Cross Country Cafe on the City

[had8ley]

A couple of months ago I took 50 (Cardinal) from CHI-NYP. I chose the Cardinal because it's one of the few LD trains that I haven't had the chance to ride yet. I had a great trip, nice sleeping car attendant, and the food was actually pretty good. The biggest problem was the lack of a traiditional "lounge" car. I know it's single-level equipment, but they could have used a full seperate car for a lounge. The "lounge" on this car was 6 booths I believe. 2 of the tables were taken up by conductors and crews. The other 4 tables seemed to have the same passengers at it for 18 hours straight drinking and playing cards.

I believe if push came to shove that the crew would have to find other places to store their grips and supplies. As far as seating goes I never remember a conductor, on any railroad pre-Amtrak, lounging in a diner or lounge car and taking up valuable space. Just a hint for Amtrak management IF we have any.

 

[TVRM610]

A couple of months ago I took 50 (Cardinal) from CHI-NYP. I chose the Cardinal because it's one of the few LD trains that I haven't had the chance to ride yet. I had a great trip, nice sleeping car attendant, and the food was actually pretty good. The biggest problem was the lack of a traiditional "lounge" car. I know it's single-level equipment, but they could have used a full seperate car for a lounge. The "lounge" on this car was 6 booths I believe. 2 of the tables were taken up by conductors and crews. The other 4 tables seemed to have the same passengers at it for 18 hours straight drinking and playing cards.

I believe if push came to shove that the crew would have to find other places to store their grips and supplies. As far as seating goes I never remember a conductor, on any railroad pre-Amtrak, lounging in a diner or lounge car and taking up valuable space. Just a hint for Amtrak management IF we have any.

Hint all you want, I dont think that will EVER change. It's so annoying to see crew take up TWO tables in the lounge. (One would be understandable, they have to have somewhere to sit).

A further problem is that the Diner Lite car was stupidly designed with a conductors office space, which the conductor never uses (to be fair I did see one use it). Sure, in theory that would be great, get the conductor and all his paperwork out of the public view, but since the conductor still takes up a table, now the lounge is down 3 tables, two for the crew, and one for the space that the office now sits.

 

[Larry H.]

Perhaps we have been talking past each other here.. I see some points of agreement. I never was expounding the idea that a localized run, say 4 or maybe 5 hours should have a diner or for that matter even a lounge, but that would surly be nice. I commented on that photo of the Gulf Mobile and Ohio fan tail consist shown on another thread. We used to take it often and up till the very end it ran as a short distance train and carried a Parlor car and full service diner. Some companies were just more thoughtful you might say, or perhaps the traveling public really did expect more in those days. As I recall the Green Diamond of the Illinois Central carried a parlor car and full diner, as did many others. So who moved? It used to be natural for rail service to offer those amenities as part of the trip. Today its Roman Noodles and Microwave Burger at a few card tables.

But back to the topic. My point is still that long distance service where your on board for an extended time should carry cars that make the journey worth the time and cost, as another said of the pullman. I think the Cardinal was mentioned. Here you have a situation where the cost of the bedroom is nearly three times on the Cardinal as the Capitol and yet the more expense charge gets you less service and comfort. I still don't feel that is right! Maybe being from towns that amtrak barely serves makes one jaded, but still object to consist being significantly nicer on one line than another. Were all paying similar fares or as pointed out in some cases more.

 

[Dale]

First I would like to say hello to everyone, as I’m new here, And to think everyone for their input to my letter that was posted here, thanks Allan, as I though it would be a good forum for discussion and maybe some insight. Amtrak itself is a great company to work for and I’m sure they will try to resolve some of these matters. Well again just wanted to drop in and say hello and once again thanks. Dale LaFrance, Amtrak Chef

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Why do we have a national park system, then?

We have an national park system to preserve our natural and historic herritage. The essential work of maintaining the parks is funded by the government partially offset by entrance fees. However, to continue the analagy, food service within the national parks is provided by private firms under contract from the National Park Service. The NPS is paid by the catering firms and those firms make a profit from the operation. The federal government does not subsidize the hot dogs at Yellowstone. And if someone wants a four star restaurant at Yosemite, the NPS will not subsidize that either.

