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I think that at the very LEAST the Empire Builder, California Zephyr, Southwest Chief and Coast Starlight should retain the Sightseer Car. I think removing the Sightseer car from those routes is going to cause a spike in customer complaints and even lost ridership. Maybe as a compromise they could run the Sightseer Car on those routes during peak travel times, Summer/Fall, the week of Thanksgiving and the week of Christmas. I think removing these cars from the Long Distance West Coast to Chicago routes is going to lose Amtrak more than a few customers.
Well at the moment, at least according the info that Amtrak is releasing, the Empire Builder will not see any changes to its current consist that includes both a normal full diner and a Sightseer lounge car. And considering the rousing sucess that the EB has been for the last year, proving that the entire idea of SDS and Diner Lite is not the correct answer to cutting losses, I don't think that we will see a change on the EB in the near future. It may still happen down the line unless someone at Amtrak actually stops to think and look at the numbers though.

Turning to the other routes, the plan is that the more scenic routes as well as the busier routes, will actually get two Diner Lite cars. One of the converted dining car type, one of the converted Sightseer Lounge type. So in theory the big windows would still be there on the Zephyr and the Chief. The question is, will anyone actually be able to sit in the car and enjoy those windows if it's being used for meal service?
 
Well then what the heck is the point of the whole program. If implemented as you suggest they will only be cutting the total number of cars used on four out of eight routes that run with Superliner equipment. The point of the program is to cut the number of cars used (and the mechanical expenses associated with them) and reduce staffing. Only one of the two major objectives is accomplished if you leave a car in the consist that's earning absolutely no revenue (food service or passenger seating wise).
I don't think putting the lounge inside the dining car is a terrible idea, per say. I like the idea of the dining/lounge car serving from early in the morning until late at night. I think that it could be possible to break even or make a slight profit with the food service on the train with this new concept. However, as with somethings in business, there are certain costs that cannot be avoided and just have to be "absorbed". If Amtrak gets rid of the Sightseer cars they are going to lose some business. Maybe not a lot but some. They are suppose to be finding ways to cut costs and increase ridership. Not cut costs and ridership. Part of the draw of taking a train is to sit back and enjoy the scenery. And be able to get up walk around the train and stretch your legs. If you are only able to go from your coach seat to the dining car, get your food and be asked to return to your seat when you are done so that others can eat, you are effectively eliminating one of the big reasons to take the train. A lot of people also go to the Sightseer car to social. That is also something that is unique to the train. You socialize more on a train than on an airplane. I'm not saying that without the Sightseer car nobody will socialize. Hardly. I socialize plenty when I take the train and I hardly every go to the Sightseer car. But in that respect I am in the minority, as most people do visit the sightseer car.

Now the Cardinal does not have a sightseer car nor does it have a dining car. It has one of the cafe cars. And because it is not a "dining car" it is not very crowded and I have spent hours in that car talking to people and looking at the scenery. The windows are the same as in coach, but I don't feel I am missing anything going through the Corn Fields of Indiana. I think that Amtrak should hold off on converting the sightseer cars.
 
Since I've been a bit critical of Diner Lite in my past few posts in this thread, let me take a moment to add a few thoughts.

First, thanks to Robert for his report.

Second, while I personally believe that Amtrak is barking up the wrong tree with this program, I am relieved to see that at least Amtrak is taking some time with the implimentation of this program and testing things out. Hopefully those tests and their findings will result in changes to how the rest of the cars are converted.

Amtrak seems to be taking a much more hands on and careful approach to introducing Diner Lite to the riding public, than they did initially with SDS which no pun intended, was basically shoved down our throats.

That said, I still don't think that this is the correct idea. As I've mentioned several times in other posts, by Amtrak's own admission, the rebranded Empire Builder is a rousing sucess. It has proved that you can't cut your way to profit, something that by and large Amtrak seems to be trying to do.

Yes one always needs to look for ways to improve things and to cut expenses when possible. But preferably one wants to do that without cutting services and amenities. Sadly too many of the programs and ideas coming out of Amtrak headquarters seem to only have one goal in mind, cutting expenses.

