Downeaster collission

[amtrakwolverine]

What kind of insurance policy does amtrak have? Are they self insured? they need a policy that goes after the driver that caused the accident.

 

[The Chief]

God forbid more state DPSes or highway admin agencies would have any kind of railroad crossing educational awareness program targeting trucking companies and independents (and I'm aware of Operation Lifesaver). It just appears this would be a good area of focus.

For instance, I checked the website of Maine Transportation Safety Coalition - Promoting safe transportation in Maine. That group has communications/programs about traffic safety for the blind, bicycles, pedestrians, and (I'm not making this up) moose and deer.

I'm guessing you have not driven much in states where there are moose. A full grown bull moose can reach 8' high and weigh up to 1500 to 1600 lbs. You really do NOT want to hit a moose standing in the middle of the road in a car as the body of the moose can clear the hood of the car and come in through the windshield. A quick google search turns up a Maine DOT news release from 2009 with the stat that there were 22 fatalities from moose-vehicle collisions in ME over the previous 10 years (http://www.maine.gov/mdot/mainedotnews/moose04162009.htm). So, yea, Maine DOT has safety awareness programs for drivers about moose and deer. Google turned up this Maine DOT flyer on railroad crossing safety - http://www.maine.gov/mdot/safety/documents/ffdocs/RailroadSafetyJune.pdf - which it appears the truck driver was not following.

And, yes, the plural of moose is moose.

Thanks for the link to the Maine DOT pdf flyer with the cartoon traffic light and caption "Be a Road Model." While that message is good, the verbiage and graphic appear targeted for younger drivers, passenger vehicle types.

My point is a notable increase in RR crossing axys involving commercial trucks may mean a need exists for railroad crossing educational awareness program targeting trucking companies and independents. Or how about a needs analysis to determine what may help?

While not having driven much in moose states, and I've never driven in Maine, that reference I inserted as a hyperbole. I postulate that there are many more truck-train accidents nationwide, than moose-train or moose-motor vehicle accidents.

And thanks for bringing up "moose" again, because I was chuckling while typing earlier, thinking of "

" een Ruzzhan akscent.

 

[jis]

And thanks for bringing up "moose" again, because I was chuckling while typing earlier, thinking of "

Not to mention Natasha and Boris!

 

[afigg]

Both this accident and the recent CZ one occurred at crossings that are at rather extreme angles to the tracks. The CZ thread devoted considerable discussion to how such accidents might be prevented or reduced. Why not have a DOT regulation that all level crossings must be perpendicular to the tracks? Any roads approaching at less than a 90 degree angle would have to be altered with curves that: a) would require the driver to slow down and think about what's ahead and b) would enable greater visibility in those cases where the driver would otherwise be closing with the train on his blind side. Admittently this is not a perfect solution in all cases, but surely it would help, and it's pretty cost effective compared with building over/underpasses.

Looking at the Google Earth view of the intersection in , it is at around a 45 degree angle, but I would not call it an extreme angle. It is also a more complex intersection as there are also 2 access roads that turn onto Rt. 4. I wonder if the truck driver was coming out of one of the side road and was not on Rt. 4?

The problem with changing the angle of the road crossing is the huge number of grade crossings in the US. How much land would have to taken to do it? How much would it slow down road traffic when the gates are up, which may be a good idea in general, but what about for a lightly traffic railroad line? There is also the question of whether a new curve in the road would lead to more accidents on a otherwise straight road when people miss the curve and go flying off into the trees or onto someone's property?

How many grade crossings are there on the 21,200 miles of routes that Amtrak uses? I would imagine thousands and thousands, if not into the more than 10 thousand range. Even on the NEC, there are still 11 grade crossings remaining in eastern CT on the Shore Line route in and near New London. Amtrak probably has the number of grade crossings on their total route mileage, but understandably is not going to put it into the fact sheets. Fixing even just those with quad gates or upgraded gate & light systems would cost a LOT of money.

 

[afigg]

http://www.pressherald.com/news/Report-Train-collides-with-truck-in-N-Berwick.html

It was a trailer dump truck haauling waste to a trash-to-energy plant.

Report states that there is a steep hill leading to the crossing. eyewitnesses said the truck locked his brakes and left 75 yard skid marks.

Also good photo of the charred front end of the locomotive.

