Current EB OTP

[Bob Dylan]

Well Here We Go Again!! With a Shutdown of this Length No Reason that Amtrak can't use the Sleepers and Coaches that Normally are on the EB or in Reserve and Move them to the CZ and SWC and then the CS Route! Sort of the Old Pioneer/Desert Wind Redux combined with the CZ!! Know the Crew would like the Work instead of having to Lay Off w/o Pay!

The Previous Thread on this Mostly had people pointing out why this Wouldnt Work But Two Weeks, they need to have a Plan as other Posters suggested!? This is the Buisiest time of the Year on the Western Trains and Amtrak doesnt need To Lose Any More Revenue by Cancelling the Trains between Montana and Minnesota! Maybe they could even run the Route through Wyoming like the CZ does when an Alternate is needed, then go up to Washington/Oregon Via the Old Routes that arent being used Right now or just by Freight! Slow Trains Beat No Trains!! :help:

Gonna be a Tough Ticket on the CZ/SWC/TE/SSL, even more so than Currently! :excl: :excl: :excl:

 

[AlanB]

The live call said I would be bustituted from SPK to PDX where I connect with the CS. 27, if on time, arrives just after 10:00 am in PDX. My experience is the buses can be 2-3 hours faster. Correct? That would make for a long connection time in PDX.
I am wondering whether I should try to take the SEA bustitute instead and connect with train 11 there? Less waiting time. More train time on 11. Update: Just spoke with Amtrak. Even though the Seattle bus would arguably arrive in time for 11's departure, they say they cannot make that change. Their policy is to assume the bus would arrive at the scheduled arrival time as the train (which in this case would be too late for 11's departure).

They're not letting you take the bus to Seattle because based upon my understanding of things, there is no bus. They are only busing Portland to Spokane, since that side sees less ridership. The train is making the run from Seattle to Spokane and then on to Havre, with the bused pax from Portland connecting in Spokane.

So enjoy your extra time in Portland, either in the lounge if you're entitled or take a spin on the light rail to kill some time.

 

[AlanB]

Well Here We Go Again!! With a Shutdown of this Length No Reason that Amtrak can't use the Sleepers and Coaches that Normally are on the EB or in Reserve and Move them to the CZ and SWC and then the CS Route! Sort of the old Pioneer/Desert Wind Redux!

The Previous Thread on this Mostly had people pointing out why this Wouldnt Work But Two Weeks, they need to have a Plan as other Posters suggested!? This is the Buisiest time of the Year on the Western Trains and Amtrak doesnt need To Lose Any More Revenue by Cancelling the Trains between Montana and Minnesota! Maybe they could even run the Route through Wyoming like the CZ does when an Alternate is needed, then go up to Washington/Oregon Via the Old Routes that arent being used Right now or just by Freight! Slow Trains Beat No Trains!! :help:

Gonna be a Tough Ticket on the CZ/SWC/TE/SSL, even more so than Currently! :excl: :excl: :excl:

There aren't going to be many "spare" coaches. They're still running the train between Chicago and Minn/St. Paul as well as Seattle to Havre. At best maybe that would free up 10 to 12 coaches, and that assumes that they don't add extra coaches to the stub trains to accomodate those losing sleepers for their trips.

Adding an extra coach to the Zephyr would require a minimum of 6 coaches. Then you need 4 more to add the extra capacity to the Coast Starlight just to get the people from Chicago to either Portland or Seattle. So if Amtrak doesn't use any extra coaches on the stub trains, they just barely have enough to do the job. It's almost not worth the effort to move all those cars out of place for two weeks.

Sleepers, yes, they have more to go around. But now you've got to find crew, put them up in various hotels and you've got to increase the crew in the dining cars to handle the additional load. The EB already runs a full diner with 3 sleepers and part of the Trans/Dorm sold. The Zephyr also runs full with 3 sleepers and the Trans/Dorm. Adding a 4th sleeper is really going to tax the dining car. On the Coast Starlight things might be a bit better, since you've got the PPC serving a few meals, but even still adding a 4th sleeper is going to tax the diner.

