EB - Lateness Problems This Summer

[montana mike]

Excellent point on the travel advisories!

Sadly, it doesn't look like #7 will arrive early in SEA tomorrow-it's already losing time on the highline at every station and is now over 2 hours behind-and no heat issues there.

I am still having trouble getting a grip on the "heat slowdowns". I have been to both Pasco and Yakima in the summer--their "normal" high temps are in the 90's at this time of the year (and the forecast is only about 5 degrees above the norm), so one would think Amtrak would have built in this fact when scheduling the #27/28 trains? Also, what does the Sunset Ltd do when going thru the Desert SW in the summer, where temps are often 120 degrees?

 

[johnny.menhennet]

Excellent point on the travel advisories!

Desert SW in the summer, where temps are often 120 degrees?

At least in the deserts in California and Arizona, it goes through at night!

 

[Aaron]

Excellent point on the travel advisories!

Desert SW in the summer, where temps are often 120 degrees?

At least in the deserts in California and Arizona, it goes through at night!

I don't know anything about building a railroad, but since UP knows it's going to be that hot for a significant portion of the year, is it possible that they just build their road to withstand the heat? Different construction techniques or different alloy in the rails or something?

 

[Ispolkom]

I am still having trouble getting a grip on the "heat slowdowns". I have been to both Pasco and Yakima in the summer--their "normal" high temps are in the 90's at this time of the year (and the forecast is only about 5 degrees above the norm), so one would think Amtrak would have built in this fact when scheduling the #27/28 trains? Also, what does the Sunset Ltd do when going thru the Desert SW in the summer, where temps are often 120 degrees?

Slow orders because of heat are the railroad's call, not Amtrak's, and the Empire Builder is hardly the only train so delayed. In fact, the often-remarkably-late Sunset Limited is probably not the example you want to use for good on time performance at any time of the year. While its average lateness seems better than the Empire Builder, I notice that #1 managed to stagger into Los Angeles 5.5 hours late on July 4. And what's up with Yakima? Nice town, but Amtrak doesn't serve it.

 

[montana mike]

Yakima and Pasco were under the same heat advisory, that's all. They aren't that far apart.

 

[RRUserious]

One oasis of good news in a desert of bad concerning the EB: today's #7 was 13 minutes EARLY into Seattle today.

Except that the #7 train is on a whole different planet from the #8. Makes total sense out of the one way train trip. Train in the west direction, then something else in the east direction.

 

[yarrow]

7/27 supposed to arrive sea/pdx this morning running 5-6 hours late. 8 that is supposed to arrive chi this afternoon 7+ hours late. maybe you need to build a couple days into an eb round trip itinerary to compensate for amtrak's inability to operate its transportation sysytem in a timely manner

 

[Mackensen]

7/27 supposed to arrive sea/pdx this morning running 5-6 hours late. 8 that is supposed to arrive chi this afternoon 7+ hours late. maybe you need to build a couple days into an eb round trip itinerary to compensate for BNSF's inability to operate its transportation sysytem in a timely manner

Fixed that for you.

 

[Ispolkom]

Yakima and Pasco were under the same heat advisory, that's all. They aren't that far apart.

You are a Montanan, aren't you? I'd consider 85 miles to be a considerable distance, but that shows how long it's been since I've lived in the Big Sky State.

 

[Texan Eagle]

7/27 supposed to arrive sea/pdx this morning running 5-6 hours late. 8 that is supposed to arrive chi this afternoon 7+ hours late. maybe you need to build a couple days into an eb round trip itinerary to compensate for BNSF's inability to operate its transportation sysytem in a timely manner

Fixed that for you.

Mr Amtrak Apologist, the passenger buys a ticket from Amtrak, not BNSF. Trying to absolve Amtrak from all blame by merely stating the delays are BNSF's fault every time is silly. To the passenger it does not matter if the delay is the fault of BNSF or Godforsaken Railway Company of Timbaktoo. The passenger paid Amtrak for a service so there is nothing wrong in blaming Amtrak for the deficiency in service. If your flight gets 2 hours delayed on the tarmac due to airport congestion and you miss your connecting flight, you'd rush to the airline asking them to compensate for it by putting you on another flight, isn't it? If the airline said "it was XYZ Corporation operating the ATC tower at ABC airport's fault so we don't blame us" would you take that kindly?