Looking at Google Earth, it reports about a 20' drop in elevation downhill over what looks to be more than a 1000' distance. Steep hill may be overstating it, just a downhill slope. If the truck driver locked up his brakes 75 yards away, just how fast was he going? We may have another possible case here of an inattentive or distracted truck driver, like in Nevada, who did not see that the lights were flashing and the gates were down until it was too late to stop in time. Rt. 4 is quite straight leading to the rr crossing, unless there is foliage or someone blocking the view, the driver should have been able to see the lights & gate from a fair ways off.

 

[Bierboy]

LOTS more photos here.

Check out the loco...

 

[gdj]

How about having all vehicles with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26000 lbs or greater (CDL threshold) be required to stop at all crossings just like school buses and fuel tankers. Cost is minimal.

Also a few years ago Norfolk Southern had arrangements with the police in the more urban areas of Tidewater to ride in the cab of the locomotives. Other police would hide on a side street near the crossing. The officer in the cab relayed info on vehicles running the lights and gates. The officers on the side streets caught the violators and issued tickets with some fairly stiff penalties. When the officer on the train got to the end of the enforcement area he got off the train and rode the next one going the opposite direction. The officer in the cab had a camera. It was amazing how many cars ran the gates. I don't know if they are still doing this, but they should, if they are not.

Gary

 

[jis]

I am wondering if the fire was caused entirely by diesel from the truck. The fuel tanks of the P42s are pretty secure and protected within the monococque structure. But there have been one or two occasions when they have still managed to get punctured. but that is not very common at all.

 

[Ben_G]

Seeing the post about flashing lights I can't help but recall in SE Ohio on one hwy there were red light warning lights a good distance from the intersection. They (the warning lights were yellow) started flashing several seconds ( around 20 seconds I guess) before the light turned red warning any vehicle and gave you plenty of time to slow for the light. Just two bright lights top and bottom of a highway sign. If you were past the warning light before it came on you had time to clear the intersection before the light turned red.

 

[amamba]

Both this accident and the recent CZ one occurred at crossings that are at rather extreme angles to the tracks. The CZ thread devoted considerable discussion to how such accidents might be prevented or reduced. Why not have a DOT regulation that all level crossings must be perpendicular to the tracks? Any roads approaching at less than a 90 degree angle would have to be altered with curves that: a) would require the driver to slow down and think about what's ahead and b) would enable greater visibility in those cases where the driver would otherwise be closing with the train on his blind side. Admittently this is not a perfect solution in all cases, but surely it would help, and it's pretty cost effective compared with building over/underpasses.

Interesting idea, but it sounds cost prohibitive in regards to areas that are heavily populated. I am not sure that the owner of that lovely maine farmhouse on the corner would like having their property seized and their home bulldozed so that the grade crossing could be at a 90 degree angle.

 

[TimePeace]

Not that I'm trying to make excuses for idiot drivers, but I'm wondering if it might be better if railroad crossings, instead of having flashing red lights, had solid red lights.

I believe it's been proven that flashing lights catch someone's attention better than solid ones (one of the reasons that proposals come up every so often to have car brake lights flash).

Flashing red lights are going to be much better in catching the driver's attention. However I wonder how many drivers on the road are confused about what a flashing red light means in terms of road rules?

At a normal road intersection, flashing red is treated effectively the same as a stop sign: come to a full stop, then proceed if the way is clear. Or a rolling stop(!), which is what I see a lot of people do when there is a power hit during a storm and the traffic lights go to flashing mode until they are reset. Are there drivers who think the same is true for a railroad crossing, even when the gates are down? After all, people are now used to being ok to turn right on a red light.

Wonder if the NTSB has looked at railroad crossing signal and gate systems from human factors engineering standpoint? I'm sure they have in terms of the lights, but instead look at railroad crossing designs in terms of what the average driver is used to encountering, your typical traffic light intersection, and what they do when they come to a railroad crossing. There are many drivers in cities or suburbia who likely rarely encounter a railroad crossing in their normal day to day driving or, if they do, the gates are always up so they just drive right through it. Maybe railroad crossings with gates should have a solid red light in view of the stopped vehicle traffic with flashing red lights at the crossbuck a little further back to get attention.

What percentage of licensed drivers know the basic rules when they encounter a railroad crossing with flashing red lights? Given the scary percentages I saw recently in an article on July 4 when they asked people (US citizens) which country the US succeeded from on the Fourth of July and fought the Revolutionary War against, it could be pretty low.