You also have to consider that Amtrak is now providing 4 days of meals for the same price, instead of 3 days worth of meals.

And on both trains it is quite possible that adding one car could require the addition of a third locomotive, certainly adding both a coach & a sleeper will require a second motor. It's not like Amtrak's got lots of extra engines just sitting around.

Finally, there is the futility factor, in that how does one fit the load of the EB and all of its cars into 1 sleeper and 1 coach? And adding a second sleeper would be out of the question in terms of diner capacity.

Mind you I'm upset that Amtrak is essentially leaving people stranded because of the flooding problems. But adding more cars to the other trains isn't as simple and easy as people would like to believe. It's not just saying "Hey, let's hook up a an extra car to tomorrow consist.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Valid Points Alan! But couldnt the CCCs be used a Diner and even consider running Amfleet Coaches with the TransDorm hooked to them! I think plenty of Extra Board People would rather have the Full Trip between the West Coast than just a Stub Train with a Turn Around in Montanna! The Easiest to fix is the CHI to Montana section since there are more Spares and Crew in the CHI Base IINM?? What about Running the Old Pioneer Route through SLC, Cut Out the Through Cars there for PDX/Seattle, perhaps Amfleet/Horizon Coaches could be used for a SEA/PDX shuttle Train! Anything would be better than NO TRAINS for Two More Weeks! I know its Hard but Not Doing Anything is Just Ammo for the Anti-Rail Crowd IMO!!! :help: :help: :help:

 

[NY Penn]

What about totally or partially rerouting via the old NCH (if there are tracks allowing this)? Better than stranding all of the CHI-West Coast passengers.

 

[Tumbleweed]

Please tell me again why the EB couldn't be temporarily run over the old North Coast Limited route (with a few designated stops) in order to provide through service CHI-SEA/PDX.....passengers could arrange to have their tickets in hand and be ready to board/deboard at said designated stops....no need for them to be attended....

 

[AlanB]

Valid Points Alan! But couldnt the CCCs be used a Diner and even consider running Amfleet Coaches with the TransDorm hooked to them! I think plenty of Extra Board People would rather have the Full Trip between the West Coast than just a Stub Train with a Turn Around in Montanna! The Easiest to fix is the CHI to Montana section since there are more Spares and Crew in the CHI Base IINM??

Sure! But at what cost?

Again, remember that people are paying Amtrak for 3 days; not 4. That's an awful lot of expense to incur with no increase in revenue.

What about Running the Old Pioneer Route through SLC, Cut Out the Through Cars there for PDX/Seattle, perhaps Amfleet/Horizon Coaches could be used for a SEA/PDX shuttle Train!

Requires permission from the host RR and pilot crews, a huge expense. And I rather suspect that the route isn't up to passenger speeds.

Anything would be better than NO TRAINS for Two More Weeks! I know its Hard but Not Doing Anything is Just Ammo for the Anti-Rail Crowd IMO!!! :help: :help: :help:

The anti-rail crowd will yell no matter what. Put extra cars on and they'll yell about the extra costs. Don't put the extra cars on and they'll yell about all the stranded people. It won't matter what Amtrak does, the anti-rail crowd will still yell about something. There will never be a way to please them. Heck, for some even if Amtrak made a true profit and paid dividends, they'd still probably find some reason to yell.

 

[PRR 60]

I think Amtrak is kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place with this line closure. Any logical detour routes would be clogged with detouring freight. Even assuming the detour line railroad would be able to accept Amtrak, using routes not normally used by Amtrak would require pilot crews from the host railroad. Delays on any detour could be epic, and operation costs would be high.

Adding cars to existing trains is a seemingly attractive option, but right now, if passengers have some flexibility, there is availability on the alternate routes even without adding cars. I think most passengers will find other ways to make the trip, either on Amtrak or by some other means, or they will cancel and delay the trip until after things stabilize up there.

