diners, cafes, dinettes, cafes, lounges, diner-lites, diner/lounges...

[wayman]

We've been talking a lot about the disappearance of Heritage diners and the introduction of new dining service cars, but I've seen so many different terms in various forum threads for various types of Amtrak dining service cars that I'm becoming overwhelmed and confused. I haven't turned up a single well-laid-out history of these cars, nor diagrams of their interiors, on the web. Anyone know of such off-hand? Or, barring that, can we put together a nice narrative here, explaining the different types of cars, their dates of acquisition, which trains they tend to (or used to) run on, and including as many diagrams as folks can find or provide?

My experiences with dining service cars as I can recollect:

a) full dining car service on the Crescent (last ridden in August, what I remember here since at least 1994) and Lake Shore Limited (last ridden in 2003)--single level, kitchen and narrow hallway at one end. This is a "Heritage diner", no?

b ) a car with tables at one end, a cafe kitchen in the middle, and an ex-smoking lounge on the other end, which I think I've only seen on the Crescent, running in addition to the full diner (again, at least 1994 to current). The smoking lounge is enclosed by glass which has one or more state seals emblazoned on it. I have no idea what to properly call this car. I've always assumed they're pretty old, inherited or Amfleet I or something.

c) a car with tables at one end, a cafe kitchen in the middle, and more tables at the other end. I feel like I'm mostly accustomed to seeing this on NEC Regional Service, but I could be wrong about that. I've always called these "cafe cars" and assumed they were Amfleet II generation, but that might not be right. (Oh, I think this is what I recall from the Pennsylvanian too.)

d) full dining car service on the Capitol Ltd, CA Zephyr, SW Chief--Superliner cars with a kitchen below and dumbwaiters carrying the food up to a central preparation/distribution area (with the hallway in the center), and with dining tables on both ends of the car. Is this just called a "Superliner diner"? (Are the cars which run on the Empire Builder physically different, or just differently staffed and utilized?) How old are these?

e) sightseer lounge and cafe cars on Superliner trains--which I've only ever heard referred to as "Sightseer Lounge" cars. Does the word "lounge" by itself ever refer to a single-level car? I've seen at least two different layouts for the cafe section below, and at least two different upholsteries (if not layouts) for the upstairs, but these are the same generation of cars just before and after a refurbishing, no? I've seen a exterior photo of a Santa Fe car which looked just like the Sightseer Lounge, which suggested to me these might all be inherited equipment, but I don't know if that's true.

f) the new service on the Cardinal and Lake Shore Limited (and elsewhere?)--single-level rebuilt cars that were formerly type ©, converted to have fewer tables at one end arranged to accomodate a wheelchair at one (in theory), with the cafe section expanded to include a steam table. I've definitely seen (and used) "diner/lounge" to describe this, but I get the sense that "dinette" has been used interchangably here, as has "diner-lite"? Or are these referring to different car layouts?

g) I have no idea what a "Horizon diner" is, compared to a "Heritage diner".

Thanks!

PS, related general terminology question:

Am I correct in understanding that "Superliner" refers to the entire set of two-level cars (sleepers, diners, sightseer lounges, coaches, and transition cars), while "Viewliner" only refers to single-level sleepers (never to dining service cars or coaches)? That's my intuitive sense, but I'm not sure I've ever seen it spelled out anywhere so I wanted to make sure I wasn't making a false assumption here.

 

[PerRock]

Am I correct in understanding that "Superliner" refers to the entire set of two-level cars (sleepers, diners, sightseer lounges, coaches, and transition cars), while "Viewliner" only refers to single-level sleepers (never to dining service cars or coaches)? That's my intuitive sense, but I'm not sure I've ever seen it spelled out anywhere so I wanted to make sure I wasn't making a false assumption here.

Basically yes, the term Supperliner is the name of the entire fleet of double decker Long distance cars. where as Viewliner is the name of Amtrak's newest single-level sleeper cars. Not all AMTK double deckers are Supperliners though, in California there are the California cars (also know as the Surfliner cars) Amtrak also had so Pullman Standard Bi-level commuter cars which have long since been de-commissioned.

peter

 

[Penn Central]

Am I correct in understanding that "Superliner" refers to the entire set of two-level cars (sleepers, diners, sightseer lounges, coaches, and transition cars), while "Viewliner" only refers to single-level sleepers (never to dining service cars or coaches)? That's my intuitive sense, but I'm not sure I've ever seen it spelled out anywhere so I wanted to make sure I wasn't making a false assumption here.

