Does Amtrak know how trains work?

[Nathanael]

so having signage that lists the train would have to change constantly.

This "problem" was solved 200 years ago, initially with chalk boards and hanging signs adjusted by station staff, later with Solari boards, and finally with digital monitors, listing which train is leaving from which track. In short, this is not a problem.

(And yes, this "problem" was solved *before trains existed*, for stagecoaches and boats. It's that solved. ^_^ )

 

[the_traveler]

Don't have any que or line-up of any kind before a gate opens. Allow a gate to open exactly 30 minutes before a train departs.

So you're saying in CHI to never close the gate? :huh: Within 30 minutes, many trains depart, including (for example) the TE, CZ, MI trains, IL trains, etc... Then after the TE departs, you have the CZ, etc... and the SWC. And so on and so on!
There is hardly anytime at CUS that does not have a departure within 30 minutes. And that doesn't include any arriving trains during that time.

My opinion - it would not work.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

I recall a movie circa 1940 about a woman who was trying to catch a train from New York to Florida, she stood next to a PRR employee who was checking names off a list of people at the upper level while people were escorted by the conductors at the lower level. Assuming that movie was an accurate depiction of a boarding procedure I commented "Amtrak's security checks haven't changed much since the 40s". Though at one point the millionaires who abscond with the woman shoot up the train, the conductor's, after multiple gunshots (destroying a PRR coach and nearly killing the black OBS staff) are warned by the conductors that discharging the weapon was "a misdemeanour".

That's The Palm Beach Story and it runs on TCM from time to time. The train scenes are hysterical, but after all it is a pure comedy.

 

[amamba]

So how would you deal with situations where you can have trains in places like NYP where on the same platform can be two identical trains going in opposite directions to opposite locations. You could ask Congress for millions to put in new fancy electronic signs and hire Al Roker to announce the arrivals like on some commuter rails, but you're definitely going to get confused people on the wrong train. Amtrak has a much higher percentage of people who are not familiar with trains, veterans and daily commuters may not be bothered by such a policy but tourists and first-timers (who already find NYP to be confounding) will end up getting on the wrong platform, waiting for the wrong trains, getting on the wrong trains...

Amtrak's gate checks seem to be about making sure as few people get on the wrong trains as possible.

This happens everyday in PVD. There are four tracks with two platforms. The station is above. Pax wait in the station until it is announced that their train is boarding. (Before train arrives). The solari board shows what track. The digital sign at the top of the stairs that goes down to the platform is updated with the info for the current train.
On most weekdays the 95 (heading south down the NEC) arrives around the same time as the 66 (heading north). Two regionals on two tracks with a platform in the middle. They are often across from each other and boarding at the same time. There are digital signs above the track with the train number and the conductors shout our the train number. In fact a SB acela normally arrives about 5 minutes before the 95 - on the same track - and the conductors normally shout that it's the acela and not 95.

And as the traveler knows they never indicate if FC on the acela is rear or front on the train. I always have to ask at the window.

And imagine that we are all able to find and board our correct trains with no gate agents in PVD! A multiple track and platform station with just the scenarios that some ppl state are confusing.

 

[amamba]

Oh and the station staff makes an announcement when it's time to go to the platform, too. There is also an automated voice thingie that verbally says all the stops the train willbe making, and the stops are also listed on the digital sign.

 

[AlanB]

And as the traveler knows they never indicate if FC on the acela is rear or front on the train. I always have to ask at the window.

The overhead signs indicate where to stand for FC on Acela, as well as where to stand for the BC quiet car.

I believe that the only major station that doesn't have the variable message signs for Acela is NYP. I know that they exist in WAS, BAL, WIL, PHL, PVD, RTE, BBY, BOS. AFAIK, NWK, STM, and NHV don't have the signs. I'm not sure about BWI and MET.

 

[amamba]

And as the traveler knows they never indicate if FC on the acela is rear or front on the train. I always have to ask at the window.