I was more thinking of the lounge car mentioned in the post immediately before my previous one than the food service. Aren't the lounge car and the national parks both forms of the government enabling us to see this nation's scenery? Building hiking trails and parking lots in national parks isn't required for making sure we have X acres of trees preserved for environmental reasons.

 

[AKA]

First they came for the lounge car. I never go to the lounge car so I didnt care. Then they came for the dinning car. I never went to the dinning car so I didnt care. Then one day they came for the train! :unsure:

 

[Neil_M]

While these long distance trains are a main form of transport for a lot of people who live out in the wilds, there are a lot of people like me who simply wouldn't travel if the lounge and diner didn't exist.

3 days and 2 nights with just cafe (or no) food is a non starter.

I am quite happy to acknowledge my travel needs are different and pay accordingly, if its something I really want to do then I am happy to take a bit of a hit on the cost. On my list of things to do is the cross Canada trip, granted its expensive, but if thats what it costs than thats what it costs.

Maybe Amtrak should advertise overseas and try to increase ridership that way, some friends of mine are always on vacation in the USA but were not aware of trains like the CZ and EB till I told them and now they are booking a trip for later in the year.

As for staffing on the trains, surely the diner needs to be staffed accordingly, as its the one thing Amtrak has some direct control over and can mean the difference between a good trip for a passenger or a bad trip and no repeat booking?

The coach attendants are the one thing that seem unnessacery, surely most passengers can board a train and get off without assistance, and if all seats are reserved then why not just issue a seat number when booking? Seems to work for most other railways on the planet.....

Is there any scope for the sleeper or coach attendants to assist at meal times, or does the dead hand of union 'interference' stop that happening?

Surely the train crew and unions can see a joint effort on the train might pay dividends in the long run and try to do the best for the fare paying passenger?

Or is that just too simplistic?

 

[AlanB]

Is there any scope for the sleeper or coach attendants to assist at meal times, or does the dead hand of union 'interference' stop that happening?Surely the train crew and unions can see a joint effort on the train might pay dividends in the long run and try to do the best for the fare paying passenger?

Or is that just too simplistic?

I don't know that the union, or for that matter that all onboard service workers would support such an idea, but I can tell you that there are sleeping car attendants who do believe in trying to do what's best for their passengers. I encountered 3 of them last summer on the CZ, who came into the dining car to help out in the severly understaffed dining car. One SA and one LSA simply doesn't cut it on a sold out train. Sold out in coach, both sleepers, and the 8 rooms in the trans/dorm from Chicago to Sacramento and the same on the return.

 

[Barney]

Funny you should ask, most reports say the national park system is more broken than our national transportation and energy policies, if that is possible. Numbers are actually down in real people each year. Percentage wise, if you look at the population growth, and factor them in, the decrease in people staying away is even worse. Deferred maintenance, poor morale by employees who are expected to do more with less, doesn't it sound familiar?

If you take away the reasons to go someplace or do something, like eliminate the big windows, take away the good food, defer maintenance or improvement, and cut customer service, this is what happens.

Here's another analogy, what about a fire department where the trucks were built 15 years ago, ran 2 million miles, are parked at Beech Grove, there is no water because the hydrants were taken out due to budget cuts, and one fireman has to drive the truck and put out the fire too...well you get the picture.

Why do we have a national park system, then?

 

[Sam Damon]

Let's make one thing clear here: this took a lot of moral courage to post, anywhere. I doff my cap to the CCC chef for having the nerve to get the word out.

The alternative to having dining cars (or not having dining cars) is for trains to stop for meals at designated places. This is the way Greyhound does it. This is the way we did it on passenger trains circa 1870 or so.

It's a serious regression to the 19th century, folks.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I for one think it might be a good idea to contract the "premium" services to another company. Amtrak gets paid fare and haulage cost, and the company charges for the rest of it.

 

[Dakguy201]

Folks, you will see the Pope get married before you see Amtrak believe it has the political support necessary to outsource any significant portion of those services now performed by their employees.

