e-Tickets

[Blackwolf]

Perhaps you could expound on why you don't like the sound of it; it sounds like a great way to save time, money, and effort.

If you consider the number of diners who aren't in a sleeper, and don't pay with credit or debit card, it can't be a whole lot of people.

Small or not, I too dislike the idea that cold hard cash would be viewed as 'worthless'. There should be, in no way shape or form, a manner in which cash is devalued. I'll not get into the belief system I have between so-called "virtual money" and true currency, but the day I walk into an establishment with currency in hand and am turned away because I don't wield plastic is a SAD day indeed. There should always be that option, no matter how small of a percentage of users actually utilize it.

There are plenty of ways to make electronic and physical currency co-exist. Even on a moving train.

 

[gatelouse]

Interesting--one barcode for the entire itinerary rather than per train. Unless they're encoding each leg of a roundtrip journey into the barcode, which I figure is unlikely, this requires a lot of extra lift from the IT backend.

I presume this design decision was made so that people could make last-minute changes and upgrades without having to reprint the barcode. But this presumably requires a virtual manifest to be sent and updated wirelessly to each conductor's scanning device.

 

[Acela150]

The Manifest is updated frequently on the iPhone software that they use. So that conductors have a count of who is getting on/off where and how many are currently on board. Another thing is that the conductor may fill out service requests on the phone when it is brought to their attention. So a toilet breaks they put that request in and a worker is at the next longer stop i.e. NYP, WAS, ORL, DEN, etc. Or if it's serious and can't be fixed enroute then the report is waiting at the Termination yard.

 

[daveyb99]

I think e-tickets for Amtrak is great. They have worked well for airlines for years.

... but AMTRAK still limps along on a proprietory computer system. Just think of the improvements if the contracted with an airline for their res system

 

[afigg]

Perhaps you could expound on why you don't like the sound of it; it sounds like a great way to save time, money, and effort.

If you consider the number of diners who aren't in a sleeper, and don't pay with credit or debit card, it can't be a whole lot of people.

Small or not, I too dislike the idea that cold hard cash would be viewed as 'worthless'. There should be, in no way shape or form, a manner in which cash is devalued. I'll not get into the belief system I have between so-called "virtual money" and true currency, but the day I walk into an establishment with currency in hand and am turned away because I don't wield plastic is a SAD day indeed. There should always be that option, no matter how small of a percentage of users actually utilize it.

There are plenty of ways to make electronic and physical currency co-exist. Even on a moving train.

As stated in the PIP report, the plan is to, by converting to cashless operation, to extend the hours of the diner car and stay open to sell beverages. Hence club-diner. The menu of the lounge/diner-light car would be upgraded as part of the pilot program. From the description, the lounge car would still take cash, so people can still buy food there. Whether they might consider selling prepaid tickets in the lounge car for those with only cash for meals in the club-diner is not stated. The benefit to Amtrak is to eliminate cash handling in the diner and thus save time & cash losses.

The club-diner plan is to be tried out on only the Lake Shore Limited, but I expect it will be expanded to all the LD train afterwards.

 

[TCRT]

I think e-tickets for Amtrak is great. They have worked well for airlines for years.

... but AMTRAK still limps along on a proprietory computer system. Just think of the improvements if the contracted with an airline for their res system

They're not the only transportation company shackled to an old reservation system - Southwest Airlines has a system that can't still can't handle international flights, for example.

 

[NorthCoastHiawatha]

Perhaps you could expound on why you don't like the sound of it; it sounds like a great way to save time, money, and effort.

If you consider the number of diners who aren't in a sleeper, and don't pay with credit or debit card, it can't be a whole lot of people.

Sure I have a credit/debit card but that doesn't necessarily mean I always want to use it, sometimes I prefer paying cash.

 

[TCRT]

Do you have any photos of the eTickets??

See the sample on THIS PAGE.

My home-printed ticket looked exactly like the one in the link above (including the destinations, in fact). Here's what I got when I printed my reservation from a Quik Trak kiosk, with appropriate bits of information blurred out (including the barcodes, but it's fairly easy to figure out where those used to be).

 

[OBS]

Perhaps you could expound on why you don't like the sound of it; it sounds like a great way to save time, money, and effort.