That doesn't lead to happy workers, it doesn't lead to happy customers, and it doesn't lead to actually cutting the losses that Amtrak is currently experiencing. If revenues drop at the same time that costs drop, then no savings has really been achieved. The losses remain at the same level, since even though you've saved money, you've also made less money.

I do realize that the SDS and Diner Lite programs are an outgrowth of the Congressional mandate to cut the losses on food service. But I'm sure that there were other possibilities, other ideas that could have been considered and weren't. Either no one was visionary enough to suggest or think of them, or those in charge simply discarded them out of hand in favor of the mentality "cut staff, cut costs" that seems to exist. And one thing that hasn't been mentioned so far in most discussions is the cost of converting these cars to Diner Lite. The cost is considerable, and one must consider the fact that in many cases, we are converting cars that are 30 years old. That's a lot of money being spent on an old car, for an unproven idea.

I keep returning to the Empire Builder, but it has proved that it is the best way to cut losses. Let's consider the numbers:

In 2005 the EB pulled in about $4 million more than it had in 2004, in 2006 the EB had raised revenue by $6.5 million from the prior year. The FRA allocated loss for the EB went from $15.6 million in 2005 down to $12.9 in 2006, while total overall loss from operating the train went from $43.1M in 2005 down to $35.1M in 2006.

Yes the train still lost money, but thanks to the improved service that was introduced in I believe the second month of the 2006 fiscal year, the Builder increased ridership, increased revenue, and decreased losses, all without cutting services or staffing. Clearly this is the correct answer, not Diner Lite and/or SDS.
 
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I like anything that helps Amtrak's bottom line. If this helps it, as its creators think it will (despite certain conspiracy theorists), than I'm totally behind it. If customers run away screaming, then I'm not.

Hopefully we can all agree on one thing seen in the pictures: Isn't it WAY past time to get rid of the cardboard-box/magic marker "closed" signs? Geez, spend a few bucks on some professional looking signs ("cafe closed till __", "sorry, restroom out of order," etc).
 
Turning to the other routes, the plan is that the more scenic routes as well as the busier routes, will actually get two Diner Lite cars. One of the converted dining car type, one of the converted Sightseer Lounge type. So in theory the big windows would still be there on the Zephyr and the Chief. The question is, will anyone actually be able to sit in the car and enjoy those windows if it's being used for meal service?

Won't that INCREASE costs over the current method? You would need two sets of staff, or have the chiefs doing twice the work, as well as asking waiters to carry food between cars (at high speeds this would probably cause spills at the least (wasted food=wasted money), and possably injury (medical bills or lawsuit)).

The other option would be to use the cars like they are being used now, only with a ton of usless features (kitchen in lounge, cafe in diner) which would obviously keep fuel usage steady, while reducing usable space.
 
Turning to the other routes, the plan is that the more scenic routes as well as the busier routes, will actually get two Diner Lite cars. One of the converted dining car type, one of the converted Sightseer Lounge type. So in theory the big windows would still be there on the Zephyr and the Chief. The question is, will anyone actually be able to sit in the car and enjoy those windows if it's being used for meal service?
Won't that INCREASE costs over the current method? You would need two sets of staff, or have the chiefs doing twice the work, as well as asking waiters to carry food between cars (at high speeds this would probably cause spills at the least (wasted food=wasted money), and possably injury (medical bills or lawsuit)).

The other option would be to use the cars like they are being used now, only with a ton of usless features (kitchen in lounge, cafe in diner) which would obviously keep fuel usage steady, while reducing usable space.
I'm not actually positive just how Amtrak will implement this, since all the details haven't been released. My belief is that one car will operate as a dining car, while the other operates as the cafe; as you surmised in your second paragraph. It is possible that they will operate both as Diner Lite's though and while that would increase staffing, the odds are that it would also increase revenue to offset that increased staffing. As it is now, far too many coach passengers never make it into the dining car thanks to the reduced capacity brought on by SDS.

