EB mess

[montana mike]

The EB's are becoming "intermodal" transportation (i.e.. using busses and trains to get the pax from point A to point B)

 

[yarrow]

good comment about the intermodal eb, monana mike. the eb is a farce

 

[amamba]

20 extra hours on the train? I'd enjoy that, as long as I didn't have anything pressing on the other end of it.

Yeah...I thought I wouldn't mind the delayed train but frankly I started getting delirious when I was on that 30 hour late EB. Plus it didn't help that we missed meals and than had nasty amstew. I was getting the "hangries" on the train (hungry + angry = hangry).

 

[ScottRu]

This is ultimately so sad. The EB used to be a fine train. (I took it from Boston to Portland, OR in November...arrived only 20 minutes late. Must have been one of the last "good" trips in quite some time.)

 

[CHamilton]

All Aboard Washington heard a presentation yesterday from Johan Hellman, Executive Director, State Government Affairs, BNSF Railway. He did not have anything definitive to say about the EB situation, but said that there would be a lot of work done this summer on the Hi-Line. Here's one of his slides. It's pretty blurry, but from top left, they read:

• 2 additional staging tracks at Bellingham Sub [gray]
• More than 20 miles of double tracking at Glasgow Sub [green]
• Significant double tracking at Lakeside Sub [green]
• 4 siding extensions at Hillsboro and Dickinson Subs [blue]
• 2 new sidings at Fallbridge and Lakeside Subs [blue]
• New siding and 4 siding extensions at Forsyth Sub [green]
• Terminal expansion projects at Glendive and Forsyth Subs [gray]
• 3 new sidings at Dickinson, Jamestown and Zap Subs [blue]
• 2 new sidings at Hannibal and River Subs [blue]
• Double track 4 miles at River Sub [green]

I also found the attached PDF of BNSF's subs.



subdivisions-map.pdf

 

[neroden]

20 extra hours on the train? I'd enjoy that, as long as I didn't have anything pressing on the other end of it.

20 unexpected hours with no extra food? Or 20 hours waiting for the train at St. Paul Midway? Wouldn't enjoy either. If I were going from Chicago to Seattle at this point, I'd go via Sacramento, which is longer, but has food and is more reliable. Predictability is critical.

I'm still postponing a trip to Minneapolis until they move the station. If there are still ridiculous delays on the EB at that point, I don't know what I'll do for the eastbound -- schedule an overnight in Chicago in case of delays?

On-time performance is critical. It sank *systemwide* this year for reasons which are not clear, but on the Empire Builder at least it's obvious what the causes are.

My problem wouldn't be the 20+ hours - it's the not knowing whether it's going to be 5 hours, 15 hours, 25 hours, or 35 hours...

Yeah, the unpredictability is the worst.

This isn't just trains. I didn't like circling in the air for an hour over Yuma on an airplane, either. And the unpredictable length of driving time (due to congestion, road conditions, etc.) is a serious negative for driving long distances too.

 

[dabrilloman]

Neroden...if you don't mind a bus ride, MegaBus departs from SPUD also. They have about 6 trips a day to Chicago.

Not sure if you knew that.

 

[Carey]

My problem is I am going Seattle to Milwaukee. Have flight the following morning home. 20+ hours I miss it. Does amtrak cover something like that?

 

[EB_OBS]

My problem is I am going Seattle to Milwaukee. Have flight the following morning home. 20+ hours I miss it. Does amtrak cover something like that?

Unfortunately, no.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

My problem is I am going Seattle to Milwaukee. Have flight the following morning home. 20+ hours I miss it. Does amtrak cover something like that?

Unfortunately, no.

But to be fair, no carrier of any kind covers something like that. Nobody - air carriers, Amtrak, cruise lines, etc. - covers any kind of loss created due to delays.

 

[neroden]

Neroden...if you don't mind a bus ride, MegaBus departs from SPUD also. They have about 6 trips a day to Chicago.

Not sure if you knew that.

Oh, I did. Apart from my motion-sickness, which makes long bus rides quite unpleasant (I'm OK with short bus rides).... Megabus hires extremely inexperienced drivers and has killed people in my area fairly recently due to gross incompetence. I'm sufficiently risk-averse I won't ride Megabus ever.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/driver-acquitted-upstate-megabus-crash-killed-4-passengers-article-1.1029901

 

[montana mike]

I just wish Amtrak would bite the proverbial bullet and be more realistic about the schedule for the Empire Builder. BNSF has said that 4+ hour delays are to be expected in both directions for the "foreseeable future" (meaning until they finish their multi-year track upgrades). The current trains miss schedules day in and day out and will continue to do so for many months? Amtrak has already severed almost all connections for the Builders anyway, so it would seem to make sense to sit down with BNSF (who, according to my local contacts would be amenable to working with them) and come up with more realistic schedules for the next several years. Personally an 8 PM arrival time in CHI and 2 PM in SEA would appear to be more realistic, given the performance ever the past 6 months.