If you consider the number of diners who aren't in a sleeper, and don't pay with credit or debit card, it can't be a whole lot of people.

Sure I have a credit/debit card but that doesn't necessarily mean I always want to use it, sometimes I prefer paying cash.

There was a big push a few months back, to make the Acela Cafe's cashless. The talk seems to have quieted down lately....

 

[PaulM]

Interesting--one barcode for the entire itinerary rather than per train. Unless they're encoding each leg of a roundtrip journey into the barcode, which I figure is unlikely, this requires a lot of extra lift from the IT backend.

I presume this design decision was made so that people could make last-minute changes and upgrades without having to reprint the barcode. But this presumably requires a virtual manifest to be sent and updated wirelessly to each conductor's scanning device.

I'm just guessing here; but I suspect the bar code is simply a link to the reservation. It's conventional wisdom here that the reason e-Ticketing took so long to implement is that it requires real-time contact with the reservation system. If this is the case then you wouldn't need the manifest to be stored in the conductor's device, just as a station agent doesn't have much information stored in their terminal. Or that your reservations would be stored in your computer.

 

[afigg]

Sure I have a credit/debit card but that doesn't necessarily mean I always want to use it, sometimes I prefer paying cash.

There was a big push a few months back, to make the Acela Cafe's cashless. The talk seems to have quieted down lately....

The Acela Café cars have been converted to new Point-Of-Sale (POS) systems with programmable touch screens for entering the product sold and integrated credit/debit card readers. All of the café and dining cars are to be upgraded to new POS systems by late 2012, replacing the now obsolete electronic cash registers. Allows for direct tracking of sales and inventory and should cut costs & losses due to pilferage. Nothing radical here, Amtrak is just catching up to the 21st century to what the fast food and restaurant chains have had for some years.

The Club-diner project on the Lake Shore Limited presumably will not start until after all the café and diner cars that may be deployed on the LSL have been upgraded to POS systems. So it will be easier and faster for people to pay with credit/debit cards with detailed printed receipts. For the coach passenger who want to pay with cash, they can still buy food in the café/diner-light car. Some may not care for the change, but if Amtrak can reduce the total loss for food & beverage sales, better to switch to cashless diner operations than to directly cut food services.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I see people paying with cash all the time. If Amtrak decides they don't need or want cash customers like me anymore I may decide to withhold my (apparently unwanted) cash tips as well. No cash sales on a two hour flight is one thing. No cash sales on a twelve hour train ride is something else entirely. Amtrak could be shooting themselves in the foot with an 'our way or the highway' attitude like this.

 

[AlanB]

I was just on the Silver Service over the second weekend this month going up & down to the mini-Gathering in Florida. I can assure you that getting rid of cash isn't going to make things faster. In both cases, going north & south, I paid cash for my wine and used less of the LSA's time to do so than those paying for their liquor by credit card used. In my case the LSA just pulled out his stash of bills and made change and he was done in less than 30 seconds, if that.

For those paying by credit card, the LSA had to pick up their card and walk back to the prep area. Already he'd used up more time than he did with me paying cash. Then he swipped the card and typed in the amount and started walking back carrying the portable card reader. If he was really lucky, the first receipt printed maybe a few seconds after he got back to the table. But most of the time he stood around for at least a minute or two before the connection was made and the charge authorized.

Then he had to wait for the customer to sign and for the second receipt, ie. the customer's to print, before he could walk back and put down the CC machine.

In my case while walking back the LSA was carrying dishes cleared from a table.

So there isn't anyway on earth that a cashless diner will be faster than with that does take cash. And theft is a non-issue!

 

[sechs]

I think that you're discounting the time spent at the end of the day accounting for all of that cash. If the dining cars move to a totally digital system for orders and payment, reconciliation just involves hitting "print" somewhere.

 

[Hotblack Desiato]

Theft is never a non-issue when cash is involved.

 

[afigg]

Theft is never a non-issue when cash is involved.

True. There is a Amtrak OIG (Office of Inspector General) report from June, 2011 with the catchy title "Food and Beverage Service: Further Actions Needed to Address Revenue Losses Due to Control Weaknesses and Gaps" which is available on the OIG website. Interesting reports on there. Along with some silly press releases. We recovered a credit card machine, stop the presses!