As for carrying food from one car to another, while I don't believe that will happen in this case, you should know that Amtrak does this quite successfully on the Auto Train. The AT's lounge cars were specially remodeled for use on that train. They actually have 6 tables I believe, might be 8, in the lounge car for use by the dining car. On busy trips, passengers are often seated in the lounge car at those tables, and served from the dining car with the staff carrying everything between the two cars.
 
Robert -

I'd also like to thank you for a great report. It appears Amtrak is taking the right steps to evaluate the effectiveness of the Diner-Lite/Lounge concept, but it also appears they want to reach a solution relatively soon. I just hope they allow sufficient time for the concept to prove its worth one way or the other before converting the other cars.

Granted, I do not have the depth of experience that others have, but it appears to me there should be additional standard table seating capacity. I certainly see the benefit of the new seating arrangement and it appears the seats are comfortable, i.e. more comfortable than the "hard" seats one finds in some cafe cars. For that matter, the car appears to have a more pleasant and modern decor than the "manufactured" decor of some cafe cars. In my opinion, I guess its a question of how practical the seating arrangements work out for folks sitting down to enjoy their meals. Too bad there is no practical way to rearrange the seating configuration while en-route.

I wonder if they can dim the overhead lights or if there are reading lights.

Cheers!

Deimos
 
What I heard from this report is that the tables that are best for meal service can only hold two people comfortably. The tables that can hold more do not have a table big enough or close enough for eating a meal which makes them better for "lounging." However, those tables face IN and not out towards the windows.

Who is designing these things? I know they are already talking about changes, but how could such a bad design get all the way to a test car?
 
Your pictures are nice. It looks like it will be a fun, comfortable place. My only hope would be that the dining/lounge car can be kept cleaner than the present lounge. Not everyone picks up after themselves and I wouldn't want to eat on a table that has stuff left there from previous occupants.
 
As for carrying food from one car to another, while I don't believe that will happen in this case, you should know that Amtrak does this quite successfully on the Auto Train. The AT's lounge cars were specially remodeled for use on that train. They actually have 6 tables I believe, might be 8, in the lounge car for use by the dining car. On busy trips, passengers are often seated in the lounge car at those tables, and served from the dining car with the staff carrying everything between the two cars.

That sightseer car has eight tables instead of the seats that face the windows. I had one on the eastbound SWC over thanksgiving. I actually thought it was a good idea. Those tables were never used as overflow seating for the dining car. The dining car always had excess table space om my otherwise sold out train. It did give families and folks traveling together a place to sit and work or relax. My family used it to play board games. Another pulled out the chess set.

image047.jpg


I like that car layout becasue it increases the overall number of seats in the car.

Rick
 
As for carrying food from one car to another, while I don't believe that will happen in this case, you should know that Amtrak does this quite successfully on the Auto Train. The AT's lounge cars were specially remodeled for use on that train. They actually have 6 tables I believe, might be 8, in the lounge car for use by the dining car. On busy trips, passengers are often seated in the lounge car at those tables, and served from the dining car with the staff carrying everything between the two cars.
That sightseer car has eight tables instead of the seats that face the windows. I had one on the eastbound SWC over thanksgiving. I actually thought it was a good idea. Those tables were never used as overflow seating for the dining car. The dining car always had excess table space om my otherwise sold out train. It did give families and folks traveling together a place to sit and work or relax. My family used it to play board games. Another pulled out the chess set.
I too have seen a few of those lounges where during a refurb, tables were added to the car on the upper level. I personally have mixed feelings about that, as overall I think that the older seats similar to what remains in the rest of the car, were a better choice. We certainly needed a normal Sightseer Lounge this past summer on the EB, as many people were not happy with sitting at those tables just to see the sights.

That said however, as a general rule, the AT does not use Sightseer Lounge cars. The AT has 5 converted ex-dining cars as its lounge cars. These cars are unique in their green seats and have no other comparisons in the Amtrak fleet. When one or more of these cars are bad ordered, or the AT is extremely busy, then you may occasionally see a Sightseer Lounge car running that route. But again, that is the rarity, not the norm.
 
