until they can repair the damage. There is no alternative anymore, short of trying to slip in a few extra freight trains at night on the A line.
Instead the Gov approved things, so CSX gets a fair market to perhaps slighly lower than market price for its line. And that leaves the only thing that could really be considered corporate welfare in this deal, the $32M for moving the rail yard.
Mica wanted Florida's HSR just as much as he wanted Sunrail; yet he couldn't force the Governor's hand on that one.
Devil's Advocate
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So if some figure is 25% of some other figure then it is no longer significant. Like it or not, that makes absolutely no logical sense.
I simply don't agree with you that SunRail as currently envisioned is a reasonable case for the level of taxpayer money being spent. Nor do I agree that asking "fair market value" for something automatically makes it a reasonable investment for taxpayers. Nor do I agree that CSX is getting the short end of the stick in a sale for which they hold final approval. These seem like pretty reasonable positions to me. Maybe you're just so married to the idea that Florida needs more passenger rail that you're unwilling to look at the funding as anything but money well spent.
Yes, you can separate the numbers mathematically but if they cannot be broken into a separate sale with a separate approval process then it's a purely theoretical construct.
These bridges are not going to last one year. Depending on the construction it could be on the order of several decades. Over the next thirty or forty years I think there is a very good chance CSX will have materially benefited from having fewer grade crossings thanks to Florida taxpayers. I'm not against the taxpayers paying part of the bill, I just don't think they should get stuck with all of it. Why is that so hard for you to agree with?
If investing in SunRail as current planned is unwise then getting the best possible deal on the ROW does not change that. Despite your conclusions to the contrary, it is self-evident that CSX is not getting screwed. If they were they would simply nix the deal and it would be over before it even started. Corporations are not tasked with helping the public good. They are not expected to defer to the public's interest. They are expected to turn a profit above all other considerations. There is no reason to assume or expect any other outcome. No wonder then that CSX would be very happy with selling the A-line while still retaining operating rights. Maintenance, repairs and legal liability for a nice chunk of one of Florida's mainlines will now be the responsibility of Florida taxpayers while CSX will still retain their ability to offload overflow during nights and weekends. It's also quite probable that CSX sees SunRail for the political stunt that it is and fully expects to reacquire controlling interest of weekday operations along the A-line if and when SunRail fails a future political budget test.
RCrierie
Train Attendant
How can it be worse than the HSR project?
For one, it's cheaper to acquire the trackage, and then maintain it vs building and then maintaining a 125+ MPH line.
Secondly, it makes use of equipment types already in use across the US, such as bilevel commuter coaches and commuter diesels.
If SunRail proves successful enough, it can be expanded and increased in speed; but from where I stand; a 60~ mile line is a pretty good low key start for a system that can slowly be expanded as needed.
For one, it's cheaper to acquire the trackage, and then maintain it vs building and then maintaining a 125+ MPH line.
Secondly, it makes use of equipment types already in use across the US, such as bilevel commuter coaches and commuter diesels.
If SunRail proves successful enough, it can be expanded and increased in speed; but from where I stand; a 60~ mile line is a pretty good low key start for a system that can slowly be expanded as needed.
Ryan
Court Jester
TS,
So what's your point - that this deal never should have been done and SunRail should have been killed as well? If so, why? If not, under what conditions would you like to see them go forward?
Your primary yardstick seems to be that "If CSX likes it, that must mean that the taxpayer is getting screwed" - if that's truly your argument, do you not see any space for a mutually beneficial deal to go down?
I hate to say it, but you're really long on complaining and criticism, and short on actually feasible ideas for progress.
So what's your point - that this deal never should have been done and SunRail should have been killed as well? If so, why? If not, under what conditions would you like to see them go forward?
Your primary yardstick seems to be that "If CSX likes it, that must mean that the taxpayer is getting screwed" - if that's truly your argument, do you not see any space for a mutually beneficial deal to go down?
I hate to say it, but you're really long on complaining and criticism, and short on actually feasible ideas for progress.
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MattW
Conductor
So you're saying that the benefit to CSX is greater than the benefit to the taxpayers? Why? What's your measurement for this?
Stop putting words in my mouth and telling me what you think I've said!