The OIG made findings and recommendations that are likely a factor in the push for POS system and the cashless club-diner experiment.

Some excerpts:

"Between March 2003 and January 2010, we identified 903 theft, dishonesty, and policy/procedure violations by 306 LSAs, and issued 447 administrative referrals to Amtrak managers. The recurring schemes described in this report involve the falsification of documents to conceal missing food and beverage revenues and inventories."

"Shorting cash register sales. This scheme involves selling items for their retail value and ringing up smaller amounts, with LSAs pocketing the difference."

"Most domestic airlines have implemented in-flight cashless sales. During tests of cashless flights, airlines reported, customers spent more when using charge cards. Airlines were also able to simplify in-flight procedures for their flight attendants so that they could focus more on customer service and safety. However, according to Transportation Department officials, on-board cashless sales may not be appropriate for some selected Amtrak routes and trains due to the unique nature of the rail passenger industry."

"We recommend that the President and Chief Executive Officer direct that actions be taken to:

1. Establish a pilot project of cashless food and beverage sales on selected routes and trains to determine the short- and long-term effects on operations loss prevention, revenues, costs, customer satisfaction, and the on-board work environment."

 

[Bob Dylan]

Hate to disagree with THE MAN, but CASH is ALWAYS an issue as was said! I personally use my AGR MC for everything on Amtrak except Alcohol, (for the Double Points) but tip in CASH! For whatever reasons lots of Pax that ride Amtrak either don't have Cards or even Bank Accounts, and pay with Cash! I too would hate to see the Good Ole American Dollar scorned as the Airlines are doing! Imagine what people that deal in CASH businesses (ie Bars,Resturants,Taxis, Hookers etc. would think of a Cashless Society! :lol: ) THEFT is ALWAYS an Issue when it comes to CASH! :excl: :excl: :excl: (Stealing is the Oldest Profession, not Prostitution :help: !!!)

 

[amamba]

I love the idea of going cashless. It's the 21st century folks - not 1962. Cash is becoming obsolete. Amtrak should embrace things that will

Save mine and time in the long run.

 

[AlanB]

I think that you're discounting the time spent at the end of the day accounting for all of that cash. If the dining cars move to a totally digital system for orders and payment, reconciliation just involves hitting "print" somewhere.

First, since that would happen at the end of the day, who cares? It's not interfering with service and Amtrak is still paying that LSA until the end of the trip anyhow. So it really doesn't matter.

Second, if it takes an LSA more than 15 minutes to count the cash, then they're doing something wrong. I used to manage the accounting office & cash room at a JCPenny years ago and I could count $30k to $40K from 50 cash registers in about 4 hours. And that was 30 years ago before the new fangled bill counters you see tellers using in a bank today. And I only worked the cash room if someone was sick or on vacation, so I didn't get nearly as much practice as the two people who worked for me in the count out room normally.

The rest of the "accounting" that they have to do will still occur without regard to whether they only handle credit or both credit & cash. And POS will help cut down on that work.

So again, cash isn't a big deal.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I love the idea of going cashless. It's the 21st century folks - not 1962. Cash is becoming obsolete. Amtrak should embrace things that will Save mine and time in the long run.

I can certainly understand your desire to use a card instead of cash.

What I cannot understand is your desire to take the option of paying with cash away from everyone else.

Isn't that the whole point of living in a free society?

What do you care if I choose to pay with a card or not?

I have some moral and ehtical issues with how card transactions are handled behind the scenes, but you still don't see me calling for their removal as an option for payment by those who strongly prefer them.

If the age of the payment system is the most important factor then I suppose I should point out that passive unencrypted magnetic strips are anything but modern. Nor are they the slightest bit difficult to abuse or clone. Last I read, 21st century payment systems were typified by the inclusion of smart security chips that make use of active RFID (Radio Frequency IDentification) technology over NFC (Near Field Communication) systems which can initiate and remit financial transactions through cell phones. You know the kind of phone I'm talking about. The phones that are almost impossible to keep charged more than a single day of active use. The kind that require numerous updates to their firmware, frequent patches to their operating system and routine upgrades to their applications. The kind of phone with a 300+ page manual that tries in vain to describe how it's supposed to work to a novice. Nope, I can't see any problem forcefully ditching these ancient unecrypted magnetic cards we still carry around so that we can finally welcome a true 21st century upgrade to the dining car table!