Basically yes, the term Supperliner is the name of the entire fleet of double decker Long distance cars. where as Viewliner is the name of Amtrak's newest single-level sleeper cars. Not all AMTK double deckers are Supperliners though, in California there are the California cars (also know as the Surfliner cars) Amtrak also had so Pullman Standard Bi-level commuter cars which have long since been de-commissioned.

peter

They also have some of the ex-Santa Fe Hi-Level coaches on the Heartland Flyer and lounges on the Coast Starlight as 'Pacific Parlours'.

 

[TVRM610]

A "Horizon Dinnette" is very similiar to the amfleet cafe' cars, booths on either side, and a center cafe counter. The main difference is the car is flat, looks more like a heritage car from the outside.

Another side note, there was at one time a viewliner diner. I have heard that it is no longer in service, but I rode in it once on the crescent and it was really nice.

 

[AmtrakCrescent20]

I'll try to answer some of your questions, but I'm sure others will have more to say.

We've been talking a lot about the disappearance of Heritage diners and the introduction of new dining service cars, but I've seen so many different terms in various forum threads for various types of Amtrak dining service cars that I'm becoming overwhelmed and confused. I haven't turned up a single well-laid-out history of these cars, nor diagrams of their interiors, on the web. Anyone know of such off-hand? Or, barring that, can we put together a nice narrative here, explaining the different types of cars, their dates of acquisition, which trains they tend to (or used to) run on, and including as many diagrams as folks can find or provide?

In Amtrak's current travel planner, one can find diagrams of the long distance equipment near the front.

a) full dining car service on the Crescent (last ridden in August, what I remember here since at least 1994) and Lake Shore Limited (last ridden in 2003)--single level, kitchen and narrow hallway at one end. This is a "Heritage diner", no?

All single level diners currently running are Heritage. However, because they were inherited from different railroads, the individual cars may vary slightly. Also, some have been rebuilt under the Temoinsa program several years ago.

b ) a car with tables at one end, a cafe kitchen in the middle, and an ex-smoking lounge on the other end, which I think I've only seen on the Crescent, running in addition to the full diner (again, at least 1994 to current). The smoking lounge is enclosed by glass which has one or more state seals emblazoned on it. I have no idea what to properly call this car. I've always assumed they're pretty old, inherited or Amfleet I or something.

Actually, that would be an Amfleet II Lounge. These were built for Amtrak about 1982, and have gone through three states of refurbishment. I believe they originally came with brown interiors and tables on one end, with "lounge" seats on the other side of the counter area. Some years ago, Amtrak refurbished these to include the smoking lounge, which now stands vacant. Recently, Amtrak began again rebuilding these into the single level Diner-Lounges, with tables on both sides.

c) a car with tables at one end, a cafe kitchen in the middle, and more tables at the other end. I feel like I'm mostly accustomed to seeing this on NEC Regional Service, but I could be wrong about that. I've always called these "cafe cars" and assumed they were Amfleet II generation, but that might not be right. (Oh, I think this is what I recall from the Pennsylvanian too.)

AFAIK that would be an Amfleet I full cafe, and yes, they do run almost exclusively on the NEC.

d) full dining car service on the Capitol Ltd, CA Zephyr, SW Chief--Superliner cars with a kitchen below and dumbwaiters carrying the food up to a central preparation/distribution area (with the hallway in the center), and with dining tables on both ends of the car. Is this just called a "Superliner diner"? (Are the cars which run on the Empire Builder physically different, or just differently staffed and utilized?) How old are these?

Yes, that would be simply a Superliner diner. These are the same cars that run on the EB, but some of the EB cars are refurbished a bit. There are actually two generations of Superliners: Superliner Is, which were built AFAIK in the late 70's for Amtrak by Pullman-Standard, and the Superliner IIs, which were built around 1993 for Amtrak by Bombardier. Both generations are from a passenger's point of view very similar, apart from the interior furnishings.

e) sightseer lounge and cafe cars on Superliner trains--which I've only ever heard referred to as "Sightseer Lounge" cars. Does the word "lounge" by itself ever refer to a single-level car? I've seen at least two different layouts for the cafe section below, and at least two different upholsteries (if not layouts) for the upstairs, but these are the same generation of cars just before and after a refurbishing, no? I've seen a exterior photo of a Santa Fe car which looked just like the Sightseer Lounge, which suggested to me these might all be inherited equipment, but I don't know if that's true.

