Crescent to Texas via Meridian Speedway?

[Anderson]

On the presumption that the Viewliner II order ever arrives (sigh), I think you'd probably be looking at two sleepers, the diner, two or three coaches, and the baggage car going to Dallas/Fort Worth and a sleeper, a bag-dorm, the cafe, and two or three coaches going to New Orleans. In particular, I think Texas is going to become your "backup transfer point" the next time Chicago goes to hell in a handbasket, especially if we ever get a Daily Sunset (since my best guess is that Amtrak would work to time a workable connection at DFW).

Of course, while I agree that a single sleeper is too little for this route, I also find the presence of only three sleepers on the Meteor to also be inadequate. Ditto three on the LSL and only two on the Crescent (I mean, c'mon...this is a train that required two sections at the holidays well into the 1970s and probably has one of the best "business timings" in the system for WAS-ATL). If nothing else, the fact that Amtrak seems to have gotten stuck calibrating sleeper capacity to about the 25th percentile in terms of demand (to ensure that equipment gets utilized and due to eternal funding shortages) is...shall we say, regrettable from many perspectives.

 

[jis]

Mostly it was the other way round AFAIR. They originally happened to get more food service cars than were eventually needed, as the service and usage patterns changed. See Warner's book "Amtrak by the Numbers"

 

[Carolina Special]

"Amtrak by the Numbers" starts at $69.95 plus $3.99 shipping at Amazon. No Kindle option. Yikes!

 

[jis]

"Amtrak by the Numbers" starts at $69.95 plus $3.99 shipping at Amazon. No Kindle option. Yikes!

Comprehensive and accurate collection of facts costs. You get what you pay for.
Incidentally Warner is also one of the driving force behind the OTOL Forum which hosts the Amtrak Roster web page.

 

[Carolina Special]

Perhaps, but I prefer to pay a bit less. Last week I bought a book on Amazon on "The Air War over Europe 1939-1945" translated from original German that I'm ploughing through. Hardcover price was $66.47, Kindle $15.95. Guess which version I got?

IMHO there really should be a Kindle version of everything these days. I rarely buy hardbacks or paperbacks anymore.

 

[jis]

Well. I guess you won't get this book, and that's OK. It is the author's choice how they wish to publish and what they wish to charge And of course it is the buyers choice what they wish to spend. That is how the market is supposed to work.

 

[Carolina Special]

Yep, I agree.

 

[neroden]

FWIW much of the information in Amtrak By The Numbers is on the Amtrak Roster on OTOL, so if you just want a quick glance at the cafe-to-coach conversions, that's online.

 

[jis]

Yeah. The only thing missing is the detailed history of each car through all the renumberings a refurbs.

 

[Anthony V]

This is a great route.

KCS currently doesn't really host Amtrak, so I do wonder how much work it will be to get agreement, but since it's a joint NS-KCS venture that might not be a problem.

UP is OK with it by all accounts. It could run on KCS all the way to the east side of the Metroplex, but that is a slow and twisty route. Or it could switch to UP from Shreveport to Dallas; I think the inclination will be to do the latter (fewer new stations, faster route) but you never know. CN (host for Jackson MS) might be uncooperative.

Shreveport seems to be really seriously actively trying to get rail service whether from west or from east, so maybe it'll happen...

Lot of new stations would need to be built,though. Even on the simpler UP route, new stations would be needed at Shreveport, Monroe, and Vicksburg, at a minimum. I don't even know where you'd put a station in Vicksburg; I don't see a good location.

The passenger potential here is large. The main thing to think about here is that Dallas-Fort Worth would "anchor" the route from the west end; people would take the train from Dallas as far as New York. I believe it would be faster than the LSL-Texas Eagle combo (leave NY at 3:40 PM on day 1, arrive at 11:30 AM on day 3).

If we assume the train can travel as fast as driving (it can't), it would leave NY at 2:15 on day 1, arrive Meridian at 2:58 PM on day 2, arrive Dallas at... um... 1:10 AM on day 3. Probably a bit slower than that, so maybe arrive early morning into Dallas.

The catch here is... as always these days... *equipment*. The Crescent arrives NOLA at 7:32 PM and leaves at 7 AM the next morning. This branch would arrive Dallas at 5 AM the next morning, most likely. If it was as fast as driving it would have to leave at 1 AM or so to get back to Meridian by 11 AM. With more plausible (but still fast) schedules, it might be leaving at 11 PM. Anyway, this means it needs *one more trainset* than the current Crescent, five instead of four.