:lol:

 

[printman2000]

Question about the iPhones that are being used, are they using the basic iOS that comes on all iPhones, using special iOS that Apple developed, or have they put their own custom iOS onto the iPhone? If they use the normal iOS, then how do they go about getting their Amtrak apps on them without putting them in the app store?

 

[amamba]

Texas Sunset, I do agree that some of that RFID stuff is scary. It is very easy for someone to steal your credit card information from one of those cards.

I guess I needed to take a step back from my privileged position to realize that not everyone does have access to credit/debit cards.

Personally it makes me crazy when places don't accept credit cards, because I never carry cash, so you are right, why should I want to take an option away from someone.

 

[transit54]

Question about the iPhones that are being used, are they using the basic iOS that comes on all iPhones, using special iOS that Apple developed, or have they put their own custom iOS onto the iPhone? If they use the normal iOS, then how do they go about getting their Amtrak apps on them without putting them in the app store?

They use standard iOS. Apple has a program for businesses that allows them to create apps in house and deploy them just to company phones without going through the App Store. I used to have a good link to the program, which I can't find at the moment, but you can see Apple advertising in-house development of apps for business here:

http://www.apple.com/iphone/business/apps/in-house/

 

[sechs]

First, since that would happen at the end of the day, who cares? It's not interfering with service and Amtrak is still paying that LSA until the end of the trip anyhow. So it really doesn't matter.

Seriously, you should care. Time spent dealing with cash is time not doing something else. Even additional rest is valuable on a multi-day trip. The cumulative numbers of hours doing these kinds of tasks every year is surely enormous.

Second, if it takes an LSA more than 15 minutes to count the cash, then they're doing something wrong. I used to manage the accounting office & cash room at a JCPenny years ago and I could count $30k to $40K from 50 cash registers in about 4 hours. And that was 30 years ago before the new fangled bill counters you see tellers using in a bank today. And I only worked the cash room if someone was sick or on vacation, so I didn't get nearly as much practice as the two people who worked for me in the count out room normally.

There must be a lot of LSAs doing something wrong, then. I don't know what your task was, but there's a real difference between "counting" and "accounting." And, at any rate, I haven't ever seen a bill or coin counting machine on a train; they do it all by hand. Sometimes, they don't even seem to have calculators; now that's old school.

 

[AlanB]

First, since that would happen at the end of the day, who cares? It's not interfering with service and Amtrak is still paying that LSA until the end of the trip anyhow. So it really doesn't matter.

Seriously, you should care. Time spent dealing with cash is time not doing something else. Even additional rest is valuable on a multi-day trip. The cumulative numbers of hours doing these kinds of tasks every year is surely enormous.

They're going to spend that time regardless, whether it's dealing with all the charge slips or a combination of charge slips & cash. And if they eliminate all cash, it creates other problems for Amtrak. Like how to get a charged tip to the SA; people who want change to tip the SA's & SCA's; etc.

Second, if it takes an LSA more than 15 minutes to count the cash, then they're doing something wrong. I used to manage the accounting office & cash room at a JCPenny years ago and I could count $30k to $40K from 50 cash registers in about 4 hours. And that was 30 years ago before the new fangled bill counters you see tellers using in a bank today. And I only worked the cash room if someone was sick or on vacation, so I didn't get nearly as much practice as the two people who worked for me in the count out room normally.

There must be a lot of LSAs doing something wrong, then. I don't know what your task was, but there's a real difference between "counting" and "accounting." And, at any rate, I haven't ever seen a bill or coin counting machine on a train; they do it all by hand. Sometimes, they don't even seem to have calculators; now that's old school.

It was a whole lot harder than what the LSA has to do, and it was "Counting" & "Accounting". Insert key in lock on top of bag, removed all bills, checks, gift certs. Count the number of each denomination and enter on a special count sheet. Extend sheet. Repeat for 50+ bags. And in spare time deal with checks and gift certs too. There was plenty more to do after that, things like strapping the bills prior to making up the deposit and various other things.

Even on the slowest of sales days I had to count more money than an LSA would ever have to count.