Dreamstar overnight train between San Francisco and Los Angeles?

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So you would have a night time Coast Starlight with moon light views of the coast ?

Stops - Salinas (Monterey) - San Luis Obispo - Santa Barbara - others ?

Would it be competitive with air travel between the points SFO (OAK-SJC-BUR-ONT-SNA-LGB) LAX ?

Deluxe sleeper accommodations would have to be less expensive than first class air travel ?

Serious doubts about this - also - competition with hi-speed rail requiring no sleepers ?
 
I think one of the principal challenges here will be coming up with a sleeper fleet. Unlike in Europe where there seems to be a pool of older sleepers that companies like European Sleeper can obtain and refurbish, no such car pool exists here - the Heritage fleet has long since gone, except perhaps some beat up cars from VIA might be available someday. So they will probably have to build sleepers out of old commuter bilevels which is going to be more expensive. It will be challenging getting investors willing to finance this.
 
AmtrakMaineiac said:
I think one of the principal challenges here will be coming up with a sleeper fleet. Unlike in Europe where there seems to be a pool of older sleepers that companies like European Sleeper can obtain and refurbish, no such car pool exists here - the Heritage fleet has long since gone, except perhaps some beat up cars from VIA might be available someday. So they will probably have to build sleepers out of old commuter bilevels which is going to be more expensive. It will be challenging getting investors willing to finance this.
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There are a number of the old Santa Fe Hi Level cars on the market. They will need to have their interiors gutted and replaced with sleeping accommodation which may or may not be doable quickly.

Of course, how they will satisfy ADA requirements is another matter.
 
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railiner said:
In the huge travel market between the two endpoints, I think there is room for this "niche" business, but based on the track record of other private startups in history, I doubt they have the 'deep pockets' that would be necessary to make it go... 🤷‍♂️
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It's such a niche market that even if it could run in the black, I suspect it wouldn't make enough money to meet the expectations of today's investors. Remember unlike the Night Owl on the NEC, this route is heavily populated only at the end points. The Night Owl had a lot of business besides sleeper passengers making the whole overnight run. Also, the Night Owl was part of an entire Washington-Boston rail transport ecosystem, which probably supplied extra support, even if only allowing Amtrak to distribute it's overhead costs on numerous other trains also running on the route. All this proposed service can offer is a nostalgia trip, and those days are gone forever.
 
They would need a high density economy option like Nightjet's sleeping pods, which would be easier to pull off if the rolling stock is only used overnight.
 
Much as I would like to see it, I have to ask the following question. I will grant that both endpoints are pretty liberal areas. Would they sing on to "flight shaming" as so much of Europe has?
 
WWW said:
Deluxe sleeper accommodations would have to be less expensive than first class air travel ?
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No, needs to less than the cost of air travel plus a hotel night.

A few years back, I did a fun trip to finally ride a train around Horseshoe Curve. Booked the Pennsylvanian from Pittsburgh to Newark. Then I needed to fly from Chicago and find a hotel in Pittsburgh for the night before. Found the most cost effective way to do that was instead take the Capitol Limited in a roomette. At least on that day, transportation, dinner, and a bed for less than the cost of a hotel in Pittsburgh.
 
MARC Rider said:
Remember unlike the Night Owl on the NEC, this route is heavily populated only at the end points. [Snip] All this proposed service can offer is a nostalgia trip, and those days are gone forever.
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A train that leaves the Bay Area at night and arrives in Los Angeles in the morning, and a train that leaves Los Angeles at night and arrives in the Bay Area in the morning, doesn't need heavy population in the middle where the train is passing through in the small hours of the morning. And it would serve a practical travel purpose -- sleep as you travel, no need for a hotel room (as lstone19 alluded to) -- not just nostalgia.

The Dreamstar website may be woefully short on details, but they ain't pitching a nostalgia trip.
 
I'm reminded that the proposed overnight "sleeper" buses between SF & LA never seemed to hit the road or failed quickly if I remember correctly - they were also 'luxury' buses too. This specific proposal just seems like a pie in the sky idea, although I think the basic idea has merit.
 
Brian Battuello said:
I had a room on the Lark once. Just saying.
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Came here just to say that Lark would be a much better name than "Dreamstar." :cool:

I think this could be viable if and only if it runs from LAUPT and then up the peninsula into San Francisco proper. If passengers have to commute into SF from the Oakland area after they arrive its going to be a harder sell because that's not any less hassle than the airport. Maybe a cross-platform transfer onto CalTrain somewhere could work. The CalTrain route also goes through the heart of silicon valley. That's an awful lot of people with money to burn and memories that don't stretch back to the 1960s.
 
railiner said:
I certainly would not invest in it.
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I would bet $10K that UP will kill this off with financial terms no reasonably priced service can reliably accommodate in the long run. If we want private passenger rail to make a comeback we'd need the FRA to operate more like the FAA along with an ADA waiver for startups and I do not see that happening.
 
AFriendly said:
I think this could be viable if and only if it runs from LAUPT and then up the peninsula into San Francisco proper. If passengers have to commute into SF from the Oakland area after they arrive its going to be a harder sell because that's not any less hassle than the airport. Maybe a cross-platform transfer onto CalTrain somewhere could work. The CalTrain route also goes through the heart of silicon valley. That's an awful lot of people with money to burn and memories that don't stretch back to the 1960s.
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In the article from Train magazine, Dreamstar said that they are negotiating with Caltrans to use the downtown station. Dreamstar wants the train to be "Downtown to Downtown."
 
At the end of the article, It looks like Dreamstar is interested in doing an Auto train and I also noticed that they were talking about phases of service and rolling stock for the future of the company.
 
JermyZP said:
At the end of the article, It looks like Dreamstar is interested in doing an Auto train and I also noticed that they were talking about phases of service and rolling stock for the future of the company.
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They said something like passengers' cars would "be waiting for them" when they got off the train. Adding auto carriers wouldn't accomplish that. They might be looking at trucking the cars, since a truck running down I-5 should easily be able to beat the train (unless there's Tule fog or a wreck on the Grapevine.)
 
The overnight bus service that amtrak CA runs is often sold out. There likely is the demand if tickets are priced right.
With the move to less peak focused and more all day operations Caltrain should have space at the south side of 4th and King to allow 1 set to layover and get restocked. I assume they'd use LA for maintenance work.

Trains will need to be push/pull as there is no ability to turn trains at 4th and king. High levels would be a option but that 2025 timeline seems impossible.

I'd just prefer for this to be the state over a private company. California could pretty easily setup a F59 pulling a transition sleeper, 1-2 normal sleepers, sightseer lounge and 2-3 coaches/coach cab cars.

JWM said:
It makes sense to me, but with a "split" at San Jose with a part going to Emeryville.
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Spiting would make the service even more complicated.
 
There may well be a market for this, but the real hurdles are obtaining equipment and negotiating reasonable trackage rights terms from UP. I don't see it happening anytime soon. And, if CAHSR is ever fully completed it will make an overnight train a moot issue.
 
lrh442 said:
There may well be a market for this, but the real hurdles are obtaining equipment and negotiating reasonable trackage rights terms from UP. I don't see it happening anytime soon. And, if CAHSR is ever fully completed it will make an overnight train a moot issue.
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They already have an initial agreement with UP we will see what track access looks like
CAHSR doesn't make an overnight train worthless, plenty of routes have high speed during the day and sleepers via a conventional line at night
 

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