 

[Ispolkom]

If the airline said "it was XYZ Corporation operating the ATC tower at ABC airport's fault so we don't blame us" would you take that kindly?

Isn't that sort of what Continental did with Continental Express Colgan flight 3407? I guess it worked for them, as even the wikipedia article is titled "Colgan Air Flight 3407."

 

[AmtrakBlue]

One oasis of good news in a desert of bad concerning the EB: today's #7 was 13 minutes EARLY into Seattle today.

Except that the #7 train is on a whole different planet from the #8. Makes total sense out of the one way train trip. Train in the west direction, then something else in the east direction.

But #7 turns into #8, so if it's late, then #8 will be late®

 

[yarrow]

7/27 supposed to arrive sea/pdx this morning running 5-6 hours late. 8 that is supposed to arrive chi this afternoon 7+ hours late. maybe you need to build a couple days into an eb round trip itinerary to compensate for BNSF's inability to operate its transportation sysytem in a timely manner

Fixed that for you.

don't appreciate your cute little "edit" of my post to make it appear to say what it didn't. i don't know what the otp for bnsf trains to chi or sea has been the past couple months. be interesting if that info is available.

 

[RRUserious]

But #7 turns into #8, so if it's late, then #8 will be late®

Well that could be true. The point is that #7/27 have a LOT better record of being on time. Also for those whose destination is the end of the routes, the lateness matters less. #8/28 terminate in Chicago, and the zero percent ontime record (June) impacts connections in a big, big way. Those scheduled on the Capitol Limited have minimal chance of being there when their train departs. I'd say the percentage of times that #8 is late due to lateness the other way is small enough that its not an interesting discussion.

Another thing I realized today is that the ontime record is only half the story. The other half is the percent of connections made. That's the really sad part for passengers. They reserve and pay for a seat on a train that leaves before they arrive. Amtrak can legally absolve themselves of responsibility (all travel companies are good at this), but it is a severe blow to the dreams some people have of a good trip. And the "comfort" offered by those who back Amtrak's response through thick and thin is not going to build customer base for railroads.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

But #7 turns into #8, so if it's late, then #8 will be late®

Well that could be true.

No, it is true. 7 has six hours to turn into 8, while 8 has 22 hours to turn into 7. Hmm... which one has a better chance of leaving on time? This is a hard one...

 

[montana mike]

The 85 miles between the two cities is in both the same Meteorological zone, thus my comment. I have been to both places and they experience very similar weather throughout the year. Yes, I live in MT and 85 miles is NOTHING. We commute longer distances sometimes.

Yakima and Pasco were under the same heat advisory, that's all. They aren't that far apart.

You are a Montanan, aren't you? I'd consider 85 miles to be a considerable distance, but that shows how long it's been since I've lived in the Big Sky State.

 

[NY Penn]

Is there a reason why 7(10) wasn't turned in Spokane?

 

[RRUserious]

No, it is true. 7 has six hours to turn into 8, while 8 has 22 hours to turn into 7. Hmm... which one has a better chance of leaving on time? This is a hard one...

Haha. Empire Builder can't make a connection with itself! That has to be the limit.

 

[Mackensen]

7/27 supposed to arrive sea/pdx this morning running 5-6 hours late. 8 that is supposed to arrive chi this afternoon 7+ hours late. maybe you need to build a couple days into an eb round trip itinerary to compensate for BNSF's inability to operate its transportation sysytem in a timely manner

Fixed that for you.

don't appreciate your cute little "edit" of my post to make it appear to say what it didn't. i don't know what the otp for bnsf trains to chi or sea has been the past couple months. be interesting if that info is available.