Even more important might be which country the US seceded from!

 

[Guest]

According to CNN, the Amtrak train "collided" with the truck. So I guess the train drove off the tracks, found an unsuspecting truck, drug it back to the crossing and proceeded to run over/through it? hboy: I really wish media would come to reality and realize vehicles collide into trains, not the other way, unless the train derails and goes off the track and hits the vehicle when it isn't on the tracks.

Collided works for me. After all it was the train that was the one doing the striking. You don't say the squirrel hit my car when you run over a squirrel, you say I hit a stupid squirrel. The train collided with a stupid truck driver.

 

[Ryan]

Seeing the post about flashing lights I can't help but recall in SE Ohio on one hwy there were red light warning lights a good distance from the intersection. They (the warning lights were yellow) started flashing several seconds ( around 20 seconds I guess) before the light turned red warning any vehicle and gave you plenty of time to slow for the light. Just two bright lights top and bottom of a highway sign. If you were past the warning light before it came on you had time to clear the intersection before the light turned red.

There are a bunch of traffic lights around here that have that kind of warning sign roughly 1/4 mile before the intersection. They say something along the lines of "Prepare to stop when lights are flashing" and have a bunch of flashing yellow lights. They're really great - not sure how practical it would be for something like a grade crossing, you'd need a good bit of warning to get the yellow lights flashing in time to do any good.

 

[Bob Dylan]

There are Several places around the Austin Metro Area where Hilly Roads have Signs with Flashing Yellow Lights Warning Drivers that Signal Lights are Over the Upcoming Hill Out of Sight of the Driver! Yet on the Access Road of IH35, which used to be IH35 before the Upper Deck was Built, there is a Rail Road Crossing with no Warning, just the standard Pole Lights with the Cross Bucks, No Gates!!! People Drive really Fast on this Road and are Distracted by Cell Phones/Lap Tops etc. and the Red Line and Freights cross this Road Several times a day and night, Accident Waiting to Happen!!! :help: :help: :help:

 

[AlanB]

Even on the NEC, there are still 11 grade crossings remaining in eastern CT on the Shore Line route in and near New London. Amtrak probably has the number of grade crossings on their total route mileage, but understandably is not going to put it into the fact sheets. Fixing even just those with quad gates or upgraded gate & light systems would cost a LOT of money.

All NEC crossings are already quad gated IIRC. Slight chance that one very small road crossing only has a single gate.

 

[afigg]

Even on the NEC, there are still 11 grade crossings remaining in eastern CT on the Shore Line route in and near New London. Amtrak probably has the number of grade crossings on their total route mileage, but understandably is not going to put it into the fact sheets. Fixing even just those with quad gates or upgraded gate & light systems would cost a LOT of money.

All NEC crossings are already quad gated IIRC. Slight chance that one very small road crossing only has a single gate.

I was talking about ALL the grade crossings on the routes used by Amtrak. Which is a subset of all the grade crossings in the US on the active freight lines.

 

[TimePeace]

I live in Maine and am saddened and dismayed by this crash.

I like the idea of regular stop lights at crossings. How about ones that also go through an occasional stop cycle when a train is NOT approaching, and have one of those cameras that takes a photo of the license numbers of those who run the light, and prosecute and publicize them?

 

[Train2104]

All NEC crossings are already quad gated IIRC. Slight chance that one very small road crossing only has a single gate.

The only non-quad crossings on the NEC are 3 in New London, because of the 25mph speed limit around the station.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Let's not get too overworked over this crash. Luckily, the only death was the truck driver, so the Amtrak passengers and crew are all right. Unfortunately, there are always going to be stupid drivers who will ignore signals and gates and risk their lives and others to save a couple of seconds. Every day, I see drivers who perform all kinds of dangerous tricks to gain a few feet/seconds in traffic. You could put movable concrete blocks at grade crossings and somebody will try to run them. Educational programs help, but nothing, short of putting in overpasses or underpasses at every grade crossing will completely rid us of stupid drivers.

 

[amamba]

I live in Maine and am saddened and dismayed by this crash.

I like the idea of regular stop lights at crossings. How about ones that also go through an occasional stop cycle when a train is NOT approaching, and have one of those cameras that takes a photo of the license numbers of those who run the light, and prosecute and publicize them?

Having a light that makes cars stop at the tracks when a train is not approaching sounds like a great way to train drivers to actually run the light - because a train might not be coming so what is the point of stopping.