 

[Bruce-C]

The anti-rail crowd will yell no matter what. Put extra cars on and they'll yell about the extra costs. Don't put the extra cars on and they'll yell about all the stranded people. It won't matter what Amtrak does, the anti-rail crowd will still yell about something. There will never be a way to please them. Heck, for some even if Amtrak made a true profit and paid dividends, they'd still probably find some reason to yell.

Alan

Somebody, somewhere, must have had a plan for a situation Amtrak now finds itself in with the western trains and LSL.

I'm not anti-rail, but I just want to go coast to coast. Be reasonably on time at EACH of my connections. And not have to get off the train and be put on a bus when I paid for a train.

Personally It's no big deal. If Amtrak is still screwing around when time gets near for my trip in the middle of July, I'll cancel and fly to NY. When Amtrak gets their act together maybe I'll come back.

 

[Mackensen]

The anti-rail crowd will yell no matter what. Put extra cars on and they'll yell about the extra costs. Don't put the extra cars on and they'll yell about all the stranded people. It won't matter what Amtrak does, the anti-rail crowd will still yell about something. There will never be a way to please them. Heck, for some even if Amtrak made a true profit and paid dividends, they'd still probably find some reason to yell.

Alan

Somebody, somewhere, must have had a plan for a situation Amtrak now finds itself in with the western trains and LSL.

I'm not anti-rail, but I just want to go coast to coast. Be reasonably on time at EACH of my connections. And not have to get off the train and be put on a bus when I paid for a train.

Personally It's no big deal. If Amtrak is still screwing around when time gets near for my trip in the middle of July, I'll cancel and fly to NY. When Amtrak gets their act together maybe I'll come back.

Absent the worst floods in over a 100 years this would more or less be possible. Honestly, it's like blaming the airlines for the Icelandic volcano.

 

[Bruce-C]

Absent the worst floods in over a 100 years this would more or less be possible. Honestly, it's like blaming the airlines for the Icelandic volcano.

The bottom line is that SOMEONE has to make a decision! This flooding has been on-going for 6 weeks. Has there been an alternate passenger routing planned by Amtrak?? I don't know, but it doesn't look like it!

There has been constant discussion on the OTP of the Builder and other routes on this and other websites. And we all know how much that's worth(That's why I'm sounding off now, I have a trip coming up and I don't know if it will happen).

If someone has to say "shut it down 'til August", well do it!!! Make other arrangements for your passengers. If possible, move the sleepers, some coaches and their crews to routes that are currently operating on schedule. Start now by calling/e-mailing LD ticket-holders on the affected routes and offer them alternate travel to their destinations.

There is no amount of hand-wringing that' going to stop the flooding, we all know that. We are also not stupid enough to think the water will go away next week, the track condition will be fine and all the stacked-up freight will be on it's way to it's destination. Damn it, give the consumer a little more credit than that.

But the current practice of having trains stack up, be running many hours late, busstitutions when you(Amtrak) KNOWS the track is down for more than a day before the actual bus ride is to occur, putting passengers up for the night because of Amtrak's direct failure to react to a natural disaster must stop!!

Big deal, a passenger gets a free nights lodging, but he or she is still a day (or more) late for his destination simply because the people who run AMTRAK will not do their jobs and make a decision on how long to abandon a track.

Amtrak, just stop jerking the consumers chain and do something, that's why all the suits make the big bucks!

 

[anir dendroica]

The flooding has been ongoing since April, but there have been different factors at play.

1. Unprecedented snowmelt (April) raised Devils Lake to within 1 foot of the tracks and resulted in mud boils and slow orders on the detour Surrey Cutoff route.

2. Wave action during high winds damaged the Devils Lake crossing (late May).

3. Unprecedented rainfall (late May, early June) in Montana raised the Missouri River above flood stage, necessitating track raises and creating slow orders.

4. Unprecedented rainfall in Saskatchewan overwhelmed the flood control system on the Souris River, closing the BNSF northern transcon (two week closure estimated to begin midday tomorrow, per BNSF).

While I do wish Amtrak were better at keeping customers updated, I don't blame them for expecting things to be back to normal by now - they would have been had it not been for the ongoing record rainfall.