You and RRSerious missed my broader point (and my attempt at levity, sigh). Amtrak's in a situation that's not comparable to that of the airlines. BNSF owns almost the entire route used by the Empire Builder. Amtrak is at their mercy for dispatching. If BNSF has a derailment there's nothing Amtrak can do. BNSF has had a pair of derailments in the last couple weeks which has had a cascading effect on the Builder because of the limited time available to turn it in Seattle. Airport delays aren't really in the same ballpark, especially since a single airplane doesn't have to make 30-40 stops over a fixed multiple day schedule, with each delay compounding the last.

Amtrak can run the Empire Builder on time. Up until a few years ago the Builder had the best on-time performance of any of the long-distance trains, and that's not damning with faint praise: it was actually good. Since then a series of natural calamities, increased freight interference, and deteriorating track have conspired to reduce the Builder's reliability. Amtrak has very little to do with this, and very little power to influence it.

I refuse to blame Amtrak for problems that it doesn't cause and can't solve. If the Builder is late two hours because of equipment failure in Chicago, that's Amtrak's fault. If the Builder is late eight hours because there's flooding on the Hi Line, that's an Act of God. If the Builder is sixteen hours late because BNSF put a train on the ground in Montana, then that's BNSF's fault. Amtrak contracted with them to provide a service and they couldn't fulfill it. Most of the time they can. When I'm subject to freight interference I do blame the freight railroads. They have both legal and contractual obligations that they're not fulfilling. BNSF is probably the best of lot; Amtrak's currently suing Canadian National for willful mismanagement.

Let's have a hypothetical. You're on Greyhound. The bridge over the interstate has washed out and/or there's a flaming car wreck. You're delayed. Do you blame Greyhound for this? I sure wouldn't.

 

[Mackensen]

7/27 supposed to arrive sea/pdx this morning running 5-6 hours late. 8 that is supposed to arrive chi this afternoon 7+ hours late. maybe you need to build a couple days into an eb round trip itinerary to compensate for BNSF's inability to operate its transportation sysytem in a timely manner

Fixed that for you.

Mr Amtrak Apologist, the passenger buys a ticket from Amtrak, not BNSF. Trying to absolve Amtrak from all blame by merely stating the delays are BNSF's fault every time is silly. To the passenger it does not matter if the delay is the fault of BNSF or Godforsaken Railway Company of Timbaktoo. The passenger paid Amtrak for a service so there is nothing wrong in blaming Amtrak for the deficiency in service. If your flight gets 2 hours delayed on the tarmac due to airport congestion and you miss your connecting flight, you'd rush to the airline asking them to compensate for it by putting you on another flight, isn't it? If the airline said "it was XYZ Corporation operating the ATC tower at ABC airport's fault so we don't blame us" would you take that kindly?

This seems beside the point. Amtrak will fulfill the terms of its transportation contract, which is to move you from point A to point B, regardless of why the delay took place. Amtrak doesn't refuse to put you on a later train or issue a refund because the problem lay with BNSF; your analogy suggests that you think that's the case. I think Amtrak's entirely within its right to explain why the delays occurred, and I'm seen them get slagged here and elsewhere for not providing sufficient information. The better the public understands why it is that trains don't run on time (equipment shortages, freight interference, insufficient infrastructure) the better off we're all going to be.

 

[JayPea]

7/27 supposed to arrive sea/pdx this morning running 5-6 hours late. 8 that is supposed to arrive chi this afternoon 7+ hours late. maybe you need to build a couple days into an eb round trip itinerary to compensate for BNSF's inability to operate its transportation sysytem in a timely manner

Fixed that for you.

don't appreciate your cute little "edit" of my post to make it appear to say what it didn't. i don't know what the otp for bnsf trains to chi or sea has been the past couple months. be interesting if that info is available.