If CSX were getting half the funding, then you could potentially claim that this was a taxpayer bailout. When 3/4ths of the project monies are not going to CSX, it's not a bailout of CSX!
Again, whether or not you think that Sunrail is a good idea or a bad idea doesn't change the fact that it is not corporate welfare for CSX. As for fair market value, I guess you're one of those guys who thinks that we should use eminent domain for everything.
As for Florida needing more passenger rail, I do believe that it does. And I do think that Sunrail is a first logical step for the Orlando area. But unlike you, I'm not allowing my feelings to interfere with what the numbers show for CSX. CSX has already signed off on this deal. They did it months ago. And once again, that $209 for those bridges was agreed upon a long time ago. It got thrown into this deal at the last minute, but it really has nothing to do with Sunrail.
As noted above, it can be separated. That $209M will be spent no matter what else happens. So even though it is considered on paper as part of the deal, work has already started on those bridges even though the Governor just signed off on Sunrail this weekend. If he hadn't signed off on this deal, work would have continued on those bridges no matter what. It's an agreement within an agreement!
Florida had already signed off on that deal for the bridges, and then some politician decided to throw it into the Sunrail deal
Read my post again!
I did agree that there is some potential benefit for CSX in those bridges. But it is minor compared to the public benefit!
I never said that CSX was getting screwed. I simply corrected your erroneous position that this deal represented corporate welfare for CSX.
As for the nonsense about CSX getting the line back, they might have hoped that would happen down in the Miami area originally, but that illusion quickly vanished. Tri-Rail isn't going anywhere and CSX is never getting those tracks back. And thanks to their own screw-ups, they don't even get to dispatch the line anymore, Tri-Rail took that away from them. So now they have to sit and wait for Tri-Rail to decide when their freight moves.
Well, according to this, it's MP36s and Bombardiers (what exciting and unique rolling stock North American commuter lines have). US Railcar (CRC's successor) offers equipment, but they've no factory to build them, and I don't believe anyone's ever ordered anything from them. http://en.wikipedia....wiki/US_Railcar
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
I fully agree with you. Frankly I don't see the logic behind the position that Texas Sunset and Nexis4Jersey are taking.
I think it is good that Florida is stepping upto the plate with their second reasonably well conceived commuter system. Their first is also considering the possibility of a second line using the FEC line, which could potentially also help out Amtrak. The first line has already helped out Amtrak. I simply do not see the downside in this at all. All my Florida friends from the Orlando area and Orange County, and most of them are not rail fans or foamers, seem to like the idea too.
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Rail Freak
Engineer
May have something to do with those darn hanging chads!!!!
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
Eminent domain is not the panacea that some imagine it to be, and does not necessarily produce the lowest price either. Eminent domain simply means that the owner cannot refuse to sell, but the owner can take the government to court if the offered price is not considered OK, and the thing can get held up there essentially for a long long time while the dispute is adjudicated, and typically both sides have to give some to arrive at a final result. Many judges are not particularly sympathetic to the government using eminent domain to try to bilk the owner of the fair market value.
Having watched the use of eminent domain to acquire the Lackawanna Cutoff right of way in NJ from an owner who claimed a completely outrageous market value for it and the final price that was arrived at, and given the current going price for properties similar to the CSX one in question (as documented by Alan in this thread), I am actually convinced that Florida is getting a pretty good deal. Others may disagree, but at best it is one marginally informed opinion against another.
On the whole the deal is a win win where both of the three or four sides come out ahead. CSX gets to consolidate operations on a single route and get passenger trains out of its hair. Florida gets a commuter rail service starter line around Orlando and Amtrak gets freight out of its hair on the SunRail owned railroad. Tri-Rail ownership south of West Palm has done wonders to Amtrak time keeping down there. This will have similar positive effect on Amtrak. So as I said before, I don't understand the objections being raised and am of course happy to be educated and convinced otherwise with reasoned argument. And as Ryan said, it would be helpful to know what changes to the deal would make it more acceptable, so that we can understand what the exact objection is. Right now it seems to me that the objection is that CSX is getting something out of it therefore it is bad, which IMHO is a silly objection.
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