downgraded place settings?

[gmushial]

I usually enjoy most of the open discussions unless they get ugly, but I will admit that lately politics seem to get thrown in for little or no discernible reason related to trains too often for my taste, and most of the jabs consistently go in one direction. However, I'm still hangin' around here, and the sheer volume of political posts indicates my taste for them is in the minority. The majority rules...

I don't mind the occasional drifting of topics. I too, though, am in the minority when it comes to my tastes in political posts that have nothing to do with Amtrak. Especially when such posts devolve into utter contempt and utter condescension from those on one side of the aisle towards those of another. But I still hang around too. I like Amtrak and like talking about it though my knowledge of it is miniscule compared to many here.

Don't confuse contempt and condescension for low-information, poorly thought out positions for contempt and condescension to everyone on the other side of the aisle.

There's absolutely a place for a well thought out, logical conservative viewpoint that's built on actual facts, but that isn't what gets slammed around here.

There's also plenty of condescension and contempt for people on this side of the aisle that pull the same dumb stuff (enviro-whackos like the "no Purple line, think of the shrimp" crowd).

It's not a left-right thing, it's an "are you an idiot" thing, and there's plenty of idiocy to go around.

Painfully true: I have as much problem with the politically correct crowd as I do with the dittoheads - both seem to think regurgitating what they've heard is the same as a fact based discussion - and in both cases if one probes for deeper understanding or rational for their respective positions, all they can do is spew the same, over and over.... IMHO to the detriment of the country or the governance thereof.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Spot on Ryan! Current events ignorance is not exclusive to any demographic or political point of view!

Cue Marvin Gaye singing "What's Going On?"

 

[Alexandria Nick]

I don't care what percentage of the budget our military takes up. Russia, China, Israel, India, Japan, and the European Union (the only countries with militaries sufficiently large to think about taking us on in a traditional military conflict) are tied to us economically way too firmly to consider attacking us. We don't need, for instance, 10 aircraft carriers. We need three or four to have full presence.

Yes, but they also made that exact argument 100 years ago when WWI was a few months away.

We're still fighting World War I.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

We are? How so?

A serious world war, if it happens, would be a total loss for all sides. All we'd be doing is picking up the pieces of what's left of the world. If anything. Avoiding that, if possible, will be diplomatic.

 

[gmushial]

I don't care what percentage of the budget our military takes up. Russia, China, Israel, India, Japan, and the European Union (the only countries with militaries sufficiently large to think about taking us on in a traditional military conflict) are tied to us economically way too firmly to consider attacking us. We don't need, for instance, 10 aircraft carriers. We need three or four to have full presence.

Yes, but they also made that exact argument 100 years ago when WWI was a few months away.

We're still fighting World War I.

If the argument is that countries are so inter-tied that they couldn't afford to go to war: don't think the data supports such (from wto.org online data): 1913 world trade was $0.019T, while 2012 (most recent data there) was $3.1T [all numbers inflation corrected to 2012 dollars], ie, the cost of lost international trade was almost insignificant then, vs today. I believe GML's point is quite cogent, and even more so than it has ever been... notice how fast Putin backed down over Ukraine once this financial interests were squeezed.

W/re Clemenceau's disastrous influence on the Peace of Paris (1919) - yes, but hopefully less so with the passage of time, and a more enlightened view of history and an appreciation of the costs of not moving forward.

 

[neroden]

I think we are jealous. The defense department gets all the back up equipment it needs; Amtrak doesn't

I'd say envious rather than jealous, but yes. The DoD is getting gigantic, wasteful slush funds at this point, and can't even account for how it's using them. I think whether you're "right wing" or "left wing" you should be able to support redirecting some of this money, which is currently being wasted on gross incompetence, towards the domestic program of your choice, whether it's Amtrak or anything else. (How about block grants to state governments? That used to be a right wing thing, or have they abandoned that now?)

As gmushial explained, the military is a huge and growing part of government operations, and is larger in money terms than everything else the federal government operates (roads, farm supports, food safety, etc.), with the exception of Medicare and Social Security. It's a larger bureaucracy than *anything* else in the US government. It is also the single largest pot of government money which is *prone to graft*, because there's lots of contracts to award and stuff like that.

Social Security is giant in "cash flowing through" terms, of course, but that's because it's basically a large pension program, with a completely separate incoming money stream from payroll tax. There's no room for graft because of the automatic, rule-based nature of the program, no contracts to award. And it has *extremely* low overhead for a pension program.