 

[Trogdor]

What percentage of licensed drivers know the basic rules when they encounter a railroad crossing with flashing red lights?

What percentage of licensed drivers know the basic rules of the road at all, regardless of whether or not a railroad crossing is present?

I was thinking the same thing.....except how/when would the yellow work? Maybe for 10 seconds just before the gates come down? Then, what about crossings that don't have gates? People tend to "run" yellow lights all the time (Especially in San Francisco. The light would have to turn red in plenty of time before the train hit the crossing.

The current system already requires the lights to be on/gates down in plenty of time before the train reaches the crossing. However, adding a yellow signal to the mix would require adjusting the grade crossing circuitry so that it activates a bit sooner than it currently does.

Educational programs help, but nothing, short of putting in overpasses or underpasses at every grade crossing will completely rid us of stupid drivers.

Nothing will ever rid us of stupid drivers. We can only minimize the potential for them causing problems for others. The driver will still be stupid.

 

[Ryan]

Nothing will ever rid us of stupid drivers.

I dunno, Amtrak seems to be doing a pretty good job of clearing them out this month.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Nothing will ever rid us of stupid drivers.

I dunno, Amtrak seems to be doing a pretty good job of clearing them out this month.

Touche. Unfortunately the cost of removing stupid drivers this way is rather prohibitive. I would recommend much tougher testing and routine retesting required for obtaining and maintaining drivers licenses and much stiffer penalties for driving without a valid license. This could be seen as a punitive measure but in all honesty the rules of the road change from year to year while most of us never know or notice any of that. For some reason we tend to assume that whatever the rules were when we got our license simply remain in effect forever. Routine testing might help with that while also removing bad drivers.

 

[Oldsmoboi]

Sometimes consistency is more important than being "better". For example, for many years Scottsdale, AZ's fire engines were painted florescent yellow-green, which is more visible than traditional fire engine red. However, they found that people did not recognize the vehicles as fire engines because they weren't the expected color.

I've thought for a long time that railroad signals should be replaced with regular traffic lights. They evolved in parallel with traffic lights, but the two have never been unified despite serving much the same purpose.

It also bugs me that flashing red for a traffic light means that you can proceed after stopping and yielding to cross traffic. A flashing railroad signal, however, means stay stopped.

I was thinking the same thing.....except how/when would the yellow work? Maybe for 10 seconds just before the gates come down? Then, what about crossings that don't have gates? People tend to "run" yellow lights all the time (Especially in San Francisco. The light would have to turn red in plenty of time before the train hit the crossing.

Same as the lights on a drawbridge.

 

[NE933]

Touche. Unfortunately the cost of removing stupid drivers this way is rather prohibitive. I would recommend much tougher testing and routine retesting required for obtaining and maintaining drivers licenses and much stiffer penalties for driving without a valid license. This could be seen as a punitive measure but in all honesty the rules of the road change from year to year while most of us never know or notice any of that. For some reason we tend to assume that whatever the rules were when we got our license simply remain in effect forever. Routine testing might help with that while also removing bad drivers.

Also I think our media culture and social norms are bringing more to the table than we can handle. Case in point: BMW presently has a TV campaign of commercials in which drivers of their present cars climb out of, then jump from, their present old car, to a brand new BMW still on the delivery truck. Then you have the run of the mill extreme daredevilry in which the shiny new car overtakes the older one on a curvy mountain road. Such sexualized recklessness are deliberately targeted to a youth market eager to get into debt in order to own one of these much in the way tobacco used to be: cars are not for transportation, but rather for a masculine image that will get you into the pretty people crowd, and even into the hottest clubs.

Railroads, Operation Lifesaver, and us -- the railfans -- ought to serve a confrontational volley and open up a debate that challenges automakers, and the advertising corporations that do their marketing, about the lethal correlations between train/road vehicle accidents and the seductively sensational ads that are being shown. It will need to be for the long haul, much like it took over a decade for tobacco firms to retrench. The link between behaviors that are influenced (or downright caused) by the imagery and sensory arousal of driving recklessly with all the consequences removed, and violent deaths by burning, crushing, and dismemberment of innocent train passengers and crew, and in the autos as well, has to be exposed and halted. Otherwise, Operation Lifesaver will be little more than a toothless yellow cloud squealing to the deaf and stupid.