You and RRSerious missed my broader point (and my attempt at levity, sigh). Amtrak's in a situation that's not comparable to that of the airlines. BNSF owns almost the entire route used by the Empire Builder. Amtrak is at their mercy for dispatching. If BNSF has a derailment there's nothing Amtrak can do. BNSF has had a pair of derailments in the last couple weeks which has had a cascading effect on the Builder because of the limited time available to turn it in Seattle. Airport delays aren't really in the same ballpark, especially since a single airplane doesn't have to make 30-40 stops over a fixed multiple day schedule, with each delay compounding the last.

Amtrak can run the Empire Builder on time. Up until a few years ago the Builder had the best on-time performance of any of the long-distance trains, and that's not damning with faint praise: it was actually good. Since then a series of natural calamities, increased freight interference, and deteriorating track have conspired to reduce the Builder's reliability. Amtrak has very little to do with this, and very little power to influence it.

I refuse to blame Amtrak for problems that it doesn't cause and can't solve. If the Builder is late two hours because of equipment failure in Chicago, that's Amtrak's fault. If the Builder is late eight hours because there's flooding on the Hi Line, that's an Act of God. If the Builder is sixteen hours late because BNSF put a train on the ground in Montana, then that's BNSF's fault. Amtrak contracted with them to provide a service and they couldn't fulfill it. Most of the time they can. When I'm subject to freight interference I do blame the freight railroads. They have both legal and contractual obligations that they're not fulfilling. BNSF is probably the best of lot; Amtrak's currently suing Canadian National for willful mismanagement.

Let's have a hypothetical. You're on Greyhound. The bridge over the interstate has washed out and/or there's a flaming car wreck. You're delayed. Do you blame Greyhound for this? I sure wouldn't.

I couldn't have said it better. I was on the EB Portland - Spokane last Sunday that got into Spokane 1 hr and 40 minutes late. We first were stopped on a siding just outside of Vancouver to wait for a freight that was run around us. How's that Amtrak's fault? Then we had to run 25 mph almost to Bingen-White Salmon due to heat restrictions imposed by the BNSF dispatchers. How's that Amtrak's fault? We did get up to speed after that, only to run into some lesser heat restrictions and stoppages due to freight trains run ahead of us. How's that Amtrak's fault? We got into Pasco over 2 hrs late, and beyond Pasco, had more heat restrictions and more stoppages due to freights. How is any of that Amtrak's fault??? We actually made up about 25 minutes from Pasco to Spokane.

I have no idea what is causing such massive delays on the Hi-Line. I can't imagine, though, that Amtrak is putting along at 25 mph or sitting on sidings for 45 minutes to an hour just to pi$$ off the passengers. I am fully aware the first-time traveler on Amtrak isn't aware of this. All they know is their train is hours late. But unless it's a mechanical failure, which Amtrak very well has responsibility for, I don't see how we can blame Amtrak for ALL their woes. I'd like concrete answers as to what Amtrak can do about heat slow orders, about derailments, about freight congestion, and about trackwork and the condition of the rails. I'd also like to hear how those are all Amtrak's fault and no one else's.

 

[montana mike]

Post script to this discussion--#8 looks like it will pull into CHI around 1 AM on 7/13--almost 9 hours late. Almost not worth going to a hotel if you are heading out early in the AM. They lost time almost the entire way. #7 didn't do much better pulling into SEA and PDX late in the afternoon instead of around 10AM, both around 6 hrs late, which of course made the #8/28 super late in their departures--perpetuating the problems. I spoke with a local friend who works for BNSF (engineer) and he said other than the derailment over a week ago, he has seen no issues of significance on the Hi-line since then and the freights appear to be moving normally. He did say freight traffic, especially energy and grain related, appears to be heavier this year.

 

[RRUserious]

Stretches of the track in North Dakota-Montana almost arent fit for passenger travel. At SOME point, if they want rail traffic, they will HAVE to do some rebuilding, just as the highlways, at every level, have had to be rebuilt many, many times.

 

[yarrow]

7/27 supposed to arrive sea/pdx this morning running 5-6 hours late. 8 that is supposed to arrive chi this afternoon 7+ hours late. maybe you need to build a couple days into an eb round trip itinerary to compensate for BNSF's inability to operate its transportation sysytem in a timely manner

Fixed that for you.

don't appreciate your cute little "edit" of my post to make it appear to say what it didn't. i don't know what the otp for bnsf trains to chi or sea has been the past couple months. be interesting if that info is available.