Medicare has somewhat larger overhead, and is also a large operation, but it's basically a health insurance company, with its own premiums and its own payroll tax. And it has lower overhead than any private insurance company. It's very clean for the same reason as Social Security -- little bureaucracy, little discretion. There is some fraud: for instance, Florida governor Rick Scott's company Columbia/HCA famously defrauded Medicare (he got caught and the company paid $1.7 billion in fines).

But the military... it's by far the largest *bureaucracy* in the government, it's the biggest user of *outside contracts* (opportunity for fraud), it can't even pass an audit. Also, it routinely loses wars, and frankly much of the leadership seems to have a stupid, worthless, incompetent attitude (look up the Millennium Challenge 2002 for the one which had me screaming and shaking my fist at the waste and corruption). I'd appreciate redirecting some of that wasted & lost money to something useful, whether it's trains or something else.

(I have my own theories about how we should run the military, but they are really seriously off-topic: if you're curious, look up the book _The Generals_ by Thomas Ricks, and if that's too long, listen to the Nimitz lecture by Thomas Ricks, which is on YouTube.)

It's not a left-right thing, it's an "are you an idiot" thing, and there's plenty of idiocy to go around.

Indeed. The military-industrial complex has been bipartisan for a looooong time, too....

 

[montana mike]

Sorry--Look at the facts. While the DOD is the single largest agency budget ($572 Billion), This represents 18.8% of the total federal budget for FY 2014. The single largest portion of the Federal budget are those wonderful "entitlements" (read "untouchables), which represent slightly over 71% of the US federal budget in this FY. FYI-The DOD budget went down by $32.7 BILLION in FY 2014.

We lose wars because politicians try to run the military. When our military is allowed to fight, using the capabilities we have they win--ie. WWII.

Let's stick to Amtrak's woes and stop spotting off on things you know understand or comprehend properly.

 

[railbuck]

I know it's been shared before, but it amazing to see how the dining car has changed in not that long of a time span. Just compare this menu from 2001 to the current one.

After the whinging about sold-out hot dogs, it's interesting to note that the old menu has only one children's selection for lunch and dinner, and none for breakfast.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

I know it's been shared before, but it amazing to see how the dining car has changed in not that long of a time span. Just compare this menu from 2001 to the current one.

After the whinging about sold-out hot dogs, it's interesting to note that the old menu has only one children's selection for lunch and dinner, and none for breakfast.

A very interesting comparison and fun read. If you look between the lines you can see the underpinnings for many of today's Menu offerings. Most of the prices haven't gone up much; so adjusted for inflation today's Menu is much cheaper.

ADDED - If I was a Small I don't think I could get too excited over a Peanut Butter and Jelly Pocket (?) and Carrot Sticks!

 

[andersone]

WWII wasn't walk in the park,,, and think of all the kids MacArthur killed needlessly to retake take the Philippines,,,, and perhaps envy is better than jealous,,, what's a few train sets among war lords

 

[William W.]

Sorry--Look at the facts. While the DOD is the single largest agency budget ($572 Billion), This represents 18.8% of the total federal budget for FY 2014. The single largest portion of the Federal budget are those wonderful "entitlements" (read "untouchables), which represent slightly over 71% of the US federal budget in this FY. FYI-The DOD budget went down by $32.7 BILLION in FY 2014.

We lose wars because politicians try to run the military. When our military is allowed to fight, using the capabilities we have they win--ie. WWII.

Let's stick to Amtrak's woes and stop spotting off on things you know understand or comprehend properly.

I completely agree. The military definitely needs to become more efficient, but when it is cut, you're chopping off red meat at this point. There is plenty of fat left on the rest of the federal budget that should receive attention (and could easily fund Amtrak).

Why don't you guys look there, instead of always looking to squeeze the military? You can't ask the troops to go off to war understrength, with inadequate equipment, and poor readiness. Many a G.I. died needlessly at the beginning of WW2 because of this. Whenever the military has to do a crash course to restore combat strength for a conflict, a lot more money is spent than if the military had been properly maintained beforehand.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Its not the troops that the money is wasted on,( see the mess @ the VA) its ultra expensive weapon systems ( lots are obsolete and even unwanted by the Pentagon) and contracting with Areo-Space and Security Corporations that have Sweetheart ( see Haliburton in Iraq) Cost Plus and Cost Overun contracts!

Also there is the so called Military Aid to so many other countries most of which is stolen or used to repress/kill the people in those nations!!,

And why are there more Flag Rank Officers than there were in WWII when 12,000,000 were in the Service?? Colonels are errand boys in the Pentagon and there are literally tens of thousands of PR Flacks and Aides in Uniform! Why??

And how many Atomic weapons do we need? There are enough to blow the world to smithereens already??!!!

 

[neroden]

Let's stick to Amtrak's woes and stop spotting off on things you know understand or comprehend properly.

