"Evaluating McCain and Obama on travel issues"

[saxman]

Not to make more political banter for this forum, but this a really good article about both candidates about their stance on travel issues. Amtrak is actually covered a lot so I thought I'd post it here. Finally more and more people are thinking about rail, when they think about the word travel, instead of only autos and flying.

Link to article

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Just stick that big ole stick in the hornets nest and stir a bit now.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

"Amtrak should be restructured to eliminate its reliance on the American taxpayers and to allow for its privatization."

Fiscal conservative, booyah!

So my local RTA and the MTA and all the other TA's should also be ousted because they run off of my tax dollars? Amtrak is a public service more than a business opportunity. You tell people in Montana to fly, and they laugh!

Didn't the govt. also bailout the airline industry after 9/11? Way to rid us of foreign oil, make us drive...

*Grabs the GreenManedLion's patented hornet spray and stands by to be ripped to pieces.*

 

[Montanan]

You tell people in Montana to fly, and they laugh!

Actually, I'd probably cry.

Point is, though, is that virtually ALL transportation systems worldwide rely on government financial and logistical involvement. To expect Amtrak to be different is unrealistic, biased, destructive and disingenuous.

 

[jis]

"Amtrak should be restructured to eliminate its reliance on the American taxpayers and to allow for its privatization."

Fiscal conservative, booyah!

If they were not hypocrites they should start off by proposing that the entire highways system be shut down too while they are at it But then they are hypocrites. So c'est la vie.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

"Amtrak should be restructured to eliminate its reliance on the American taxpayers and to allow for its privatization."

Fiscal conservative, booyah!

If they were not hypocrites they should start off by proposing that the entire highways system be shut down too while they are at it But then they are hypocrites. So c'est la vie.

I mean- I get his point, Amtrak is run more like a business than your local bus or subways... But still- it is a govt. subsidized public service. Most of my friends who don't know jack about Amtrak think its like the MTA... only bigger.

Which, reasonably speaking, it is!

Actually, I'd probably cry.
Point is, though, is that virtually ALL transportation systems worldwide rely on government financial and logistical involvement. To expect Amtrak to be different is unrealistic, biased, destructive and disingenuous.

Well said man from Montana!

By the way, your gov. there- is just, awesome. I wanna sit down and have a beer with him!

 

[Montanan]

By the way, your gov. there- is just, awesome. I wanna sit down and have a beer with him!

He is an amazing guy, indeed ... I'm a big fan of his, and I think he's going to go far.

He's a supporter of passenger rail, too -- but in Montana, pretty much EVERY successful statewide politician is an Amtrak advocate. We do love our Empire Builder out here.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

By the way, your gov. there- is just, awesome. I wanna sit down and have a beer with him!

He is an amazing guy, indeed ... I'm a big fan of his, and I think he's going to go far.

He's a supporter of passenger rail, too -- but in Montana, pretty much EVERY successful statewide politician is an Amtrak advocate. We do love our Empire Builder out here.

I don't blame yeh on both accounts. Ohioans have an affinity for Strickland, he's quiet and reserved, which fits into what most Ohioans want- quiet, peace, and reservations on Amtrak! Strickland is also an Amtrak supporter- though his dreams for Ohio could be considered lofty at best.

But back to Montana, I saw him give that speech at the DNC and I asked myself 'Wait, they voted THIS guy in, and they'll go for McCain in November? How?"

 

[Montanan]

But back to Montana, I saw him give that speech at the DNC and I asked myself 'Wait, they voted THIS guy in, and they'll go for McCain in November? How?"

I'm very happy to report that Montana is actually beginning to transition into a blue state ... not only do we have a Democratic governor, but both of our senators are Dems, too. (One of them, a guy named Jon Testor, would remind you very much of Schweitzer.) This is a transition that is happening in many of the mountain states.

And while M***** is still probably going to win Montana, Obama is closing in the polls, and he'll do much better than W did.

Sadly, I don't suppose any of this is going to bring back the North Coast Hiawatha, though ...

 

[access bob]

"Amtrak should be restructured to eliminate its reliance on the American taxpayers and to allow for its privatization."

Fiscal conservative, booyah!

So my local RTA and the MTA and all the other TA's should also be ousted because they run off of my tax dollars? Amtrak is a public service more than a business opportunity. You tell people in Montana to fly, and they laugh!

Didn't the govt. also bailout the airline industry after 9/11? Way to rid us of foreign oil, make us drive...