I just don't see the point of having the Empire Builders run many hours late every day for years. What does that prove?

 

[Ryan]

They would also have to sit down with CP and METRA and try to hash out an agreement with all of them.

Also, once there, the extra padding is EXTREMELY difficult to get rid of.

 

[neroden]

The Class Is have developed a record of double-dealing and dishonesty when it comes to adding padding to a schedule. Frequently the padding has translated to "run the trains even slower and they're still not on time". Also, "temporary" padding has not been removed when its causes have gone away.

Since the Class Is have developed a reputation for double-dealing when it comes to schedule planning, Amtrak can't trust them: if padding is added, Amtrak can't trust that the trains will run on time, or that the padding will be removed after it is no longer needed. If BNSF offered a contract with teeth, where BNSF actually guaranteed that the padding would give the desired results, and agreed to pay *large* penalties if it didn't, then Amtrak might be able to do it; legally enforceable contract penalties are one way you deal with an untrustworthy organization.

But would BNSF agree to such penalty clauses? If not, it's a sign that BNSF would, in fact, be planning to betray Amtrak.

 

[montana mike]

Well, if it is "too hard" to adjust a schedule for a long period of time then the LEAST Amtrak should do for prospective pass embers is to have "permanent alert" for the Empire Builder to say that due to the mess on the Hi-Line people should expect at least multi-hour delays enroute with approximate 4+ hour delays at each final destination--give people a reasonable idea as to what to expect. The fantasy of sticking to a schedule that no train has met for many months, and will not likely meet for perhaps a couple more years just make no sense......

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

The fantasy of sticking to a schedule that no train has met for many months, and will not likely meet for perhaps a couple more years just make no sense......

I have yet to hear anyone say that the Empire Builder will be able to make schedule. All the talk is about try to catch up on routine care, and add a few extra tracks here and there. There seem to be no plans to fix the real issues of the route.

 

[montana mike]

Well, BNSF has indeed upped the ante by doubling the amount of money they will spend over the next 12 months compared to what they had originally planned. But as the BNSF folks here locally have told me in order to make a long term and permanent difference BNSF will be required to spend perhaps 4 or 5 times that amount on the Hi-Line over the next 3+ years. The "suits" at Berkshire Hathaway have yet to approve the big "Grand Plan" that would make this happen. Perhaps they will, but as of this month the folks in the trenches have been told no final decisions have been made on spending what is necessary for the long term fix.

 

[CHamilton]

A friend from Minnesota says :

We drove on US10 from Anoka to Motley yesterday, paralleling the BNSF main line through Minnesota. We saw eight or nine stopped trains (I lost count) and exactly one moving train. A crew was arriving at one of the stopped trains just west of Little Falls as we passed by. No wonder the Builder has a hard time getting through.

And 48 hours later:

We made the return trip today; this time I counted more carefully. We saw a total of twenty trains in the roughly 110 miles between Motley and Anoka. Fifteen were stopped, five were moving. Four of the moving trains were a group of unit tanker trains, travelling westbound with about 1-2 miles of separation between them. The other was an eastbound mixed freight. Everything else was stopped.

At least one of the trains was there all weekend. It was headed by NS Heritage unit 1067 -- Reading Lines 'Bee Line Service.' We saw it on Friday and Sunday.

 

[Texan Eagle]

The fantasy of sticking to a schedule that no train has met for many months, and will not likely meet for perhaps a couple more years just make no sense......

I have yet to hear anyone say that the Empire Builder will be able to make schedule.

The Amtrak site says. When I go there to book a ticket on Empire Builder, it shows me CHI departure 2.15pm, SEA arrival 10.25am. We all know, and Amtrak knows too, that this is just "on paper" these days, so they should put up a permanent sticky note there cautioning potential passengers that "this train is subject to long delays due to problems on the Hi-Line". This can help Amtrak save its back too in a way. If disgruntled passengers call asking for refunds or vouchers for the delay, Amtrak can tell them "We told you so!"