My own view of outsourcing is that it is usually an attempt to transfer management responsibilities away from an organization not capable meeting them, but that is getting pretty far off-topic.

We started this topic with a well reasoned analysis of the shortcomings of a service problem area at Amtrak. It is a pity it has to be done here rather than internally within the organization.

 

[frj1983]

I for one think it might be a good idea to contract the "premium" services to another company. Amtrak gets paid fare and haulage cost, and the company charges for the rest of it.

Some other things occurs to me here:

I doubt if the companies who bid and/or win will be able to find employees willing to spend so much time away from home and on a moving restaurant to boot, with all of the possibilities for regular, late, arrivals home. I think they would have similar problems: low staff moral and quite possibly constant employee turnover. This is NOT like working a regular restaurant! And unless the pay would make up for the shortcomings, who would want to work it???

 

[frj1983]

Folks, you will see the Pope get married before you see Amtrak believe it has the political support necessary to outsource any significant portion of those services now performed by their employees.
My own view of outsourcing is that it is usually an attempt to transfer management responsibilities away from an organization not capable meeting them, but that is getting pretty far off-topic.

We started this topic with a well reasoned analysis of the shortcomings of a service problem area at Amtrak. It is a pity it has to be done here rather than internally within the organization.

I am hoping that Chef has shared his thoughts with Amtrak management, but whether they listen or not, is another question! I'm also hoping there is no administrative punishment for sharing his observations! :angry:

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I doubt if the companies who bid and/or win will be able to find employees willing to spend so much time away from home and on a moving restaurant to boot, with all of the possibilities for regular, late, arrivals home. I think they would have similar problems: low staff moral and quite possibly constant employee turnover. This is NOT like working a regular restaurant! And unless the pay would make up for the shortcomings, who would want to work it???

Amtrak could transfer current employees to the new company, much the way Amtrak got employees from the freights. Where do you think Amtrak gets their people from? There are people who enjoy working the rails, and you can find them and put them in those positions.

 

[harl222000]

I for one think it might be a good idea to contract the "premium" services to another company. Amtrak gets paid fare and haulage cost, and the company charges for the rest of it.

Some other things occurs to me here:

I doubt if the companies who bid and/or win will be able to find employees willing to spend so much time away from home and on a moving restaurant to boot, with all of the possibilities for regular, late, arrivals home. I think they would have similar problems: low staff moral and quite possibly constant employee turnover. This is NOT like working a regular restaurant! And unless the pay would make up for the shortcomings, who would want to work it???

They tried to contract out the 'premium services' to Subway in New York, they did subcontract out catering to Gate Gourmet, would love to see the accounting on that one. But hey, they eliminated that union!

To work on board you need to have a "passion for the rails", People who think they would "enjoy" it

don't last long.

The pay: work up to 18 hours a day, over time after 180 hours a month, 4 hours extra for working holidays, {clerks, mechanic, conductors get up to double time and a half},no sick days, 1 day personal day after 7 years, then your family gets to sit around and watch Trent Lott and Richard Baker lie about how much you earn [yeah, you youcan earn 90k ayear, if you work 18 hrs a day for 300 days a year} and how much you steal on CNN, while you miss your sons first baseball game and your daughters first recital.

And presently we are the only employees that pay our own benefits.

Don't get me wrong, I love my job, but please, the Plantation Daze were over! now the CCC has brought 'em back.

As far as the crew congregating in the diner, I hate that, but it wasn't 40 years ago we had to sleep in the diner. With the removal of the crew quarters on the Crescent [ the OBS crew are now assigned revenue rooms] and other trains, where can Conductors go to tally Amtraks's money? The coaches?

Our motto was " People serving people". Don't make it " People subserviant to people"

I'm to old to tap dance anymore.

It's a mess, thank you Congress!

Chef Allan Thomas

 

[frj1983]

I doubt if the companies who bid and/or win will be able to find employees willing to spend so much time away from home and on a moving restaurant to boot, with all of the possibilities for regular, late, arrivals home. I think they would have similar problems: low staff moral and quite possibly constant employee turnover. This is NOT like working a regular restaurant! And unless the pay would make up for the shortcomings, who would want to work it???