The overhead signs indicate where to stand for FC on Acela, as well as where to stand for the BC quiet car.
I believe that the only major station that doesn't have the variable message signs for Acela is NYP. I know that they exist in WAS, BAL, WIL, PHL, PVD, RTE, BBY, BOS. AFAIK, NWK, STM, and NHV don't have the signs. I'm not sure about BWI and MET.

Alan those signs exist in PVD and will show the train number. But I can tell you that I have never once seen them display first or business at either end as I have seen them show that in PHL. Plus the announcement normally does not indicate if bc/ first will be at the front or rear as I have heard them do at other stations. You mean the ones overhead on the platform with the letters, right?

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

I have no objection to more signage, Congress will. If they gripe about $720,000 (?) for wine and cheese they're not likely to green light a few extra million for signage at all the platforms at various stations... Heck I wouldn't mind one at ALC, but getting the funding... I'm sure the idea has already been floated.

 

[Nathanael]

Chicago already HAS the electronic signs, they just don't USE them correctly.

NY Penn might be hard because of the cramped, cluttered overhead space on the narrow platforms with the huge staircases, elevators, and pillars blockading them.

But Chicago should be easy.

 

[jis]

MET platform boards show the location of Acela FCC and Regional BC. This is true at all NJT managed stations where Amtrak stops.

 

[Blackwolf]

So you're saying in CHI to never close the gate? :huh: Within 30 minutes, many trains depart, including (for example) the TE, CZ, MI trains, IL trains, etc... Then after the TE departs, you have the CZ, etc... and the SWC. And so on and so on!
There is hardly anytime at CUS that does not have a departure within 30 minutes. And that doesn't include any arriving trains during that time.

My opinion - it would not work.

No, I think you might have misunderstood. By gates, I mean the doors leading out to each individual platform. Amtrak calling the doors in the waiting rooms "Gates" is misleading and quite honestly incorrect. There should be no staff inside the waiting rooms (or preboarding lounges, as Amtrak calls them.) It would work, and I am quite certain of this, to open and close the doors (or gates, as they really should be called,) leading out to the platforms themselves 30 minutes before and up to train departure from an effected platform.

It is simple and not confusing. The troubles would likely stem initially from those who are used to the current pattern and would loose their s**t at something being changed for which they did not know or plan for (even if it is better.) But over time, and really not much time in the end scheme of things, they would get used to the streamlined procedure and lament the former Kindergarten walks.

 

[Blackwolf]

Don't have any que or line-up of any kind before a gate opens. Allow a gate to open exactly 30 minutes before a train departs.

I think you'll just have a lineup from 45-30 minutes before departure.

Highly discourage line-ups and you won't have the issue. Besides, lining up in front of a departure gate (the doors leading out to the platform, not the doors in the waiting room) would cause trouble in the concourse by blocking the flow of traffic. So, a few current customers have a temper tantrum at not being able to line up... That is where a courteous and helpful Amtrak PD officer sternly but politely enforces the law. Within 6 months, no more lines, no more Kindergarten walk, and no more bottlenecks.

But of course, this is all on paper and not supported by anyone who could implement it. And I'm just a firefighter at the end of the day!

 

[Anderson]

Chicago's procedure could use a lot of improvement, and I agree with Blackwolf...but a good portion of that also comes down to the chronic issues with CHI that have been raised elsewhere. One obnoxious-as-heck addendum to CHI is that, at least in the past, while a sleeper passenger connecting to a coach train is (frequently) allowed to wait in the lounge, they also get kicked out to board with the rest of the coach passengers from the cattle pens.

CHI aside, you could probably apply those procedures to WAS, though that has to do with the fact that [A] Upper-level trains are all originating/terminating while Lower-level trains that aren't originating/terminating are in the station for at least 20 minutes as a rule due to engine and crew changes...and, if boarding from the CA is any indication, could be boarded at almost any time while the train is in the station save a minute or two of time around "popping the toaster" and putting the diesel on or vice-versa.

