EB sold-out in August, bad news for Amtrak IMO.

[PennCentralFan]

According to amtrak's webpage it is. I was thinking of taking the EB from MSP to Chicago in August roundtrip. I see it's sold out. Now that is good news, but in the long run it's bad news. I mean I can get a plane ticket no problem for the dates I want to travel. Yes planes are under tighter capacity but I can still get a tix. Heck, I bet I can get a seat in July for August flights given all the options flights offer. The thing is I want to take the train, but if Amtrak cannot offer frequent and rapid service why should the general public consider Amtrak.

I am a supporter of rail so I will come back and see what I can work out, but Joe Six-pack who listens to Rush and Sean and watches Fox News will use this against us.

The MSP to Chicago route should be seen as a corridor for travel and not a tourist land cruise. The idea of only 1-daily train from MSP to Chicago and 1-daily train from Chicago to MSP is counter-productive.

I used to work in retail and when you are sold out of something or don't have something that people expect youto have they often don't comeback and find other retail outlets.

I bet that many others who thought about the train won't now. They'll most likely bite the bullet and drive or fly or ugh, take the bus.

Now who do I complain to about this situation? I know Amtrak workers hands are tied, but this is pretty dumb. It's sort of like if you build it people will come.

People want rapid, reliable, and frequent service. What part of that don't the suits and idiotic politicians don't understand?

 

[GG-1]

Aloha

When you describe a trip 2? month out that is sold out I get stuck with the question "Why can't Amtrak adjust capacity?

Mahalo

 

[yarrow]

if the eb loses money on each passenger, as we are told, how could they ever add capacity without losing more money? a catch 22?

 

[Guest_Gingee]

It is sold out for the whole month or just the date you want? If it is sold out for the month, then I think that should be telling the big shots something. WE WANT THE TRAIN.

 

[-Jamie-]

At least it's a daily train! It could be like the Sunset Limited and only run 3 days a week.

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

a lot of times they can't add cars due to the car limit that the freight RR's have on Amtrak and it is Diffrent from RR to RR.

 

[PennCentralFan]

It is sold out for the whole month or just the date you want? If it is sold out for the month, then I think that should be telling the big shots something. WE WANT THE TRAIN.

The coach seats are sold out. Few people are going to spend the considerable extra amount of money for a room in addition to the cost of the coach seat for a 7-8 hr ride. Heck a plane ticket is becomes even more attractive when all coach seats are sold out and you can only buy a room for about 170.00 dollars plus the 80.00 coach fare.

 

[The Metropolitan]

CHI-MSP does to me seem like a city pair that would fall under the possibility of expanded service, a "daytrip" regional candidate like those described by Rafi in his "Dinner with Hughes" post, that could run using Amfleet coaches.

But if a "Twin Cities Zephyr" was resurrected, what sort of schedule would one suggest that stays in the daylight timeframe without being too close to the EB?

A 9am from Chicago seems plausible, but what of the EB? 1pm?

Heck, I know the money aint there at this time, but it's still nice to dream.

 

[PennCentralFan]

But if a "Twin Cities Zephyr" was resurrected, what sort of schedule would one suggest that stays in the daylight timeframe without being too close to the EB?
A 9am from Chicago seems plausible, but what of the EB? 1pm?

Heck, I know the money aint there at this time, but it's still nice to dream.

I would scrap the EB. Land cruises aren't the answer. I would run shuttles between Chicago and the twin cities with stops in MKE, Madison area and the current stops between the Chicago and TC run of the EB.

One train a day from Chicago to the TC and from the TC to Chicago is NOT the answer. There is a demand for reliable affordable travel with less hassles for the Upper Midwest. Heck if the Wolvervine runs 3x a day I can't image why a train between MSP and CHI couldn't run 2x a day.

 

[Trogdor]

When you describe a trip 2? month out that is sold out I get stuck with the question "Why can't Amtrak adjust capacity?

With what cars?

if the eb loses money on each passenger, as we are told, how could they ever add capacity without losing more money? a catch 22?

Those who say that the Empire Builder (or any train) "loses money on each passenger" are severely misrepresenting the situation. The fact is, it costs a certain fixed amount to run a train, and a certain additional amount to add capacity. Each revenue passenger then contributes money that goes towards covering the costs of operation. The fact that the total revenues are less than the total expenses means that the route loses money, but it is not the same as "losing money on each passenger." If that were the case, the train wouldn't lose money at all...if only nobody rode it.

I would scrap the EB. Land cruises aren't the answer. I would run shuttles between Chicago and the twin cities with stops in MKE, Madison area and the current stops between the Chicago and TC run of the EB.
One train a day from Chicago to the TC and from the TC to Chicago is NOT the answer. There is a demand for reliable affordable travel with less hassles for the Upper Midwest. Heck if the Wolvervine runs 3x a day I can't image why a train between MSP and CHI couldn't run 2x a day.

The Empire Builder is not a land cruise. Nothing Amtrak runs is a land cruise. If certain people decide to use it as such, that is certainly their right, but the Empire Builder provides vital transportation access to remote areas of North Dakota and Montana that have no other form of common carrier transportation available (and aren't even close to interstate highways if they wanted to drive).

As for comparing the Empire Builder to the Wolverine, the Empire Builder actually has a higher cost recovery ratio than does the Wolverine.

So there.

 

[Sam Damon]

I don't get it. :blink:

When I pull up Amtrak.com for a one-way trip from MSP to CHI, "808 Empire Builder" pops up. A coach seat is available, but everything else appears sold out. Can someone explain this one?