The different layouts are a result of the two generations noted above, and to make things further confusing, some of the I's are refurbished to look like II's. The Sightseer Lounges are Superliners and were built for Amtrak. However, the Santa Fe car is a Hi-level Lounge and was inherited by Amtrak. They are now seen on the Coast Starlight as Pacific Parlour Cars. These were actually the cars on which the Superliner design was based.

f) the new service on the Cardinal and Lake Shore Limited (and elsewhere?)--single-level rebuilt cars that were formerly type ©, converted to have fewer tables at one end arranged to accomodate a wheelchair at one (in theory), with the cafe section expanded to include a steam table. I've definitely seen (and used) "diner/lounge" to describe this, but I get the sense that "dinette" has been used interchangably here, as has "diner-lite"? Or are these referring to different car layouts?

Diner-lite and Diner-Lounge are interchangeable, and refer to an "upgraded" Amfleet II lounge. Dinette I believe was used to refer to the car which formerly ran on the Cardinal and provided service somewhere betweem that of a Cafe and that of a Diner-Lounge. Otherwise, it is AFAIK sometimes used as another term for a cafe.

 

[Anthony]

and there's even a tavern lounge with cribbage and bingo!

 

[Mike S.]

Ok..to further this. What was an Am-Dinette?

I know what Am-Cafe's are...but how does an Am-Dinette differ?

 

[Penn Central]

Ok..to further this. What was an Am-Dinette?
I know what Am-Cafe's are...but how does an Am-Dinette differ?

It's sort of like a cross between a diner-lite and an Am-cafe. They seem to run on short trains that happen to have a sleeping car (When there were sleeping cars on the Washington-Boston trains 66-67, it ran with an Am-Dinette). The seating is standard coach seats, not tables, and while the menu is more extensive than the Am-Cafe's, the quality of the food is the same (mediocre to awful). Maybe I just got a bad Am-Dinette car and crew, but my experience on an Am-Dinette was not pleasant at all. Has anyone had a good experience on one of these cars?

 

[PerRock]

Another side note, there was at one time a viewliner diner. I have heard that it is no longer in service, but I rode in it once on the crescent and it was really nice.

true, I didn't list it because last I heard (and saw) it was being scrapped. it is basically the empty hull @ last (recent) picture I've seen.

peter

 

[had8ley]

Ok..to further this. What was an Am-Dinette?
I know what Am-Cafe's are...but how does an Am-Dinette differ?

It's sort of like a cross between a diner-lite and an Am-cafe. They seem to run on short trains that happen to have a sleeping car (When there were sleeping cars on the Washington-Boston trains 66-67, it ran with an Am-Dinette). The seating is standard coach seats, not tables, and while the menu is more extensive than the Am-Cafe's, the quality of the food is the same (mediocre to awful). Maybe I just got a bad Am-Dinette car and crew, but my experience on an Am-Dinette was not pleasant at all. Has anyone had a good experience on one of these cars?

NO...the City of New Orleans ran with one for years and I cannot remember a "good" meal. Subsistence yes; gourmet; absolutely not. There was also a famous character, who I will not name, who was the regular LSA on this run. He opened, closed and cussed whenever he felt like it. Don't dare go back and say this microwave food is cold or could I please have another cup of coffee. You were opening up a can of worms that everyone in the car was made fully aware of. Not a gourmets delight to say the least. Mis-management is not a new innovation at Amtrak.

 

[Sam Damon]

c) a car with tables at one end, a cafe kitchen in the middle, and more tables at the other end. I feel like I'm mostly accustomed to seeing this on NEC Regional Service, but I could be wrong about that. I've always called these "cafe cars" and assumed they were Amfleet II generation, but that might not be right. (Oh, I think this is what I recall from the Pennsylvanian too.)

Just to clarify, what typically runs on #42/43/44 is a "cafe car" but the tables are on the coach side of the train. The car is positioned in the train so that business class is at the rear of the train when it departs 30th Street Station in Philadelphia (owing to the engine change there). These cars are half "cafe car", half business class. The NEC full-business class Amfleets have shown up on #42/43/44 as well on occasion.

Here's a photo of one of those cars while at work in the summer of 2005 on the Pennsylvanian.

Link is courtesy Railfan.net ABPR Archive.

 

[AlanB]

c) a car with tables at one end, a cafe kitchen in the middle, and more tables at the other end. I feel like I'm mostly accustomed to seeing this on NEC Regional Service, but I could be wrong about that. I've always called these "cafe cars" and assumed they were Amfleet II generation, but that might not be right. (Oh, I think this is what I recall from the Pennsylvanian too.)