I do, indeed, like to spout off on things which I know, understand, and comprehend properly.

Did you read my references? You should. Thomas Ricks explains in his book why we won WWII and have been losing ever since. It's a management problem in the military. You can lay blame for the management problem in a lot of seats, but he makes an ironclad case that it's a management problem and describes the problem.

In modern corporate terms, you could fairly say that the US military adopted an "agile" management philosophy prior to and including WWII, but ossified into a rigid, hidebound bureaucracy subject to the Peter Principle during the Cold War.

(The issue where Congress earmarks money for the military to buy *ships and tanks it doesn't even want* is another one. You can google this stuff. Surely we could employ people to run trains rather than building tanks and ships which the Army and Navy don't want?)

The management issues in the military are actually similar to some of the management issues which afflict Amtrak, though they afflict Amtrak to a much lesser degree.

 

[neroden]

There is plenty of fat left on the rest of the federal budget that should receive attention (and could easily fund Amtrak).

This is lazy talk.
I can identify the fat in the military budget with specifics, and very easily, starting with the missing $10 billon a year or so which can't be accounted for in the audit!

From Reuters ( http://www.reuters.com/investigates/pentagon/#article/part1 )

consider that a law in effect since 1992 requires annual audits of all federal agencies - and the Pentagon alone has never complied. It annually reports to Congress that its books are in such disarray that an audit is impossible.

People complain about Amtrak's bookkeeping. Geez, look at the elephant in the room. $540 billion a year and it CAN'T BE AUDITED. This is where any sane person would look for the "fat". (Actually, if it were in private industry, the Pentagon would have been *liquidated and shut down* for this, and replaced by a new auditable military. Actually, the Sarbanes-Oxley Act provides for *prison time* when the same type of non-auditability happens in private industry! )

Another quote from Reuters:

The Defense Department’s 2012 budget totaled $565.8 billion, more than the annual defense budgets of the 10 next largest military spenders combined, including Russia and China. How much of that money is spent as intended is impossible to determine.

In its investigation, Reuters has found that the Pentagon is largely incapable of keeping track of its vast stores of weapons, ammunition and other supplies; thus it continues to spend money on new supplies it doesn’t need and on storing others long out of date. It has amassed a backlog of more than half a trillion dollars in unaudited contracts with outside vendors; how much of that money paid for actual goods and services delivered isn’t known. And it repeatedly falls prey to fraud and theft that can go undiscovered for years, often eventually detected by external law enforcement agencies.

Read the entire Reuters report. It'll give you a sense of two things: first, the degree to which the Pentagon doesn't even know where its money is going; and second, the entrenched culture of appallingly bad management.

After that we can discuss stuff like the Abrams tank upgrades which the Army doesn't even want: http://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/blog/morning_call/2013/04/army-says-doesnt-need-upgraded-abrams.html

This is before I even get to the arguable stuff. The NSA counts as part of the military, and I can identify a hell of a a lot of fat there too. I can find some more fat pretty easily n the Homeland Security budget, which isn't technically military but close enough. I could point to waste in the DEA, which is a paramilitary and largely shouldn't exist at all.

You haven't identified specific fat in the non-military budget. And you'll have trouble doing so. Because, frankly, most of the federal government (except the military) is run lean and mean. I can specify one area for you: agribusiness subsidies. Got anything else? Didn't think so.

 

[Ryan]

Sorry--Look at the facts.

We are, and ignoring the exceedingly misleading statistics you keep throwing around. Counting out SS and Medicare, since they're separate entities is the intellectually honest thing to do.

The continued personal insults towards those that disagree are just sweet icing on the cake.

 

[gmushial]

Jim, Neroden, RyanS - it's not worth your time, give it up. There are people that are convinced that both daily high tides are caused by the Moon's gravity - it doesn't matter if you try to explain that the Moon does not orbit around the Earth, but in fact that the two orbit around a common center of mass (or more correctly: gravity), called their barycenter, and that the moon facing high tide is three-quarters caused by Moon's gravity, but the other quarter and the entire other high tide are caused by the centrifugal force unbalanced by gravity and cause by the earth orbiting this barycenter... you can draw them pictures, you can do the math for them... but if they don't want to follow the logic, the rationality of the explanation (for whatever reason), they will continue insist on what they have always. Right, wrong or otherwise. Thanks to non-fact check "news" this is America today. Sadly, but true. So... let's either lock this thread, or return it to downgraded/degraded place settings. Otherwise, as far as I can tell, all that's going to come out of where this is going is incivility where there was once civility. And that would be sad.