The good news is that

1. Rain has ended in Montana, and rivers are beginning to fall.

2. BNSF has agreed to spend $2.5 million to dump rip-rap near Devils Lake as a stopgap measure.

3. The Devils Lake basin has not seen much in the way of heavy rains.

4. Slow orders on the Surrey cutoff are being eliminated as repairs are completed and the soil dries out.

5. Closure of the BNSF tracks at Minot should accelerate the pace of repairs elsewhere on the line, as most train traffic will be curtailed.

6. The weather pattern that has brought heavy rain to the northern plains for the past month appears to be changing, with below-normal precipitation forecast out to 14 days.

Thus I will hazard a guess that once the situation in Minot is resolved (which could easily be 2-3 weeks), the EB will be able to operate more-or-less on time for the first time since last November.

For those suggesting a reroute on the line through Bismarck and Billings, keep in mind that BNSF will be trying to detour all of its northern transcon traffic through there. That means fleets of trains, crews dying on hours, and epic (think 24-hour) delays for any passenger train trying to negotiate that mess.

Mark

 

[The Journalist]

To give some sense of the level of these rivers, Minot is now being evacuated: Link

Edit: why can't I spell today?

 

[Mackensen]

Absent the worst floods in over a 100 years this would more or less be possible. Honestly, it's like blaming the airlines for the Icelandic volcano.

The bottom line is that SOMEONE has to make a decision! This flooding has been on-going for 6 weeks. Has there been an alternate passenger routing planned by Amtrak?? I don't know, but it doesn't look like it!

There has been constant discussion on the OTP of the Builder and other routes on this and other websites. And we all know how much that's worth(That's why I'm sounding off now, I have a trip coming up and I don't know if it will happen).

If someone has to say "shut it down 'til August", well do it!!! Make other arrangements for your passengers. If possible, move the sleepers, some coaches and their crews to routes that are currently operating on schedule. Start now by calling/e-mailing LD ticket-holders on the affected routes and offer them alternate travel to their destinations.

There is no amount of hand-wringing that' going to stop the flooding, we all know that. We are also not stupid enough to think the water will go away next week, the track condition will be fine and all the stacked-up freight will be on it's way to it's destination. Damn it, give the consumer a little more credit than that.

But the current practice of having trains stack up, be running many hours late, busstitutions when you(Amtrak) KNOWS the track is down for more than a day before the actual bus ride is to occur, putting passengers up for the night because of Amtrak's direct failure to react to a natural disaster must stop!!

Big deal, a passenger gets a free nights lodging, but he or she is still a day (or more) late for his destination simply because the people who run AMTRAK will not do their jobs and make a decision on how long to abandon a track.

Amtrak, just stop jerking the consumers chain and do something, that's why all the suits make the big bucks!

I can't quite apprehend where you're coming from. There isn't an alternative--not one that could be readied on short notice. The closest thing to a secondary route, which would bypass all the various floods (more on that below), is the old Northern Pacific main line. This runs through Bismarck, North Dakota to Missoula, Montana. It last saw service in 1979, when budget cuts under the Carter administration forced the discontinuance of the North Coast Hiawatha. Under Congress' direction, Amtrak studied the possibility of resuming that service and released a report in 2009. Amtrak estimated capital costs rehabbing that route at somewhere north of $300 million. It would also require the cooperation of the BNSF and the Montana Rail Link. The latter has never hosted passenger service and to the best of my knowledge is under no obligation to do so. Someone more familiar with whether Burlington's obligation would transfer to a short-line operator can chime in here.

In any event, a thousand-mile detour over unfamiliar territory is a massive undertaking. Doing so would bypass numerous revenue stops, eliminating much of the Builder's reason to exist. Amtrak already has Chicago-Seattle/Portland service via the Zephyr. I've been on the Builder twice--many passengers are heading to intermediate stops. Amtrak would need crew bases in these regions; pilots for the track. This all assumes passenger operation at anything approaching a decent speed and regularity. There's a 60-mile stretch of the MRL controlled by track warrants and limited to 49 mph.