As such I find it highly implausible that it'll happen quickly; it'll require purchasing more sleepers and coaches and locomotives.

The Crescent has long had a problem with the train being underutilized south of Atlanta and there have been many proposals to cut off the extra cars there. Instead, a better idea would be to use that extra equipment for the proposed DFW section of the Crescent (Crescent Star). This would likely increase the rolling stock's usage considerably south of Atlanta (because it would be running to another big market) while allowing it to keep generating revenue and at least partially solving the equipment barrier to starting this new service. When the new Viewliners are finally delivered, that will bring the needed diners, sleepers and baggage cars to fill the rest of the void of equipment needed to start this service.

 

[west point]

Splitting the Crescent at Meridian would be very easy compared to Atlanta. Extra sidings and ability to add more sidings at MEI station.

 

[ainamkartma]

Here's a slightly different idea:
Instead of splitting the Crescent at Meridian to create the Crescent Star, instead split the Palmetto somewhere between WAS and Selma-Smithfield, NC to create the Palm Star! This would have a schedule that looks something like:

SB Palm Star NB Palm Star

NY 5:45 23:50

WAS 10:00 19:35

RAL 15:00 14:15

CLT 18:50 10:45

ATL 0:50 4:45

MRD 5:35 0:00

DFW 17:35 12:00:00

It would have the following features:

1) Not add a train to the NEC, since it would be a lengthening of the Palmetto (which typically has six to seven cars, as I understand it, and thus underutilizes the NEC infrasctructure)

2) Daytime running between ATL and NY, admittedly with less than perfect timing in ATL

3) Good connections from the SB Star Palm to the NB Texas Eagle and vice versa, at the cost of an overnight connection to the SB TE and vice versa.

4) Adds a fourth very well timed frequency to the Piedmont route in both directions

5) Uses five train sets, if I am counting correctly, which would be something like:

sleeper, sleeper, diner, cafe, coach, coach, coach, baggage for a total of 15 cars north of the split and eight south of it.

What do you think?

Ainamkartma

ps Or _in addition to_ splitting the Crescent...

 

[Anthony V]

Splitting the Crescent at Meridian would be very easy compared to Atlanta. Extra sidings and ability to add more sidings at MEI station.

It would still split at Meridian. It's just that the extra capacity south of Atlanta would go to Ft. Worth instead of being cut off at Atlanta, which also alleviates the equipment shortage barrier to starting this route.

 

[neroden]

If it could be done with 4 consists instead of 5 I'd say there would be no equipment problem. As it is they have to scrounge up an extra consist to go to Fort Worth.

 

[A Voice]

If it could be done with 4 consists instead of 5 I'd say there would be no equipment problem. As it is they have to scrounge up an extra consist to go to Fort Worth.

Not a complete consist though, just the cars split into the Texas section (presumably lounge, sleeper, and a couple coaches). The remainder of the train can continue with the existing four sets. Seems possible, even with Amtrak's perennial equipment constraints.

 

[jis]

That is exactly the point I made further back in the thread, and I was poo-poohed away by a certain someone .

 

[WoodyinNYC]

It will require 5 consists of the Fort Worth section and 4 for the New Orleans section. If they simply split the current train into two, then the Fort Worth Section would probably consist of one Viewliner Sleeper, one Amfleet II Cafe, two Amfleet II Coaches, and possibly a Bag Dorm.

So net net [the Ft Worth extension] will require one additional Viewliner Sleeper, one Amfleet II Cafe, two Amfleet II Coaches, and 5 Bag Dorms, which is within the realm of possibilities even without ordering additional equipment.

Amtrak needs to order more equipment while it can. The full 70-car Viewliner II option order is surely beyond reach, but another 10 or 12 sleepers and 10 or 12 bag dorms would at least barely cover a small number of new or revived routes or extensions.

At the current rate of production, those 24 cars could keep CAF's production line in Elmira open for another two years. LOL. Then before that time runs out, order 10 to 20 more Sleepers and about as many bag dorms or full baggage cars. Another 50 cars @ $2.5 million, nah, let's say $3 million each, will cost about $300 million.

If the crazies in Congress block that puny $300 million investment, try to order the shells only for 50 more Viewliner IIs. Then slip in an order for enuff trucks for those 50 cars. The next year's budget could cover the modules for the sleepers and bag dorms.

The process would drag on awhile, but otherwise we squander the last best chance to properly equip this future ATL-Ft Worth extension, a Broadway Ltd revival, or a Cardinal splitting in Cincinnati or Indianapolis to reconnect to St Louis and Kansas City.