I'd post a screenshot, except I'm not sure how to do this. PM me with instructions if you think this might prove useful. Oh, yes, I pulled a couple random dates in August.

 

[Chi_Train_Fan]

I don't see a problem getting a seat on the Empire Builder in August. Amtrak is currently offering seating on "808 Empire Builder" and "807 Empire Builder". This is an extra coach they add in the summer. Normally the EB runs with 2 Seattle Coaches and 2 Portland coaches. This is a fifth coach they add and subtract in MSP during the busy season. I believe it is Minnesota Commercial locomotives that add and subtract the coach in MSP. I only feel sorry for those riding in the Portland Sleeper at the end of train, they have to deal with Coach passengers running through their Sleeper for the 8 hour trip from/to Chicago.

Cheers,

David Z

 

[Trogdor]

\When I pull up Amtrak.com for a one-way trip from MSP to CHI, "808 Empire Builder" pops up. A coach seat is available, but everything else appears sold out. Can someone explain this one?

This is for the same reason you'll often find 421/422 "sold out" (or at least, more expensive) than 1/2 between San Antonio and Los Angeles. They want the local passengers to book using the added space (which, apparently due to computer/technological reasons that I'm not entirely familiar with, has to get its own train number rather than representing an increase in capacity for 7 or 27 over part of the route). This preserves the long-haul space on 7 and 27 for those passengers traveling longer distances.

 

[PRR 60]

The Amtrak CRS cannot deal with changing capacities within a single route so they work around this by establishing a phantom train for the extra coach and then block reservations in the through cars within the section where the extra car is operated (MSP-CHI). If you look at Fargo to Chicago in August you can see that coach seats on 7, 8, 27, & 28 are open: the train is not sold out.

 

[jphjaxfl]

Amtrak did run a second train Twin Cities to Chiacgo from 1972 through the early 1980s. It was orginally the North Coast Hiawatha which operated a least 3 times a week from Chicago to Seattle and daily from Chicago to the Twin Cities. It orginally ran left Chicago in the morning and the Twin Cities at noon. It was very well patronized. After the Twin Cities-Seattle North Coast was discontinued in 1979, the train was changed to over night from Chicago to the Twin Cities and Duluth was called the North Star. It was great because you could get a sleeping car and be in Chicago or the Twin Cities in the morning. I used to take the Northstar overnight from the Twin Cities to Chicago for a long weekend and return on the Empire Builder in the afternoon. Both trains were well patronized. The North Star had great connections in Chicago due to the early morning arrival and late night departure. However, the state of Minnesota stopped funding the Twin Cities to Duluth portion and in one of Amtrak's budget crises in the 1980s the second Twin Cities-Chicago train was discontinued for good.

 

[Guest]

Yes, there is a need for better frequency between Chicago and Minneapolis, however I can't agree with the original poster that the lack of this frequency is going to drive people to abandon Amtrak and take to the skies or highways. If someone is interested in taking Amtrak and that particular day is sold out, most people would look one day backward or one day forward and check availability. As subsequent posters have noted, the train is not sold out the month of August, but if it is close to being sold out that is certainly a good thing for Amtrak - in spite of Secretary Mineta's constant comments that "no one rides these trains".

He must be taking lessons from Yogi Berra - "No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded."

 

[Boxcar]

I am a supporter of rail so I will come back and see what I can work out, but Joe Six-pack who listens to Rush and Sean and watches Fox News will use this against us.

Well Penncentralfan...I prefer Margaritas too beer but I do listen to Rush and Sean plus watch Fox news but still support rail travel and cannot see how a fully booked train could be used against Amtrak. :blink:

Even if the EB was fully booked the entire month of August and there was another car to add there would have to be sustained need for that car.

They can't add another car for what may turn out to be 4 or 5 passengers.

I would be willing to bet IMHO that if the EB was sold out many months of the year then another car or two would be found and added. As for an additional train. :unsure: ....good luck.

Anyway....here's hoping you find the reservations you desire and are able to travel and support Amtrak.......BD

 

[railfangns]

Why couldnt some of the hiawatha trains continue on from Milwaukee to Minneapolis?Instead of laying over in Milwaukee let one hiawatha train Travel west toward minneapolis in the morning and let it return later in the day.Milwaukee has 6 or 7 trains every day in both directions but the twin cities only has 1.

 

[Guest]

Why couldnt some of the hiawatha trains continue on from Milwaukee to Minneapolis?Instead of laying over in Milwaukee let one hiawatha train Travel west toward minneapolis in the morning and let it return later in the day.Milwaukee has 6 or 7 trains every day in both directions but the twin cities only has 1.

Probably because the Hiawatha trains are doing quite well and there does not seem to be the same high demand for the service to Minneapolis.

 

[Trogdor]

Why couldnt some of the hiawatha trains continue on from Milwaukee to Minneapolis?Instead of laying over in Milwaukee let one hiawatha train Travel west toward minneapolis in the morning  and  let it return later in the day.Milwaukee has 6 or 7 trains every day in both directions but the twin cities only has 1.

Probably because the Hiawatha trains are doing quite well and there does not seem to be the same high demand for the service to Minneapolis.

Well, there would naturally be less demand for longer-distance travel than shorter-distance travel (just as there are more flights between Chicago and Denver than there are between Chicago and Tokyo). However, the primary reason (besides money) that they couldn't extend Hiawatha trains to St. Paul is because that would require more equipment. The average scheduled layover (excluding overnights) for Hiawatha trainsets in Milwaukee is 48 minutes, ranging from a low of 26 minutes between trains 335 and 338 to a high of 71 minutes between trains 333 and 336. That's not quite enough time to run to Minnesota and back (not even on a plane).