You and RRSerious missed my broader point (and my attempt at levity, sigh). Amtrak's in a situation that's not comparable to that of the airlines. BNSF owns almost the entire route used by the Empire Builder. Amtrak is at their mercy for dispatching. If BNSF has a derailment there's nothing Amtrak can do. BNSF has had a pair of derailments in the last couple weeks which has had a cascading effect on the Builder because of the limited time available to turn it in Seattle. Airport delays aren't really in the same ballpark, especially since a single airplane doesn't have to make 30-40 stops over a fixed multiple day schedule, with each delay compounding the last.

Amtrak can run the Empire Builder on time. Up until a few years ago the Builder had the best on-time performance of any of the long-distance trains, and that's not damning with faint praise: it was actually good. Since then a series of natural calamities, increased freight interference, and deteriorating track have conspired to reduce the Builder's reliability. Amtrak has very little to do with this, and very little power to influence it.

I refuse to blame Amtrak for problems that it doesn't cause and can't solve. If the Builder is late two hours because of equipment failure in Chicago, that's Amtrak's fault. If the Builder is late eight hours because there's flooding on the Hi Line, that's an Act of God. If the Builder is sixteen hours late because BNSF put a train on the ground in Montana, then that's BNSF's fault. Amtrak contracted with them to provide a service and they couldn't fulfill it. Most of the time they can. When I'm subject to freight interference I do blame the freight railroads. They have both legal and contractual obligations that they're not fulfilling. BNSF is probably the best of lot; Amtrak's currently suing Canadian National for willful mismanagement.

Let's have a hypothetical. You're on Greyhound. The bridge over the interstate has washed out and/or there's a flaming car wreck. You're delayed. Do you blame Greyhound for this? I sure wouldn't.

I couldn't have said it better. I was on the EB Portland - Spokane last Sunday that got into Spokane 1 hr and 40 minutes late. We first were stopped on a siding just outside of Vancouver to wait for a freight that was run around us. How's that Amtrak's fault? Then we had to run 25 mph almost to Bingen-White Salmon due to heat restrictions imposed by the BNSF dispatchers. How's that Amtrak's fault? We did get up to speed after that, only to run into some lesser heat restrictions and stoppages due to freight trains run ahead of us. How's that Amtrak's fault? We got into Pasco over 2 hrs late, and beyond Pasco, had more heat restrictions and more stoppages due to freights. How is any of that Amtrak's fault??? We actually made up about 25 minutes from Pasco to Spokane.

I have no idea what is causing such massive delays on the Hi-Line. I can't imagine, though, that Amtrak is putting along at 25 mph or sitting on sidings for 45 minutes to an hour just to pi$$ off the passengers. I am fully aware the first-time traveler on Amtrak isn't aware of this. All they know is their train is hours late. But unless it's a mechanical failure, which Amtrak very well has responsibility for, I don't see how we can blame Amtrak for ALL their woes. I'd like concrete answers as to what Amtrak can do about heat slow orders, about derailments, about freight congestion, and about trackwork and the condition of the rails. I'd also like to hear how those are all Amtrak's fault and no one else's.

i dunno, JayPea, 8/28 had a 0% otp into chi last month and i don't think this month is starting out much better. i cannot think of another organization that we might say "that's ok, it's not their fault". i think amtrak's response is a big part of their problem. as has been discussed, how about an alert on the website, how about calling ticketed passengers to let them know that the odds are they will be late into chi, how about a public action plan from amtrak as to how they are dealing with the delays. i ride amtrak because i love trains. i cannot imagine riding amtrak if i actually had some place i needed to be

 

[JayPea]

7/27 supposed to arrive sea/pdx this morning running 5-6 hours late. 8 that is supposed to arrive chi this afternoon 7+ hours late. maybe you need to build a couple days into an eb round trip itinerary to compensate for BNSF's inability to operate its transportation sysytem in a timely manner

Fixed that for you.

don't appreciate your cute little "edit" of my post to make it appear to say what it didn't. i don't know what the otp for bnsf trains to chi or sea has been the past couple months. be interesting if that info is available.