 

In NYP, there's no "good" answer, though it would probably make sense to try and use both escalators on a platform whenever possible with a big train. Even then, not scanning the ticket but merely stating "Train X" or "Train Name, Number X" [or, in the case of the LD trains, "Train to Chicago/Miami/New Orleans/Savannah"] to passengers as they board would speed things a bit.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

Don't have any que or line-up of any kind before a gate opens. Allow a gate to open exactly 30 minutes before a train departs.

I think you'll just have a lineup from 45-30 minutes before departure.

Highly discourage line-ups and you won't have the issue. Besides, lining up in front of a departure gate (the doors leading out to the platform, not the doors in the waiting room) would cause trouble in the concourse by blocking the flow of traffic. So, a few current customers have a temper tantrum at not being able to line up... That is where a courteous and helpful Amtrak PD officer sternly but politely enforces the law. Within 6 months, no more lines, no more Kindergarten walk, and no more bottlenecks.

But of course, this is all on paper and not supported by anyone who could implement it. And I'm just a firefighter at the end of the day!

Now you just have a bottleneck at 30 minutes before when all the people like me that have been circling like sharks to avoid overtly lining up make our dash for the door when the clock ticks to the right minute.

 

[VentureForth]

I agree with about 90% of what Blackwolf suggests. I agree with most of the original article.

One premise I would like to argue is the suggestion that removal of the gates would necessarily result in overcrowding in the platforms. In my limited experience at WAS, I could imagine a simple access gate to the platforms. No ticket? Train more than 30 minutes away? No access. But if not, welcome to the platform. The incentive to stay in the station area is access to kiosks, seats, customer service, etc. But if someone wants to stand on the platform for 30 minutes to try and get a better seat, more power to 'em.

The only place I see the Kindergarten Walk remotely necessary is NYP because of the platform size.

Better signage - in lobbies, on platforms, and on trains is a must. But over time, someone's job may become redundant. But then again, labor and benefits are Amtrak's greatest expenses.

 

[caravanman]

I was sorry to hear of ALC's friends problem with signage here in the UK, and so missing a 3 minute connection... Are there any Amtrak trains that one can book that have such prompt connection times?

At the end of the day, I feel that Jim Hudson has it right... Is it a crime in America to think for yourself, do you need a big Nanny just to board a train?

In some ways this ties into a thread from a while back where the writer complained that the big build up to the long distance Amtrak seattle experience was let down by a lack of pazzaz. All the lounges, gates, herding, seem to make for something special, well worth waiting for... then you go through and get on a train like anywhere else in the world!

Ed

 

[MattW]

The boarding circuses wouldn't be so bad if Amtrak would come into the 20th century and have seat selection/assignment at booking. That's what I hate about coach passengers boarding at these stations. Sleepers aren't so bad since your space is guaranteed, but as a coach passenger, I don't want to be suck in some windowless seat or not able to sit with my group. The intermediate stations aren't any better in the latter regard really. My family and I were strung out over 2 cars of an Acela boarding at RTE instead of BOS.

 

[benjibear]

The one thing that I don't was brought up is the fact that Amtrak may need to load/unload and get the train ready to go where the passengers on the platforms can interfere. The passengers can get injured easily if the crew is loading or the train moves slightly. I can see Amtrak not wanting passengers on the platform before a certain time.

Also, if they allowed people 30 minutes before, people would start lining up an hour before. If they allowed an hour before somebody will be there two hours before.

As far as Washington, I think improvements should be made. I found at Washington, there are ways to get ahead of the line when they call boarding.

 

[MrFSS]

I recall a movie circa 1940 about a woman who was trying to catch a train from New York to Florida, she stood next to a PRR employee who was checking names off a list of people at the upper level while people were escorted by the conductors at the lower level. Assuming that movie was an accurate depiction of a boarding procedure I commented "Amtrak's security checks haven't changed much since the 40s".

Don't know about NYP in the 40's, but I first boarded a train at CUS in 1946. While I don't remember much about the process, I do remember that there were big sliding doors at each track/gate. You couldn't wander out onto the platform, even in those days, until they opened the doors. This was true all the way up into the 60's, the last time I boarded in that station before Amtrak took over.