We certainly needed a normal Sightseer Lounge this past summer on the EB, as many people were not happy with sitting at those tables just to see the sights.
Your fellow EB passengers may not have been happy sitting in those seats to view the sights, but at least they were sitting. More than once on the westbound SWC (with a standard issue sightseer car) did I see all the seats or seating units occupied.

Rick
 
If Amtrak gets rid of the Sightseer cars they are going to lose some business. Maybe not a lot but some.
and these passengers will be flocking to the airlines or rental cars for their fabulouss sightseer lounges instead? people who ride trains will still ride trains regardless of whether there is a separate place to dine and sightsee.
 
If Amtrak gets rid of the Sightseer cars they are going to lose some business. Maybe not a lot but some.
and these passengers will be flocking to the airlines or rental cars for their fabulouss sightseer lounges instead? people who ride trains will still ride trains regardless of whether there is a separate place to dine and sightsee.
i agree that amtrak will lose some revenue by getting rid of the lounges. there are already rail journeys we don't make because amtrak doesn't offer the service in a manner we are willing to pay for. would love to go spk-emy but the return is only offered as a train/bus combo. no thanks. would like easier acess from spk to salt lake city for trips to the canyonlands but it isn't offered so we choose a different mode of transport. get rid of the lounges and there may well be more trips we do otherwise than by rail(would consider driving spk-pdx as a main reason to go by train are the views from the lounge car of the columbia from the north bank). also, travelling as a family we use the lounge car a lot(whether going first class or coach) for conversation, games and sightseeing
 
I too have seen a few of those lounges where during a refurb, tables were added to the car on the upper level. I personally have mixed feelings about that, as overall I think that the older seats similar to what remains in the rest of the car, were a better choice. We certainly needed a normal Sightseer Lounge this past summer on the EB, as many people were not happy with sitting at those tables just to see the sights.
That said however, as a general rule, the AT does not use Sightseer Lounge cars. The AT has 5 converted ex-dining cars as its lounge cars. These cars are unique in their green seats and have no other comparisons in the Amtrak fleet. When one or more of these cars are bad ordered, or the AT is extremely busy, then you may occasionally see a Sightseer Lounge car running that route. But again, that is the rarity, not the norm.
Actually it was the Auto Train boys that pioneered the concept of putting tables in a Sightseer. Following the AT derailment 2 lounges went out of service, reducing their fleet to three, but they need four to run regular service, so a Sightseer was always running along with two Diners. A few years ago they tried installing booths in a Sightseer and run it as they would a typical lounge (the 33035), and the experiemnt stuck. This car sees fairly regular service on Auto Train (or at least it did before the 33100 came back, it may have been since reassigned).
 
One "con" I can think of with the diner-lounge is that some folks may want a more "elegant" dining experience, while the diner-lounge is run more like a sports bar/grill. The food quality is as good as anything Amtrak has to offer, but, for example, last night for dinner, a friend and I were enjoying our steak (for me) and chicken (for him), while across the aisle, three or four younger folks were regaling us with their intimiate familiarity of the penal code in Virginia, on account of first-hand experience they or their friends had.
Having people that want to lounge around and play music may not set well with an elderly couple that wants to have a nice, quiet dinner. However, Amtrak does (even on other trains) offer a take-out option for the dining car menu, though it is perhaps "pushed" a bit more with the diner-lounge.
Good report, but this comment reinforces my concern on the diner-lounges. I think diner-lounges are a good idea on trains with smaller passenger loads, but I hope Amtak learns from this.

For many of us, elderly or not, there is no fun in having to share experiences with good ol boys in the lounge when you are trying to enjoy a good dinner with your wife. Sort of like having someone's annoying cell phone conversation within earshot. Separate the dining and lounge areas! Also I gather the view is of 'loungers' across the aisle rather than the great scenery. Seems to me Amtrak is missing what train travel is all about.
 
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Who said Amtrak was getting rid of sightseer lounges? Amtrak is *not* going to do away with the sightseer lounge.

Also, the sightseer lounges converted to a diner-lounge configuration will be different from the dining cars being so converted. I'm not sure how they'll be different, exactly, but I was told by at least one Amtrak service manager that they would be different.