This brings me around to another point. The Builder has experienced several different, discrete floods along different sections of the route. To speak of a single natural disaster is misleading. When possible, Amtrak re-routed the Builder along the so-called KO Subdivision to avoid the flood around Devils Lake. This new flood takes out Minot, and with it the Northern Transcon, a very important route and vital to the BNSF. Unless the BNSF employs rainmakers I doubt anyone saw this coming. Far more commerce than Amtrak is stuck on a siding waiting for the heavens to close.

Anyway, I appreciate your frustration as a traveler. I considered myself lucky in May when the Builder was only four hours late into Chicago. But what would you have Amtrak do? There are no short-term expedients here. Closing the Builder until August makes little sense when it has been back in service even in the last week and will be again by the middle of July. A closed Builder when the tracks are perfectly fine would be silly at best.

 

[mwmnp]

KXMC-TV in Minot has placed a webcam just to the east of the Broadway bridge and Amtrak station to keep tabs on the river through that area. The camera also provides a view on the tracks, and this morning captured the final Empire Builders to pass through Minot until further notice. #8 departed about 13 hours late, while #7 arrived about 2.5 hours late. They met each other a few miles east of town. Here's what the camera east of the station saw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvUmuOQm8Yk

In case you're wondering why put a webcam in this location, which seems to have a poor view of the river, the TV station explained that the point isn't to watch the river rise, but to see when (or if) the water tops the dike beyond on the tracks near the base of the treeline and begins pouring into the city.

 

[Tumbleweed]

and it isn't getting any better......

 

[Amtrak George]

THE BUILDER DILEMMA: first, I applaud Amtrak for running stub trains Chgo-twin cities and West Coast- Havre. It is good to give the residents of the line some service. Now, about those transcontinental travelers who are displaced; Amtrak needs a plan in place for finding alternatives when a train is cancelled for a long time. It would be good to honor Builder tickets on an alternate route but if not financially possible, Amtrak could still say we can give you a full refund OR you can pay X more on another route where we added capacity.

It is futile to try to detour the whole train on a really long trip with widespread flooding, no servicing facilities, no qualified Amtrak operating crews, and freight congestion. What CAN be done is adding a one coach to each run of the Chief and one sleeper to each run of the Zephyr (or vice versa depending on demand). Increase dining car crew size and supplies to handle the influx. Use service crews that are currently furloughed. Also add a car or two to the Starlight if available. You wouldn't be able to handle the entire Builder load but you wouldn't have to. Just do the best you can and it would be better than the efforts now being made (none). Plan to put these cars in the system for 2 weeks, then reassess. It is a small gesture, but would really reap benefits in goodwill in addition to getting people where they are going instead of them having to abandon rail travel.

 

[jmbgeg]

THE BUILDER DILEMMA: first, I applaud Amtrak for running stub trains Chgo-twin cities and West Coast- Havre. It is good to give the residents of the line some service. Now, about those transcontinental travelers who are displaced; Amtrak needs a plan in place for finding alternatives when a train is cancelled for a long time. It would be good to honor Builder tickets on an alternate route but if not financially possible, Amtrak could still say we can give you a full refund OR you can pay X more on another route where we added capacity.

It is futile to try to detour the whole train on a really long trip with widespread flooding, no servicing facilities, no qualified Amtrak operating crews, and freight congestion. What CAN be done is adding a one coach to each run of the Chief and one sleeper to each run of the Zephyr (or vice versa depending on demand). Increase dining car crew size and supplies to handle the influx. Use service crews that are currently furloughed. Also add a car or two to the Starlight if available. You wouldn't be able to handle the entire Builder load but you wouldn't have to. Just do the best you can and it would be better than the efforts now being made (none). Plan to put these cars in the system for 2 weeks, then reassess. It is a small gesture, but would really reap benefits in goodwill in addition to getting people where they are going instead of them having to abandon rail travel.

I am booked on train 27 Thursday. They say they are bussing us. What happened to the western stub train???