*Grabs the GreenManedLion's patented hornet spray and stands by to be ripped to pieces.*

Duh, in 1971 the gov bailed out private enterprise and took over the running of passenger service. why would anyone think that it can now be run as a profit, I don't believe it ran a profit as a whole anytime after WWII (maybe one or two trains but not the system) even the Railroads that didn't join Amtrak in 1971 didn't run their passenger trains at a profit they had other motives to hang onto the money losing trains.

Bob

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

But back to Montana, I saw him give that speech at the DNC and I asked myself 'Wait, they voted THIS guy in, and they'll go for McCain in November? How?"

I'm very happy to report that Montana is actually beginning to transition into a blue state ... not only do we have a Democratic governor, but both of our senators are Dems, too. (One of them, a guy named Jon Testor, would remind you very much of Schweitzer.) This is a transition that is happening in many of the mountain states.

And while M***** is still probably going to win Montana, Obama is closing in the polls, and he'll do much better than W did.

Sadly, I don't suppose any of this is going to bring back the North Coast Hiawatha, though ...

I talked to Testor on the phone once- long story short- I liked him. He was very polite and informative. And I'm not even his constituent. But while you think mountain are starting to turn blue- I must point to your West at Idaho, the most McCain friendly state- by polls. At least you're not always undecided- What i hate about Ohio is that since we're always a toss up state, we always get hounded with ads starting with the conventions and not ending until the President is sworn in!

Well when I run for President, I can promise you we will have at least two routes going through Montana-

And I promise you free healthcare!

And free college!

And we'll win every war we fight!

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

"Amtrak should be restructured to eliminate its reliance on the American taxpayers and to allow for its privatization."

Fiscal conservative, booyah!

So my local RTA and the MTA and all the other TA's should also be ousted because they run off of my tax dollars? Amtrak is a public service more than a business opportunity. You tell people in Montana to fly, and they laugh!

Didn't the govt. also bailout the airline industry after 9/11? Way to rid us of foreign oil, make us drive...

*Grabs the GreenManedLion's patented hornet spray and stands by to be ripped to pieces.*

Duh, in 1971 the gov bailed out private enterprise and took over the running of passenger service. why would anyone think that it can now be run as a profit, I don't believe it ran a profit as a whole anytime after WWII (maybe one or two trains but not the system) even the Railroads that didn't join Amtrak in 1971 didn't run their passenger trains at a profit they had other motives to hang onto the money losing trains.

Bob

I mean- we can chalk this up to both candidates not really understanding what Amtrak is... quite literally what it is besides a "railroad".

Who lobbies for Amtrak issues in Congress?

 

[Montanan]

I talked to Testor on the phone once- long story short- I liked him. He was very polite and informative. And I'm not even his constituent. But while you think mountain are starting to turn blue- I must point to your West at Idaho, the most McCain friendly state- by polls. At least you're not always undecided- What i hate about Ohio is that since we're always a toss up state, we always get hounded with ads starting with the conventions and not ending until the President is sworn in!
Well when I run for President, I can promise you we will have at least two routes going through Montana-

Well, Idaho's regressive political philosophies are influenced by its proximity to Utah, if you know what I mean. But despite that, all the politicians there still want the Pioneer back!

And when you get to be president, I'd like to request that you bring back the Olympian for me ... that's not too much to ask, is it?

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

I talked to Testor on the phone once- long story short- I liked him. He was very polite and informative. And I'm not even his constituent. But while you think mountain are starting to turn blue- I must point to your West at Idaho, the most McCain friendly state- by polls. At least you're not always undecided- What i hate about Ohio is that since we're always a toss up state, we always get hounded with ads starting with the conventions and not ending until the President is sworn in!
Well when I run for President, I can promise you we will have at least two routes going through Montana-

Well, Idaho's regressive political philosophies are influenced by its proximity to Utah, if you know what I mean. But despite that, all the politicians there still want the Pioneer back!

And when you get to be president, I'd like to request that you bring back the Olympian for me ... that's not too much to ask, is it?

I actually do have a plan as to how I could become President despite three major pitfalls- And on my platform Amtrak gets a big fat bonus.

As for Mountain states going liberal- one could always argue that Colorado was liberal- but the liberals there never got out the vote. Let's just say McCain ruined their buzz... LoL.

Isn't North Dakota leaning Obama? If so, that means every state covered by the EB is leaning or moving towards that direction... except Idaho.

 

[access bob]

I talked to Testor on the phone once- long story short- I liked him. He was very polite and informative. And I'm not even his constituent. But while you think mountain are starting to turn blue- I must point to your West at Idaho, the most McCain friendly state- by polls. At least you're not always undecided- What i hate about Ohio is that since we're always a toss up state, we always get hounded with ads starting with the conventions and not ending until the President is sworn in!
Well when I run for President, I can promise you we will have at least two routes going through Montana-

Well, Idaho's regressive political philosophies are influenced by its proximity to Utah, if you know what I mean. But despite that, all the politicians there still want the Pioneer back!