As for the inward-facing seats in the lounge, those are good for folks that just want to sit down and chat, and perhaps munch on a snack or two. A larger table would also make them better for dining service. The tables that currently only seat two comfortably will be reconfigured to (hopefully) accommodate four.

I wouldn't be so quick as to condemn the design, and ask how "such a bad design" could make it onto a test car. The fact is, not everything can be anticipated based on a paper design. That's the whole purpose of the test. We should be glad that Amtrak is running a test and gaining feedback before going into production.

On the other hand, Airbus's $10+ billion A380 program is several years late, and the currently produced planes won't be delivered to airlines until late next year because of issues with certain parts of the design not quite fitting properly (primarily in the wiring). How could such a bad design make it all the way to production? How could Microsoft Windows (and Internet Explorer) be released with so many bugs and security holes, that require continuous patching?

If you've found the perfect design, please let us know.

Despite the diner-lounge's shortcomings, I think it is a positive step towards improving the efficiency of Amtrak's food-service operations. It should certainly improve the revenue of the car by making the service more inviting, especially to those that may feel intimidated by the existing dining car's style and prices. For those that want good dining car food, the diner-lounge is much more capable of providing that under simplified dining service than the existing dining car design (which was designed around a staff of 6 to 8 rather than a staff of 3 to 4).

The experience on train 29(16) exemplifies the benefits of the diner-lounge concept. When certain Amtrak managers noticed that bookings were fairly high on that train, they made the decision to run the regular dining car. If ridership on that train was fairly light, they could have done without the dining car, saved money, and still provided essentially the same level of service to the passengers (albeit in a different atmosphere).

Based on my conversations with those managers, as well as a friend on the customer advisory council, it seems that Amtrak desires to be much more customer-service focused than the company has in years past. They could have said "to hell with it" and ran only the diner-lounge on that train, but they took the extra step to add food-service capacity based on the loadings. There are people within Amtrak that want to see the company, and its long-distance services, succeed. If given half a chance, they'll certainly do well.
 
As for the inward-facing seats in the lounge, those are good for folks that just want to sit down and chat, and perhaps munch on a snack or two. A larger table would also make them better for dining service. The tables that currently only seat two comfortably will be reconfigured to (hopefully) accommodate four.
I wouldn't be so quick as to condemn the design, and ask how "such a bad design" could make it onto a test car. The fact is, not everything can be anticipated based on a paper design. That's the whole purpose of the test. We should be glad that Amtrak is running a test and gaining feedback before going into production.
Let me just say that in a diner/lounge, there should not be ANY inward facing seats. On LD trains, people want to see out the windows. They should at least be booth style so you can look out fairly easily.

Just my 2 cents
 
I too have seen a few of those lounges where during a refurb, tables were added to the car on the upper level. I personally have mixed feelings about that, as overall I think that the older seats similar to what remains in the rest of the car, were a better choice. We certainly needed a normal Sightseer Lounge this past summer on the EB, as many people were not happy with sitting at those tables just to see the sights.
That said however, as a general rule, the AT does not use Sightseer Lounge cars. The AT has 5 converted ex-dining cars as its lounge cars. These cars are unique in their green seats and have no other comparisons in the Amtrak fleet. When one or more of these cars are bad ordered, or the AT is extremely busy, then you may occasionally see a Sightseer Lounge car running that route. But again, that is the rarity, not the norm.
Actually it was the Auto Train boys that pioneered the concept of putting tables in a Sightseer. Following the AT derailment 2 lounges went out of service, reducing their fleet to three, but they need four to run regular service, so a Sightseer was always running along with two Diners. A few years ago they tried installing booths in a Sightseer and run it as they would a typical lounge (the 33035), and the experiemnt stuck. This car sees fairly regular service on Auto Train (or at least it did before the 33100 came back, it may have been since reassigned).
Sean,

33035 has since been reassigned it was running on 7/8 at the beginning of the new improvments. Not sure where it is now.
 