Amtrak could transfer current employees to the new company, much the way Amtrak got employees from the freights. Where do you think Amtrak gets their people from? There are people who enjoy working the rails, and you can find them and put them in those positions.

Yes Green Maned Lion,

But when they transfered over, they got the same pay, insurance, seniority, etc. Freight people are not going to come running to work in Amtrak's Dining/Lounge Car when they can get better pay staying where they are!

And do you honestly think that any of Amtrak employees would transfer to a new company with lower pay (that would be a given...the whole point of contracting it out for lower cost) and lose their pensions, insurance, etc. at the same time? I sincerely doubt it!

 

[Amtrak OBS Employee gone f]

I doubt if the companies who bid and/or win will be able to find employees willing to spend so much time away from home and on a moving restaurant to boot, with all of the possibilities for regular, late, arrivals home. I think they would have similar problems: low staff moral and quite possibly constant employee turnover. This is NOT like working a regular restaurant! And unless the pay would make up for the shortcomings, who would want to work it???

Amtrak could transfer current employees to the new company, much the way Amtrak got employees from the freights. Where do you think Amtrak gets their people from? There are people who enjoy working the rails, and you can find them and put them in those positions.

So Amtrak could transfer current employee to the new company.... but would they actually go to it?

Lion, I am having huge trouble understanding you next question. "Where does Amtrak get their people from?" Where do you think they get their employees from, buddy? They conduct hiring sessions, testing, job interviews, and then selection and training periods. If you reply to this to the fact you were actually stating how Amtrak aquired some of their "old time" employees, I'll give you that! And even back then, many folks had to hire out on their own for the newly created Amtrak! Others were able to find jobs in the freight sector, and stay with their respective comany they were with at the time. Others lost their jobs all together. Are you willing to put the time, effort, comittment, and travel involved to obtain an OBS or T&E job at Amtrak?

That aside, I enjoyed my job at Amtrak as an OBS employee for the most part. The main reason I left it was to cross over to freight, and make far better money! And I do not regret my decision. That's not to say I would never take on employment at Amtrak again if an unbelievable opportunity arose, but it would not be in OBS again. And while there are many folks like myself who enjoy working the rails, we have to be paid accordingly. I can tell you just about all of Amtrak OBS department nationwide would walk away if they were cut back to wages of $8 to $10 per hour!

OBS gone freight...

 

[Amtrak OBS Employee gone f]

I doubt if the companies who bid and/or win will be able to find employees willing to spend so much time away from home and on a moving restaurant to boot, with all of the possibilities for regular, late, arrivals home. I think they would have similar problems: low staff moral and quite possibly constant employee turnover. This is NOT like working a regular restaurant! And unless the pay would make up for the shortcomings, who would want to work it???

Amtrak could transfer current employees to the new company, much the way Amtrak got employees from the freights. Where do you think Amtrak gets their people from? There are people who enjoy working the rails, and you can find them and put them in those positions.

Yes Green Maned Lion,

And do you honestly think that any of Amtrak employees would transfer to a new company with lower pay (that would be a given...the whole point of contracting it out for lower cost) and lose their pensions, insurance, etc. at the same time? I sincerely doubt it!

Well remember frj1983, it is always easier for folks who may be on the outside to see in, and draw a conclusion. When in fact the railroad industry is one that is like none other! Things get complicated very easy at the railroad, even simple internal issues at times. But mindful of that when it comes right down to it, employment in general is merely an act of business! I am providing my service to a freight railroad at this time in hopes of financial return as a part of the agreement between them and me! If the railroad or I feel at some point that the situation is no longer working out, we attempt to resolve the issue at hand or we both move on accordingly! That is true with any worker in any business! One may enjoy their job, and money may not be the main reason they took the job. But how many people are going to come to work for free? Not many for sure...

OBS gone freight....