 

[montana mike]

I have spoken with Customer Relations about doing just what you have suggested twice now and both times they said Amtrak had no current plans to detail the major issues and estimated daily delays and were sticking to the original schedule--and both people, off the record, agreed with me that it is an "absurd" situation to put out a schedule that they know cannot be achieved on almost every trip traveled........arrrgh.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

A friend from Minnesota says :

We drove on US10 from Anoka to Motley yesterday, paralleling the BNSF main line through Minnesota. We saw eight or nine stopped trains (I lost count) and exactly one moving train. A crew was arriving at one of the stopped trains just west of Little Falls as we passed by. No wonder the Builder has a hard time getting through.

And 48 hours later:

We made the return trip today; this time I counted more carefully. We saw a total of twenty trains in the roughly 110 miles between Motley and Anoka. Fifteen were stopped, five were moving. Four of the moving trains were a group of unit tanker trains, travelling westbound with about 1-2 miles of separation between them. The other was an eastbound mixed freight. Everything else was stopped.

At least one of the trains was there all weekend. It was headed by NS Heritage unit 1067 -- Reading Lines 'Bee Line Service.' We saw it on Friday and Sunday.

BNSF Railway is hiring about 25 new train conductors at each crew location. Can we say Melt Down?

 

[neroden]

BNSF's situation is reminiscent of the even larger "meltdown" which UP had during its merger, and the somewhat smaller mess CSX had after it took over half of Conrail... honestly at this point Amtrak is the least of their problems; BNSF execs made a huge error of judgment. In this weather it seems wrong to call it a "meltdown" -- maybe I'll call it the BNSF "freeze-up".

Well, BNSF has indeed upped the ante by doubling the amount of money they will spend over the next 12 months compared to what they had originally planned.

Good.

But as the BNSF folks here locally have told me in order to make a long term and permanent difference BNSF will be required to spend perhaps 4 or 5 times that amount on the Hi-Line over the next 3+ years. The "suits" at Berkshire Hathaway have yet to approve the big "Grand Plan" that would make this happen.

The way B.H. normally works, this shouldn't need approval from anyone above Carl Ice. BNSF execs can just decide to plow all income back into investment (pass none of it back to BH), or indeed to issue BNSF's own bonds. Buffett's policy traditionally has been only to interfere personally with insurance companies (that's his actual area of expertise), and with companies which got themselves tangled up in criminal activity or lost money for years on end.

Perhaps they will, but as of this month the folks in the trenches have been told no final decisions have been made on spending what is necessary for the long term fix.

Bleah.

 

[montana mike]

I believe that because the amount is so very large that even Mr. Ice is not allowed to make the call without at least getting the blessing or acknowledgment from the BH brass. My top local contact (fairly high up in the food chain) says we are talking about "well over a Billion dollars just for the Montana portion of the upgrades, which he said took the senior BNSF managers by surprise when the numbers were presented last summer.

Nothing that anyone can do about what was NOT done in the past. Only what BNSF will do going forward. I believe, after talking with MT BNSF folks, that there is not a crisis and they sense from the top management that they do not need to act with great urgency. They are making tons of money right now anyway and as has been stated previously here in this forum, Amtrak's woes are a very minor issue for BNSF's overall picture and plan. Since I do take the Empire Builders on a regular basis I have noticed some "modest" positive changes in ride and a few improvements to the trackage along the Hi-Line (especially around Williston), but nothing on the scale of what is needed to restore some semblance of on time performance for both freight and passenger services. btw-BNSF keeps reminding its freight customers that their goods will arrive anywhere from 24-48 hours past the "posted" schedules for the foreseeable future, so at least they have alerted these clients about the the issues effecting their deliveries.....

 

[neroden]

I believe, after talking with MT BNSF folks, that there is not a crisis and they sense from the top management that they do not need to act with great urgency.

Really, really, really stupid. I can't express how stupid this is. They're being grilled by the *state legislature* and they don't think there's a crisis? That is stupid.
Maybe I'll sell some more of my Berkshire Hathaway stock.

 

[neroden]

btw-BNSF keeps reminding its freight customers that their goods will arrive anywhere from 24-48 hours past the "posted" schedules for the foreseeable future, so at least they have alerted these clients about the the issues effecting their deliveries.....

Two responses come to mind1) Customers switch to UP or CP.

(2) Captive customers complain to the STB and/or the state government and/or Congress, demanding re-regulation of the railroads.

Scenario #2 is one which BNSF should be assiduously avoiding. Instead it is inviting it. Well, this is what I expect from the stupidity which rules corporate America today.