Let me just say that in a diner/lounge, there should not be ANY inward facing seats. On LD trains, people want to see out the windows. They should at least be booth style so you can look out fairly easily.
Just my 2 cents
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, passengers seemed to use the aisle-facing seats as well, even when window-facing seats were available. The advantage to those is that you can seat five people at one table. The window-facing seats can only seat two (comfortably) now, or perhaps four depending on the success of the redesign.
 
Who said Amtrak was getting rid of sightseer lounges? Amtrak is *not* going to do away with the sightseer lounge.
Amtrak said that they were getting rid of the Sightseer Lounges, although not formally. But it was reported in Amtrak Ink, the employee newsletter, that 40 Sightseer Lounges would be converted to Diner Lite configurations once all 12 dining cars were finished. Amtrak only carries 45 Sightseer Lounges on its active roster, so if they are converting 40 of them, that pretty much spells the end of Sightseer Lounges for Amtrak.

The remaining 5 would most likely be assigned to Empire Builder service.

Also, the sightseer lounges converted to a diner-lounge configuration will be different from the dining cars being so converted. I'm not sure how they'll be different, exactly, but I was told by at least one Amtrak service manager that they would be different.
Well at least a few of the differences will be that Amtrak is going to farm that work out, meaning it won't be done by Beech Grove and the cars will need a lot more work since they have none of the food prep equipment that the diner's do. Beyond that, other than the fact that the nice windows won't be replaced with diner type windows, I'm not aware of any other differences that are planned.

I wouldn't be so quick as to condemn the design, and ask how "such a bad design" could make it onto a test car. The fact is, not everything can be anticipated based on a paper design. That's the whole purpose of the test. We should be glad that Amtrak is running a test and gaining feedback before going into production.
Despite the diner-lounge's shortcomings, I think it is a positive step towards improving the efficiency of Amtrak's food-service operations. It should certainly improve the revenue of the car by making the service more inviting, especially to those that may feel intimidated by the existing dining car's style and prices. For those that want good dining car food, the diner-lounge is much more capable of providing that under simplified dining service than the existing dining car design (which was designed around a staff of 6 to 8 rather than a staff of 3 to 4).
On this point I whole heartedly agree with you Robert, Amtrak has at least been wise in taking baby steps with this idea, waiting for reactions both from crews and passengers, before rolling out dozens of cars that don't work.

The experience on train 29(16) exemplifies the benefits of the diner-lounge concept. When certain Amtrak managers noticed that bookings were fairly high on that train, they made the decision to run the regular dining car. If ridership on that train was fairly light, they could have done without the dining car, saved money, and still provided essentially the same level of service to the passengers (albeit in a different atmosphere).
Based on my conversations with those managers, as well as a friend on the customer advisory council, it seems that Amtrak desires to be much more customer-service focused than the company has in years past. They could have said "to hell with it" and ran only the diner-lounge on that train, but they took the extra step to add food-service capacity based on the loadings. There are people within Amtrak that want to see the company, and its long-distance services, succeed. If given half a chance, they'll certainly do well.
How sure of that are you? Amtrak released the schedule over a month ago, so I'm not sure just how stable the booking were at that point, such that they could properly decide which trains should get only Diner Lite, which trains got a Diner Lite car and a normal dining car, as well as which trains ran normally with both a regular diner and a regular Sightseer Lounge car.
 
A sightseer lounge converted to diner-lounge configuration will still be a sightseer lounge.

As for the Capitol Limited getting both a diner and a diner-lounge, the managers on board said that the decision to add a regular diner was made within the last few days before the trip. The trip was originally scheduled to operate with only a diner-lounge, but a surge in bookings caused them to change their mind.
 
A sightseer lounge converted to diner-lounge configuration will still be a sightseer lounge.
With all respect Robert, if a passenger can't remain in the car to enjoy the scenery because the LSA needs the seats for lunch, then a converted Sightseer Lounge in no longer serving it's primary function, which is to provide a place for a passenger to relax and enjoy the world.

It has instead become nothing more than a food service car, with some really nice windows that one can only take advantage of for about 3 hours a day during meal times.
 
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