You and RRSerious missed my broader point (and my attempt at levity, sigh). Amtrak's in a situation that's not comparable to that of the airlines. BNSF owns almost the entire route used by the Empire Builder. Amtrak is at their mercy for dispatching. If BNSF has a derailment there's nothing Amtrak can do. BNSF has had a pair of derailments in the last couple weeks which has had a cascading effect on the Builder because of the limited time available to turn it in Seattle. Airport delays aren't really in the same ballpark, especially since a single airplane doesn't have to make 30-40 stops over a fixed multiple day schedule, with each delay compounding the last.

Amtrak can run the Empire Builder on time. Up until a few years ago the Builder had the best on-time performance of any of the long-distance trains, and that's not damning with faint praise: it was actually good. Since then a series of natural calamities, increased freight interference, and deteriorating track have conspired to reduce the Builder's reliability. Amtrak has very little to do with this, and very little power to influence it.

I refuse to blame Amtrak for problems that it doesn't cause and can't solve. If the Builder is late two hours because of equipment failure in Chicago, that's Amtrak's fault. If the Builder is late eight hours because there's flooding on the Hi Line, that's an Act of God. If the Builder is sixteen hours late because BNSF put a train on the ground in Montana, then that's BNSF's fault. Amtrak contracted with them to provide a service and they couldn't fulfill it. Most of the time they can. When I'm subject to freight interference I do blame the freight railroads. They have both legal and contractual obligations that they're not fulfilling. BNSF is probably the best of lot; Amtrak's currently suing Canadian National for willful mismanagement.

Let's have a hypothetical. You're on Greyhound. The bridge over the interstate has washed out and/or there's a flaming car wreck. You're delayed. Do you blame Greyhound for this? I sure wouldn't.

I couldn't have said it better. I was on the EB Portland - Spokane last Sunday that got into Spokane 1 hr and 40 minutes late. We first were stopped on a siding just outside of Vancouver to wait for a freight that was run around us. How's that Amtrak's fault? Then we had to run 25 mph almost to Bingen-White Salmon due to heat restrictions imposed by the BNSF dispatchers. How's that Amtrak's fault? We did get up to speed after that, only to run into some lesser heat restrictions and stoppages due to freight trains run ahead of us. How's that Amtrak's fault? We got into Pasco over 2 hrs late, and beyond Pasco, had more heat restrictions and more stoppages due to freights. How is any of that Amtrak's fault??? We actually made up about 25 minutes from Pasco to Spokane.

I have no idea what is causing such massive delays on the Hi-Line. I can't imagine, though, that Amtrak is putting along at 25 mph or sitting on sidings for 45 minutes to an hour just to pi$$ off the passengers. I am fully aware the first-time traveler on Amtrak isn't aware of this. All they know is their train is hours late. But unless it's a mechanical failure, which Amtrak very well has responsibility for, I don't see how we can blame Amtrak for ALL their woes. I'd like concrete answers as to what Amtrak can do about heat slow orders, about derailments, about freight congestion, and about trackwork and the condition of the rails. I'd also like to hear how those are all Amtrak's fault and no one else's.

i dunno, JayPea, 8/28 had a 0% otp into chi last month and i don't think this month is starting out much better. i cannot think of another organization that we might say "that's ok, it's not their fault". i think amtrak's response is a big part of their problem. as has been discussed, how about an alert on the website, how about calling ticketed passengers to let them know that the odds are they will be late into chi, how about a public action plan from amtrak as to how they are dealing with the delays. i ride amtrak because i love trains. i cannot imagine riding amtrak if i actually had some place i needed to be

Amtrak's response could and should be better. That part I agree with. But I would still like to know, if and when the delays are at the feet of BNSF, what Amtrak can do about those.