And when you get to be president, I'd like to request that you bring back the Olympian for me ... that's not too much to ask, is it?

I actually do have a plan as to how I could become President despite three major pitfalls- And on my platform Amtrak gets a big fat bonus.

As for Mountain states going liberal- one could always argue that Colorado was liberal- but the liberals there never got out the vote. Let's just say McCain ruined their buzz... LoL.

Isn't North Dakota leaning Obama? If so, that means every state covered by the EB is leaning or moving towards that direction... except Idaho.

well the EB tiptoes thru the teaming metropolis of Sandpoint ID in the middle of the night, the other half dozen people in the state probably don't even know Amtrak exists

Bob

 

[AlanB]

Duh, in 1971 the gov bailed out private enterprise and took over the running of passenger service. why would anyone think that it can now be run as a profit, I don't believe it ran a profit as a whole anytime after WWII (maybe one or two trains but not the system) even the Railroads that didn't join Amtrak in 1971 didn't run their passenger trains at a profit they had other motives to hang onto the money losing trains.
Bob

This to me remains the single biggest thing in my mind. How could anyone in their right mind expect a money loosing proposition to suddenly start making a profit just because you formed one company to do everything that several used to do.

Yes one does get some savings from consolidating management and reservations, but still. It wasn't like the freight were loosing just a few bucks, they were loosing big bucks running pax service. No consolidation was going to overcome those losses, especially not when proper investment to try and help Amtrak get new equipment right away was not forthcoming.

 

[AlanB]

Well, Idaho's regressive political philosophies are influenced by its proximity to Utah, if you know what I mean. But despite that, all the politicians there still want the Pioneer back!

Actually Utah is starting to do some pretty amazing things in Salt Lake City with its own trains. They have an already decent light rail system that either has construction on 4 new routes or is about to start construction. As well as a brand new and highly successful commuter service, that has also broken ground on its first extension.

Yes there are still many who cry out against that, but the tide does seem to be turning and many who were sitting on the fence regarding rail transportation are coming down off the fence in favor of it. Even some opposed are starting to see the light, although not all are yet.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

"Amtrak should be restructured to eliminate its reliance on the American taxpayers and to allow for its privatization."

Fiscal conservative, booyah!

So my local RTA and the MTA and all the other TA's should also be ousted because they run off of my tax dollars? Amtrak is a public service more than a business opportunity. You tell people in Montana to fly, and they laugh!

Didn't the govt. also bailout the airline industry after 9/11? Way to rid us of foreign oil, make us drive...

*Grabs the GreenManedLion's patented hornet spray and stands by to be ripped to pieces.*

Duh, in 1971 the gov bailed out private enterprise and took over the running of passenger service. why would anyone think that it can now be run as a profit, I don't believe it ran a profit as a whole anytime after WWII (maybe one or two trains but not the system) even the Railroads that didn't join Amtrak in 1971 didn't run their passenger trains at a profit they had other motives to hang onto the money losing trains.

Bob

The problem was, Amtrak was sold to congress under the point that it would make a profit and be privatized in a short time frame. It was supposed to accomplish operating efficiencies, reduce costs, provide for growth based on an integrated system, and retire old, poorly built, and decrepit equipment, such as most Pullman built cars running on the east coast.

Amtrak was advertised as being a venture that, through creating efficiencies, would make a profit. By consolidating passengers onto smaller network, less trains would be needed.

Amtrak CAN be operationally self sufficient, possibly even profitable. It requires a crapload of capital investment, however. New cars, new stuff, elimination of their massive debt burden, bringing everything to a state of good repair such that they don't spend so much money constantly repairing things and paying customers to cover the ramifications of their failures.

Its a microcosm of American government really. We have to DO SOMETHING. So we do what the least possible is to make it look like we are doing something. But we never do enough to let it actually do something.

 

[zoltan]

but in Montana, pretty much EVERY successful statewide politician is an Amtrak advocate. We do love our Empire Builder out here.

The idea of a pro-rail state sounds quite wonderful.

Strickland is also an Amtrak supporter- though his dreams for Ohio could be considered lofty at best.

It would be fantastic to see it happen! But not exactly strategic, to build a rail system around Cleveland that gets halfway to other major cities, like Chicago.

And when you get to be president, I'd like to request that you bring back the Olympian for me ... that's not too much to ask, is it?

What was the Olympian?