The difference was, they had a number of attendants standing at the doors, which were probably 8 feet wide, to assist and more help up and down the side of the train making sure you boarded where you were supposed to be. No lounges in those days.

 

[cirdan]

A terrorist could, in theory, walk on a train, and someone could just hide in the bathroom, but almost every other rail agency has figured out how to handle that with passengers being on the platform. Heck, commuter rail agencies allow people to wait on the platform, and they go into the same stations as Amtrak does.

Anyway, if i was a terrorist, I'd target commuter trains, not Amtrak trains. People are much closer together on commuter trains so you can kill more people with the same effort. And with the frequent stops, its much easier to get off and vanish and you don't need to worry about what will happen if the train runs late and you can't reprogram the timer without people noticing.

 

[cirdan]

The one thing that I don't was brought up is the fact that Amtrak may need to load/unload and get the train ready to go where the passengers on the platforms can interfere. The passengers can get injured easily if the crew is loading or the train moves slightly. I can see Amtrak not wanting passengers on the platform before a certain time.

What about if they allow people to roam, but don't announce the track until the consist is genuinely ready. People are not going to stand next to a random train on the odd chance that it might be the right one.

Okay, some railfans like us or frequent travellers might work it out in advance, but the average public won't.

 

[AlanB]

Alan those signs exist in PVD and will show the train number. But I can tell you that I have never once seen them display first or business at either end as I have seen them show that in PHL. Plus the announcement normally does not indicate if bc/ first will be at the front or rear as I have heard them do at other stations. You mean the ones overhead on the platform with the letters, right?

The announcement is up to the person behind the microphone, although he/she does have access to the data and could provide it if they were being smart.

But the signs, and yes the ones with the letters, are controlled from elsewhere. They're set from the originating station, and in fact on one trip they were set wrong, so at every station along the way FC people where at the head end when the FC car was at the rear.

As for PVD, I can't say that I always look, but I have on at least a few occasion seen them displaying where to stand for the FC car. And in fact on my last trip which involved my being dumped @ PVD by my Boston bound Acela due to the gas leak at Route 128, the overhead was indeed displaying where to board for FC for those boarding what was my train and was turning to become a DC bound Acela.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

I was sorry to hear of ALC's friends problem with signage here in the UK, and so missing a 3 minute connection... Are there any Amtrak trains that one can book that have such prompt connection times?

Actually I was chiding her for thinking she could make such a connection, first time travelling abroad, first time on trains, first time in that station, I told her she should have waited for the next one to orient herself.

She paid 40 quid for a cab ride back to the station and got on the next train, the train she probably should have taken in the first place.

 

[Nathanael]

What about if they allow people to roam, but don't announce the track until the consist is genuinely ready. People are not going to stand next to a random train on the odd chance that it might be the right one.

This. Particularly in Chicago where most of the prep work is done off-platform and there's no unloading to be done on a train which is loading.

Okay, some railfans like us or frequent travellers might work it out in advance, but the average public won't.

 

[June the Coach Rider]

so having signage that lists the train would have to change constantly.

This "problem" was solved 200 years ago, initially with chalk boards and hanging signs adjusted by station staff, later with Solari boards, and finally with digital monitors, listing which train is leaving from which track. In short, this is not a problem.

(And yes, this "problem" was solved *before trains existed*, for stagecoaches and boats. It's that solved. ^_^ )

OK, maybe the signage could be handled. But if you have been to Chicago, The amount of people that would be hanging around the platform waiting to be the first on their train would make it unsafe. It is not like only 30-40 people get on in Chicago, hundreds board each train so if there was no organizational line, it would be mass confusion. Oh, and by the way, having the signage up to the minute when the train could end up on a different track than what is listed is very possible. So then you would have people thinking their train was on one track because there was a train there even though their actual train is on a different track. They will not know this because they are out on the platform where there is no signage.