Amtrak could be much better with another 50 Viewliner IIs.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

NARP is on it! And the Governor of Louisiana is too!

The NARP item is based on a story on myarklamiss.com, linked here.

http://www.myarklamiss.com/news/local-news/north-louisiana-one-step-closer-to-having-a-passenger-railway/699820604

The link to the NARP Hotline is here

https://www.narprail.org/news/hotline/hotline-1-013-narp-concludes-annual-advocacy-summit-amtrak-announces-bold-initiatives-for-penn-station-california-hsr-sees/

Northern Louisiana is one step closer to getting Amtrak passenger rail, as Louisiana Governor John Bel Edwards has come out in favor of restoring the service to Northern Louisiana ... negotiations are underway with Amtrak and ... freight railways. ...

"All of our cities ... air service is an issue, bus service is an issue. It's hard to get anywhere. ..." Southern Rail Commissioner Knox Ross said.

Ross says a test run could come as early as next fall ...

Belated edit, trimmed from NARP Hot Line.

 

[neroden]

If it could be done with 4 consists instead of 5 I'd say there would be no equipment problem. As it is they have to scrounge up an extra consist to go to Fort Worth.

Not a complete consist though, just the cars split into the Texas section (presumably lounge, sleeper, and a couple coaches). The remainder of the train can continue with the existing four sets. Seems possible, even with Amtrak's perennial equipment constraints.

Really? Amtrak says it doesn't have enough coaches and sleepers to run the through cars from the Pennsylvanian to the Capitol Limited, which IIRC required around the same number.

Doesn't seem possible unless the cars are stolen from someone else. Need to order more cars.

 

[west point]

Really?

Amtrak says it doesn't have enough coaches and sleepers to run the through cars from the Pennsylvanian to the Capitol Limited, which IIRC required around the same number.

Doesn't seem possible unless the cars are stolen from someone else. Need to order more cars.

That is the point many of our posters have been trying to make ! For the minimum of just our present LD single level trains at least 18 coaches and sleepers are needed to add just one of each to a LD train. Now proper marketing would then be required to fill out these trains additionally 36 sleepers and 72 coaches. More single level service for Palmetto and its extension back to MIA, Texas Crescent, Capital limited replacement with single level, Pennsylvanian & thru extension to CHI, needed cars for Empire service, Vermonter, Downeaster, Adirondack, fill out Regional trains, VA DOT expansions, 65/66 sleeper(s).

All in all we can anticipate at least 50 additional sleepers and just a WAG 500 additional coaches Then more Chargers ( 50 - 100 ? ). We believe that all this new route dreaming is useless unless we can get additional rolling stock onto Amtrak trains. The additional sleepers and a fraction of additional coaches will allow a broader use base of diners on the LD trains with the ability to get food to a break even point.

This post does not even consider the needs of Bilevel cars

 

[A Voice]

If it could be done with 4 consists instead of 5 I'd say there would be no equipment problem. As it is they have to scrounge up an extra consist to go to Fort Worth.

Not a complete consist though, just the cars split into the Texas section (presumably lounge, sleeper, and a couple coaches). The remainder of the train can continue with the existing four sets. Seems possible, even with Amtrak's perennial equipment constraints.

Really? Amtrak says it doesn't have enough coaches and sleepers to run the through cars from the Pennsylvanian to the Capitol Limited, which IIRC required around the same number.

Doesn't seem possible unless the cars are stolen from someone else. Need to order more cars.

More cars are slated to be released back into service this year from wreck repair and cafe/lounge conversions than the number required by the Crescent Star and Pennsylvanian through-cars combined. Granted, those cars are also needed elsewhere and for other purposes, but the argument that the train can't happen because Amtrak can't find a grand total of four cars just doesn't hold water.

Now, if only Amtrak were expecting some additional sleepers this year.....

 

[jis]

If it could be done with 4 consists instead of 5 I'd say there would be no equipment problem. As it is they have to scrounge up an extra consist to go to Fort Worth.

Not a complete consist though, just the cars split into the Texas section (presumably lounge, sleeper, and a couple coaches). The remainder of the train can continue with the existing four sets. Seems possible, even with Amtrak's perennial equipment constraints.

Really? Amtrak says it doesn't have enough coaches and sleepers to run the through cars from the Pennsylvanian to the Capitol Limited, which IIRC required around the same number.
Doesn't seem possible unless the cars are stolen from someone else. Need to order more cars.