 

[neroden]

Well, I'll stop now. I just try to bring people's attention to stuff they may not have heard of, like the whole non-auditability nightmare at the Pentagon. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt -- I think a lot of people just don't even *know* about stuff like that, and it's easy to make bad assumptions if you have bad information. As one of the Congressman said in the Reuters piece, you start talking about accounting, lots of people just tune out, so I figure a lot of people didn't know about that at all.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Sadly I think you're right, but I still wish that those complaining about the government and throwing around " factoids" they read on- line or heard on hate radio/TV would ask themselves where is the money that comes out of their pockets actually going to???

As I said, cue Marvin Gaye singing " What's Going On?"

 

[Ispolkom]

And why are there more Flag Rank Officers than there were in WWII when 12,000,000 were in the Service?? Colonels are errand boys in the Pentagon

Long ago I attended the Air Force Association convention in DC, which had a great exhibit hall, with free drinks. (What did they think, that I'd get liquored up and buy a squadron of F-16s?) While trying to figure out how vendors chose their swag (why the cluster bomb manufacturer gave away jars of jam, for instance), I was pushed aside by a nimbus of brass that surrounded the Air Force Chief of Staff. You got it exactly right, Jim, the Chief of Staff (a lieutenant general, if I recall correctly), had a colonel to hold his hat while he pontificated on better living through air power. Me, I slid away with my jar of raspberry jam in search of another gin and tonic.

 

[gmushial]

I suspect those that care to know do know. Even here in RDD which is pretty intellectually retrograde, most people know. I'm not sure how this will be resolved. Those that believe both high tides are caused by the Moon, generally aren't willing to listen to reason, even if you walk them through the math at a 6th grade level - they know what they know and that's it. They are comfortable with their truth, it makes them happy, it allows them to have their beliefs etc. Maybe I'm too much of a NH libertarian (old-school, not the new school version), where people's rights extend up to but not including interference with my rights [or as more normally said: my rights extend up to but not including the point of interfering with other people's rights]... they haven't infringed my rights by believing both tides are cause by the Moon's gravity... but they do make it difficult to carry on rational conversation with... but I don't expect to be able to get along with everyone - I try to be civil, I try to be respectful, but if such doesn't work, I move on. .... maybe in a hundred years, when we're all dead, and Fox is gone, we'll have a more rational breed of American... in the meantime: fly Amtrak; eat your meals as delivered from local restaurants; have wild, delightful and protracted conversations with fine people you find on Amtrak; and enjoy life. ... hopefully our paths will cross on a LD train and we can talk until we're both are blue in the face and the cows have long ago come home.

 

[gmushial]

Sadly I think you're right, but I still wish that those complaining about the government and throwing around " factoids" they read on- line or heard on hate radio/TV would ask themselves where is the money that comes out of their pockets actually going to???

As I said, cue Marvin Gaye singing " What's Going On?"

Where the money is coming from, just might be what brings this to an end: $12k / year / tax payer is were we're at now (that's presuming median taxable income, and presuming not borrowing against our kid's future).

 

[Bob Dylan]

Excellent posts Ispolkom and gmushial!

I'm waiting for Field Marshall Limbaugh and the arm chair Generals on Faux News

To tell me whats Really Happening with the Military and Foreign affairs!

Maybe we can spend a few more trillion dollars and drum up another phoney Middle Eastern War if we can just cut unneeded luxuries like Amtrak!

 

[oldtimer]

Sadly I think you're right, but I still wish that those complaining about the government and throwing around " factoids" they read on- line or heard on hate radio/TV would ask themselves where is the money that comes out of their pockets actually going to???

As I said, cue Marvin Gaye singing " What's Going On?"

Where the money is coming from, just might be what brings this to an end: $12k / year / tax payer is were we're at now (that's presuming median taxable income, and presuming not borrowing against our kid's future).

Jim

I think the Marvin Gaye song should be "I Heard It Through the Grapevine" the line that says "believe half of what you see and some or none of what you hear"

As a former resident of Illinois' 13th Congressional I have paid attention to my representation past and present. One former Congressman was Donald Rumsfeld as for waste in the military Google his September 10, 2001 press conference where He stated that 2.3 Trillion in military equipment was unaccounted for. I am sure that the events of the next day made sure that there was no coverage. As for 9/11 also check out what he stated at the Pentagon just before the attacks.

 

[William W.]

Currently on the Silver Star (92). The new simplified menu is in place, but the tablecloth is still real, and the napkins are cloth. Plates are plastic, unfortunately.

 

[SarahZ]

I had those placemats on all three trains this week. I don't know if they're new or I just never noticed them before, but I love the rubbery-ness of the X pattern. It kept my glass, phone, silverware, etc from shaking/vibrating off the table. Those are a great idea.