 

[Amtrak OBS Employee gone f]

I for one think it might be a good idea to contract the "premium" services to another company. Amtrak gets paid fare and haulage cost, and the company charges for the rest of it.

Some other things occurs to me here:

I doubt if the companies who bid and/or win will be able to find employees willing to spend so much time away from home and on a moving restaurant to boot, with all of the possibilities for regular, late, arrivals home. I think they would have similar problems: low staff moral and quite possibly constant employee turnover. This is NOT like working a regular restaurant! And unless the pay would make up for the shortcomings, who would want to work it???

They tried to contract out the 'premium services' to Subway in New York, they did subcontract out catering to Gate Gourmet, would love to see the accounting on that one. But hey, they eliminated that union!

To work on board you need to have a "passion for the rails", People who think they would "enjoy" it

don't last long.

The pay: work up to 18 hours a day, over time after 180 hours a month, 4 hours extra for working holidays, {clerks, mechanic, conductors get up to double time and a half},no sick days, 1 day personal day after 7 years, then your family gets to sit around and watch Trent Lott and Richard Baker lie about how much you earn [yeah, you youcan earn 90k ayear, if you work 18 hrs a day for 300 days a year} and how much you steal on CNN, while you miss your sons first baseball game and your daughters first recital.

And presently we are the only employees that pay our own benefits.

Don't get me wrong, I love my job, but please, the Plantation Daze were over! now the CCC has brought 'em back.

As far as the crew congregating in the diner, I hate that, but it wasn't 40 years ago we had to sleep in the diner. With the removal of the crew quarters on the Crescent [ the OBS crew are now assigned revenue rooms] and other trains, where can Conductors go to tally Amtraks's money? The coaches?

Our motto was " People serving people". Don't make it " People subserviant to people"

I'm to old to tap dance anymore.

It's a mess, thank you Congress!

Chef Allan Thomas

Mr Thomas, the main thing we really should remember here is Amtrak has NEVER been managed properly with the exception of a few instances. It was set up to fail to begin with! But because it was set up as a for profit business, recieves some money as well enjoys some options not available to the other carriers, it has managed to limp along. And even though you are dead right on the fact that Congress has "shortchanged" Amtrak over the years. But this company is not run by many managers who have spent time in the ranks of where we have been and are. Yes, there are a few, but the end results show otherwise IMO! So funding is only a part of the problem. I personally feel there has been much waste with the capital over the last fews years, almost to the point of shutting the company down a couple of years ago.

OBS gone freight....

 

[Green Maned Lion]

At no time did I suggest or imply that the new carrier would pay lower wages, nor would they offer less benefit. Never stated it, never implied, can't imagine drawing the inference of it. Amtrak loses money partly because they are stuck with very limited funding. You give me 30 billion dollars, and operating funds of 2 billion dollars for ten years, and the helm of Amtrak, and when I'm done, Amtrak will run for a profit. Doing so wouldn't even be all that difficult.

Amtrak is stuck with underfunding, and underfunding leads to extra cost. For example, Amtrak defers many maintenance tasks. I defer maintenance on a bridge, fail to scrape and paint the rusty spots, and in time the bridge will fail, and I need a new bridge. New bridge costs more than periodic scraping and painting. I fail to fix small issues with the truck of a car, the small issues put stress on the whole truck and eventually it fails. Secondly, they need more money than they get. That means loans. Loans, due to interest, increase costs. Were Amtrak properly funded from the start, a lot of their costs would actually go down.

Amtrak's premium services, likewise, can be run for a profit. If the owner of the Sleepers, Diners, and lounges could manage to pay for proper maintenance, they could probably make money. Amtrak is given mandates to, for example, reduce costs of dining services. So they switch to SDS to make it look like they are complying, even though the savings are almost nil. A private company isn't trying to make it look like they are saving money, they are trying to make a profit. And that profit can be made without cutting benefits or salaries.

OBS: I was saying, Amtrak gets its people from those who enjoy, or have a passion for (take your pick) working on the rails. They existed in the past, they exist now, they will exist in the future. I would LOVE to work OBS or T&E, and would do so if I didn't have a family.