Frankly I do not recall Amtrak ever saying we don't have two Amfleet coaches available, which is all that is needed to start through Coaches. Did you just make that up? There should also be no major problem finding a Cafe car since there are a few surplus floating around.

I can understand the Sleeper issue, but a vast majority of those that transfer at PGH are Coach passengers who would be served well with just two through Coaches.

Amtrak basically dropped the PIPs on the floor because Boardman really did not want to do anything about improving LD service. Congress forced the PIPs on Amtrak and he behaved like a good bureaucrat and fired everyone involved and buried the entire thing. It had nothing to do with equipment.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

(Actually, Neroden said this, but I often fall into quoting hell. )

Amtrak says it doesn't have enough coaches and sleepers to run the through cars from the Pennsylvanian to the Capitol Limited, which IIRC required around the same number.

Doesn't seem possible unless the cars are stolen from someone else. Need to order more cars.

That is the point many of our posters have been trying to make ! For the minimum of just our present LD single level trains at least 18 coaches and sleepers are needed to add just one of each to a LD train. Now proper marketing would then be required to fill out these trains additionally 36 sleepers and 72 coaches. More single level service for Palmetto and its extension back to MIA, Texas Crescent, Capital Limited replacement with single level, Pennsylvanian & thru extension to CHI, needed cars for Empire service, Vermonter, Downeaster, Adirondack, fill out Regional trains, VA DOT expansions, 65/66 sleeper(s), [ plus a daily Cardinal, adds Woody]
All in all we can anticipate at least 50 additional sleepers and just a WAG 500 additional coaches Then more Chargers ( 50 - 100 ? ). We believe that all this new route dreaming is useless unless we can get additional rolling stock onto Amtrak trains. The additional sleepers and a fraction of additional coaches will allow a broader use base of diners on the LD trains with the ability to get food to a break even point. ...

The most needed next order would be the smallest: more Viewliner II sleepers from CAF, as well as at least another 10 or 12 baggage cars. OK, no more diners until we see how the first 25 work out with another sleeper added to every consist. If Amtrak decides that diners are not the way to go, then perhaps another kind of food service car. Maybe order more spare baggage cars as the tail end of the "option" order, cars which can be converted in a modular way to more sleepers, or with more work, to more diners.

The CAF order was about $300 million for the cars, then extra for parts, some maintenance, or sumpin later brought the total up near $350 million. Roughly $2.5 million per car, better figure $3 million because CAF says it has already lost more than $40 million. (So we can't count on any more bargain bids from them!)

I'd like to think that CAF has learned $40 million worth of lessons in building Viewliners. Don't like to think of paying another company to make all the mistakes all over again. Much better to buy more Viewliners while CAF's production line is open, the set-up costs and worker training costs have been amortized, and before the now-trained labor force is dispersed.

So $3 million each for 50 more Viewliners, mostly sleepers, a mere $150 million. Or $3 million each for 70 more cars -- 200 was the number in the original order cut back to 130 cars with an option for 70 more. So 70 more Viewliners at $3 million apiece would come to $210 million. It would be doable in normal times.

Then the blockbuster multi-Billion order for hundreds of single-level cars, to replace the current Amfleets and expand the fleet to allow a handful of extensions of service.

And this post also does not even consider the needs of bi-level cars.

 

[neroden]

More cars are slated to be released back into service this year from wreck repair and cafe/lounge conversions than the number required by the Crescent Star and Pennsylvanian through-cars combined.

Good to know there are still more wreck-repair and cafe-lounge conversions left to do. I thought they ran out of those several years ago.

 

[neroden]

Amtrak basically dropped the PIPs on the floor because Boardman really did not want to do anything about improving LD service. Congress forced the PIPs on Amtrak and he behaved like a good bureaucrat and fired everyone involved and buried the entire thing. It had nothing to do with equipment.

OK, this is a direct slander of Boardman, and perhaps a sharper attack than you realize. You're saying he wanted to *lose money and reduce ridership* by not implementing fairly simple stuff which would *improve the bottom line and increase ridership*. That honestly does not sound like Boardman at *all*. If it got stopped by the bureaucracy, I would guess it got stopped by someone other than Boardman.
Someone who needs to be identified and removed.

I think NARP needs to push the Pennsylvanian/Capitol Limited through cars and the daily Cardinal pretty hard. They're being ignored by Amtrak for no readily explicable reason, and at the very least Amtrak should be forced to give reasons; sufficient political pressure can force that.