 

[jis]

And when you get to be president, I'd like to request that you bring back the Olympian for me ... that's not too much to ask, is it?

Do you mean by restoring the whole Milwaukee Road ROW all the way to Seattle first? Or just naming a train from Chicago to Seattle that runs through southern Montana?

Wasn't the name North Coast Hiawatha derived from North Coast Limited and Olympian Hiawatha?

Unfortunately the climb down into Butte from the east is probably gone forever, but a routing through Helena could still happen.

 

[Tim]

I do not think President Palin will care about Amtrak issues one way or another.

Amtrak does not, and will probably never, have service in the state of Alaska.

Not to get too political here, however, in the back of my mind, I think a McCain

administration will not last too long and will end up as the Palin Administration.

 

[WICT106]

And when you get to be president, I'd like to request that you bring back the Olympian for me ... that's not too much to ask, is it?

What was the Olympian?

See these links : Take a ride aboard the Olympian.

Tour the Olympian Hiawatha.

Streamliner Schedule for the Olympian Hi, circa July 1956.

Stylish Hiawatha was Queen of the Milwaukee Road.

Amtrak's North Coast Hi, from Everything dot com.

Some Hiawatha photos.

An article on the Twin Cities Hi.

A summary of the Olympian Hi.

Another article on the Olympian Hi.

NationMaster article on the Hiawathas.

See also The Milwaukee Road, by August Derleth (recently reprinted courtesy of the University of Iowa Press ) , and also The Hiawatha Story, by Jim Scribbins (recently reprinted by the University of Minnesota Press).

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Amtrak CAN be operationally self sufficient, possibly even profitable. It requires a crapload of capital investment, however. New cars, new stuff, elimination of their massive debt burden, bringing everything to a state of good repair such that they don't spend so much money constantly repairing things and paying customers to cover the ramifications of their failures.
Its a microcosm of American government really. We have to DO SOMETHING. So we do what the least possible is to make it look like we are doing something. But we never do enough to let it actually do something.

Exactly. Despite populist thinking in government, the solution to MANY of our problems remains throwing money at it!

 

[Montanan]

And when you get to be president, I'd like to request that you bring back the Olympian for me ... that's not too much to ask, is it?

Do you mean by restoring the whole Milwaukee Road ROW all the way to Seattle first? Or just naming a train from Chicago to Seattle that runs through southern Montana?

Wasn't the name North Coast Hiawatha derived from North Coast Limited and Olympian Hiawatha?

Unfortunately the climb down into Butte from the east is probably gone forever, but a routing through Helena could still happen.

No, I want ALC to rebuild the Milwaukee's Pacific Coast Extension for me ... since he's in the mood to make promises, I'll take as much as I can! Next I'm going to request Skytops and Little Joes.

(Nothing against the other northern transcontinentals, but I think the Milwaukee's line was by far the most spectacular, and there's just something inherently romantic about a lost cause, anyway ...)

As for the NP's old line over Homestake Pass into Butte, it's sat unused for a quarter-century now, but it's still in relatively good shape. (There have been a couple half-hearted proposals over the years to run tourist trains over it from Butte, but nothing's progressed very far.) The consensus, though, is that any future Amtrak service would run through Helena instead -- since Helena's on the active line and is a growing metropolitan area.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

And when you get to be president, I'd like to request that you bring back the Olympian for me ... that's not too much to ask, is it?

Do you mean by restoring the whole Milwaukee Road ROW all the way to Seattle first? Or just naming a train from Chicago to Seattle that runs through southern Montana?

Wasn't the name North Coast Hiawatha derived from North Coast Limited and Olympian Hiawatha?

Unfortunately the climb down into Butte from the east is probably gone forever, but a routing through Helena could still happen.

No, I want ALC to rebuild the Milwaukee's Pacific Coast Extension for me ... since he's in the mood to make promises, I'll take as much as I can! Next I'm going to request Skytops and Little Joes.

(Nothing against the other northern transcontinentals, but I think the Milwaukee's line was by far the most spectacular, and there's just something inherently romantic about a lost cause, anyway ...)

As for the NP's old line over Homestake Pass into Butte, it's sat unused for a quarter-century now, but it's still in relatively good shape. (There have been a couple half-hearted proposals over the years to run tourist trains over it from Butte, but nothing's progressed very far.) The consensus, though, is that any future Amtrak service would run through Helena instead -- since Helena's on the active line and is a growing metropolitan area.

Well the first thing I am going to order restored is the Desert Wind (in my dreams)- but in reality what I'll have Congress draft up a bill stating that I am going to give Amtrak every penny it needs to be a profitable enterprise- with the stipulation that the increase service dramatically.