 

[Amtrak George]

Western stub train: all I can glean from Amtrak's website is a combination of bus and train from Seattle and Portland to Spokane, then train Spokane to Havre, then train runs back West. You might check out the service notice on the website and if you can decipher it....George

 

[anir dendroica]

I am booked on train 27 Thursday. They say they are bussing us. What happened to the western stub train???

I believe 27/28 is a bus, while 7/8 (train) is running between Seattle and Havre.

Mark

 

[TransitGeek]

I am booked on train 27 Thursday. They say they are bussing us. What happened to the western stub train???

I believe 27/28 is a bus, while 7/8 (train) is running between Seattle and Havre.

Mark

This is correct, per Amtrak this afternoon.

I was booked on 8 next Monday. I've been re-routed via SAC and the Zephyr, at no extra cost. No word on compensation yet- customer relations was closed.

Every agent I spoke to confirmed the line will be down for at least a month.

 

[Bruce-C]

THE BUILDER DILEMMA: first, I applaud Amtrak for running stub trains Chgo-twin cities and West Coast- Havre. It is good to give the residents of the line some service. Now, about those transcontinental travelers who are displaced; Amtrak needs a plan in place for finding alternatives when a train is cancelled for a long time. It would be good to honor Builder tickets on an alternate route but if not financially possible, Amtrak could still say we can give you a full refund OR you can pay X more on another route where we added capacity.

It is futile to try to detour the whole train on a really long trip with widespread flooding, no servicing facilities, no qualified Amtrak operating crews, and freight congestion. What CAN be done is adding a one coach to each run of the Chief and one sleeper to each run of the Zephyr (or vice versa depending on demand). Increase dining car crew size and supplies to handle the influx. Use service crews that are currently furloughed. Also add a car or two to the Starlight if available. You wouldn't be able to handle the entire Builder load but you wouldn't have to. Just do the best you can and it would be better than the efforts now being made (none). Plan to put these cars in the system for 2 weeks, then reassess. It is a small gesture, but would really reap benefits in goodwill in addition to getting people where they are going instead of them having to abandon rail travel.

Thank you George. This is almost exactly what I meant in my post #36. Somehow alternate passenger routing got to mean re-routing the physical train. I did not mean this.

One additional point to George's post: If Amtrak would get out in front of this and notify all EB ticket holders of the extended delays, many transcon ticket holders coming from the South on the Starlight to connect with the EB would seek alternate means to their destination. This would lighten the passenger load on the #14 Starlight and ease a lot of passenger congestion in Portland.

Also a question. What would you guess is the percentage of the rail travelers, LD or otherwise, regularly read this forum, 10-15% of the travelers?? If that number is even close, what is Amtrak presently doing for the other 85% of the tourists, vacationers and general riders who will be heading cross-country on the EB? hboy:

 

[jb64]

Every agent I spoke to confirmed the line will be down for at least a month.

A Month? :huh: Wow. I am ticketed to board the Empire Builder in Chicago on 7/23 to travel to Glacier. I assumed flooding wouldn't be much of a problem by the end of July. I really feel for those poor folks in ND and Montana.

 

[tnrkitect]

I am booked on train 27 Thursday. They say they are bussing us. What happened to the western stub train???

I believe 27/28 is a bus, while 7/8 (train) is running between Seattle and Havre.

Mark

This is correct, per Amtrak this afternoon.

I was booked on 8 next Monday. I've been re-routed via SAC and the Zephyr, at no extra cost. No word on compensation yet- customer relations was closed.

Every agent I spoke to confirmed the line will be down for at least a month.

Ditto. Amtrak is accommodating those they can headed West via the CZ and CS.However, they are not being proactive about it. You have to ask. If I had waited until they contacted me, there is a good chance the only option left would have been flying .

 

[Ryan]

The Washington Post just published a pretty good article explaining how dire the situation was in and around Minot - while we're focused on rail travel, this is really a very small part of a very BIG problem... Thoughts and prayers definitely going out to all of those impacted...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/post/historic-flood-overtopping-levees-in-minot-north-dakota/2011/06/22/AGM8O0fH_blog.html?wprss=capital-weather-gang