Just to clarify, what typically runs on #42/43/44 is a "cafe car" but the tables are on the coach side of the train. The car is positioned in the train so that business class is at the rear of the train when it departs 30th Street Station in Philadelphia (owing to the engine change there). These cars are half "cafe car", half business class. The NEC full-business class Amfleets have shown up on #42/43/44 as well on occasion.

Here's a photo of one of those cars while at work in the summer of 2005 on the Pennsylvanian.

Link is courtesy Railfan.net ABPR Archive.

Actually the car that you are describing Sam is called a Club-Dinette, it's a relatively new animal. These cars were originally used as the First Class cars for the former Metroliner service with seating at both ends of the car. As the Metroliners were replaced by Acela, these cars were reworked taking out the seats on one end and adding tables, updating the cafe area, and redoing the remaining seats on the other end with new cushions and the faux leather.

The reconfigured cars now serve as Business class cars on many of Amtrak's routes. The Horizon food service cars are also now being rebuilt in a similar configuration and serve as the Business class on many of the routes out of Chicago.

One interesting side note is that during the Acela brake crisis a few years back, many of the converted Amfleet Club-Dinettes were actually converted back to their original layouts to once again serve as a Metroliner First class car. Onece the crisis was over, they were once again returned to the Club-Dinette layout.

 

[wkaemena]

d) full dining car service on the Capitol Ltd, CA Zephyr, SW Chief--Superliner cars with a kitchen below and dumbwaiters carrying the food up to a central preparation/distribution area (with the hallway in the center), and with dining tables on both ends of the car. Is this just called a "Superliner diner"? (Are the cars which run on the Empire Builder physically different, or just differently staffed and utilized?) How old are these?
e) sightseer lounge and cafe cars on Superliner trains--which I've only ever heard referred to as "Sightseer Lounge" cars. Does the word "lounge" by itself ever refer to a single-level car? I've seen at least two different layouts for the cafe section below, and at least two different upholsteries (if not layouts) for the upstairs, but these are the same generation of cars just before and after a refurbishing, no? I've seen a exterior photo of a Santa Fe car which looked just like the Sightseer Lounge, which suggested to me these might all be inherited equipment, but I don't know if that's true.

For the not so much travelled:

Superliner Diner

Superliner Sightseer

Cafe Section of Superliner Sightseer

 

[Miami Joe]

Word has it the DinerLites are not working out and the Diners will stay in sevice for 10 more yrs!!!!!!!

MJ B)

 

[AmtrakWPK]

THAT is certainly wonderful news as far as I'm concerned. MJ, good to hear from you - don't stay away so long!!!

 

[Trogdor]

How can Amtrak even plan for ten more years, let alone feel confident that those cars will last that long? Amtrak hasn't even issued a five-year plan since David Gunn left.

 

[had8ley]

Well I guess we can keep singing "There's nothing finer than dinner in the diner" until the wheels fall off. I'm not surprised the diner lite is not working; my fear is Amtrak is going to stay with it just because they can. Believe me they have had worse fiascoes that have cost millions.

 

[wayman]

Word has it the DinerLites are not working out and the Diners will stay in sevice for 10 more yrs!!!!!!!

Word from where, if I may ask?

And I'm curious, not working out for capacity reasons or for staffing reasons or for menu reasons, or all of the above, or...? If I had to guess, I'd say "not anywhere near enough capacity, and not enough staff to cope with demand, but the menus are seen as equivalent to the SDS fare with more options and cheaper prices and hence a decent change"; that's my opinion from riding the Cardinal and dining in 28004, at least.

Ten more years--will that entail a lot of maintenance, if not complete overhauls, of the dining car fleets? (What are the ages of the single-level and Superliner diners currently in service anyway?)

 

[sechs]

Amtrak has been needing to buy more rolling stock (both single and bi-level) for some time. But guess what? There's no money!

 

[Bosworth Johnson]

Add a new one to your list. The CCC (country club car? Cross Country Cafe??). Anyway, its what Amtrak is calling the new version of diner lite that went out on the City of New Orleans today, Sunday. The sightseer lounge car has now been eliminated on this train.

I finally figured out that "enhanced" dining service means you still get glasses and plates. That's on the Empire Builder only at this point. Everything else is still experimental, trying to please the knuckleheads in Congress and on the Amtrak board that think passenger train service should be eliminated, and are trying their best by mimicing the airlines (peanuts anybody?).

 

[Miami Joe]

The AMF II DinerLite running in Silver Service has the new blue interior, booths on both ends with a seat missing for handicapped access and a room built for the conductor to do business on the A end.

The small BR was removed for storage space and a stand up freezer is next to the service area on the A end of the car.

MJ B)