Having better operations has nothing to do with stations. You seem to justify business as usual for Amtrak. Run to congress for more moneyto get by until next year. What happens to Amtrak when congress says no. Amtrak needs more funding options. Just running trains won't cut it.
Could a train station make a profit for Amtrak? I think so
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Amtrak OBS Gone Freight
OBS Chief
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Having better operations most certainly does have something to do with stations!!! Did it ever occur to you that if the damned train didn't run, that you have NO need for a station?
I am not disagreeing with you in respect to your points. In fact stations are just about the most important place in the passenger railway system!! It is the first place the passenger sees prior to boarding (or prior to buying the ticket), and it is the very last place the passenger sees upon their departure from the train. So yes, it should be something that may stand out to the passenger as well as be as user friendly as possible! But Amtrak should NOT BE expected to have to put all the investments into stations to the magnitude you specify!! That is my disagreement with you! This has nothing to do with stations or business as usual! It is about priorities! What airport have you seen that one particular airline company built up on its own without outside help? The last time I checked, Delta or U.S. Airways didn't build Orlando International Airport (MCO) into what it is today. Yes, they contribute a portion of the capital in the form of landing fees and facilty fees, but the rest is taken care of by the private sector and government subsidy! If Amtrak was funded properly, then Amtrak could step in and do something similar thus possibly allowed to follow through with a little of what you specify.
But the "just running trains won't cut it" statement, that makes no sense at all!
No train = no need for stations at all!
No increase of train frequency = less need to do anything to/for or no need for a station at all!
And Amtrak already has enough non-staffed and open platform style stations now as it is!!!
OBS gone freight...
Then Amtrak can expect more of this
http://www.trainweb.org/usarail/sanderson.htm
more of that means fewer riders. Few riders mean more fight in the anti-Amtrak members in congress.
Local communities are not stepping up.
http://www.trainweb.org/usarail/sanderson.htm
more of that means fewer riders. Few riders mean more fight in the anti-Amtrak members in congress.
Local communities are not stepping up.
Which is why Amtrak is doing things like this. Seminars like the one in that press release are paying dividends by getting local officials and in some cases private groups to start fixing things up, telling them how they can qualify for federal funding and other funding opportunties. Is the program moving fast enough? Probably not. But Amtrak doesn't exactly have the funding to put on dozens of those seminars, and there is a limited amount of grants & loans available.
However, progress is being made even if it is slowly. And doing it this way avoids all of the concerns and pitfalls that have been pointed out in this topic.
It should also be noted though, that even though there are stations like the one you've pointed out and perhaps ridership from those stations is down, overall ridership on Amtrak continues to increase despite those eyesore stations.
It would be nice for us to go to a time machine into the early 20th century and enjoy the experience with Harvey House(s). He's a very brilliant guy. Las Vegas, NM has a Harvey House, but it been closed for years.
S
Spokker
Guest
I read that this is how they do things in Japan. Much of JR's revenue comes from operating businesses in stations and even on station platforms.
I guess we will have to wait and see if this is real or a pep rally.
I believe strongly if Amtrak owned and operated 10 stations as business on the EB route, This would increase riders by huge percent
plus revenue from the stations making the EB profitable.
RTOlson
Lead Service Attendant
Stations are important, but I don't think having Amtrak buy and renovate/expand stations is the solution. I believe Amtrak's efforts to promote revitalization are gaining dividends.
I like Amtrak's Great American Stations to promote station revitalization along its many routes. There are resources and information for local governments and interest groups to use in their efforts.
BTW, Amtrak does agree with OP in one sense -- a revitalized train station can be an economic opportunity.
I like Amtrak's Great American Stations to promote station revitalization along its many routes. There are resources and information for local governments and interest groups to use in their efforts.
BTW, Amtrak does agree with OP in one sense -- a revitalized train station can be an economic opportunity.
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RailFanLNK
Conductor
One thing Amtrak could do is put rail advocacy groups out at thier stations where there is a large amount of folks passing by. Here in LNK we have a Farmers Market every Saturday from May-October. I was at Pro Rail Nebraska in Feburary and asked, "why don't we sit in front of the station with brouchure's etc and educate folks in LNK" that we have:
1. Two daily trains on one of the more glamorous routes.
2. The cost benefit of riding Amtrak.
3. The fun of riding the rails compared to flying or driving.
4. The Green affect of Amtrak.
5. The battle Amtrak has for funding year after year after year.
The members of Pro Rail did this to an extent on National Train Day. I was asked to participate but was on a train on NTD. Our station sits smack dab in the middle of 5,000 people for 20 Saturdays a year. Amtrak (I think) left the station open so folks could see our lil' (but clean) and well operated station. The NTD it was pouring rain so this was not a real successful event but could be and I have volunteered to do it as much as possible "if" they choose to do it and "if" Amtrak would ok it on a weekly basis. Our station is opened from 11pm-6:30am, so alot of people don't even know it exists.
Al
1. Two daily trains on one of the more glamorous routes.
2. The cost benefit of riding Amtrak.
3. The fun of riding the rails compared to flying or driving.
4. The Green affect of Amtrak.
5. The battle Amtrak has for funding year after year after year.
The members of Pro Rail did this to an extent on National Train Day. I was asked to participate but was on a train on NTD. Our station sits smack dab in the middle of 5,000 people for 20 Saturdays a year. Amtrak (I think) left the station open so folks could see our lil' (but clean) and well operated station. The NTD it was pouring rain so this was not a real successful event but could be and I have volunteered to do it as much as possible "if" they choose to do it and "if" Amtrak would ok it on a weekly basis. Our station is opened from 11pm-6:30am, so alot of people don't even know it exists.
Al
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How about contracting with a modular home builder, to build modular stations?
Design it to look like the stereotypical 1900 small town station. They just need an inside waiting area, a ticket booth, and a set of restrooms. Outside, just a covered porch on the track side.
If one designs it correctly, the section of the modular would fit on a rail flat car, and could be drop delivered to the site.
Design it to look like the stereotypical 1900 small town station. They just need an inside waiting area, a ticket booth, and a set of restrooms. Outside, just a covered porch on the track side.
If one designs it correctly, the section of the modular would fit on a rail flat car, and could be drop delivered to the site.
haolerider
Conductor
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All of this is interesting commentary, but as mentioned before, the reality is that all amtrak can do is suggest to the local authorities that own the stations/property that they upgrade the facilities.How about contracting with a modular home builder, to build modular stations?
Design it to look like the stereotypical 1900 small town station. They just need an inside waiting area, a ticket booth, and a set of restrooms. Outside, just a covered porch on the track side.
If one designs it correctly, the section of the modular would fit on a rail flat car, and could be drop delivered to the site.
Probably the best example of governments working diligently to upgrade stations is in North Carolina. They have been extremely aggresive in renovating their stations - even those that don't currently have train service. They are also very aggressive in adding routes, in fact just yesterday, they announced an additional frequency for the Raleigh to Charolotte route - to be implemented in 6-12 months. They also have two programs that provide volunteers - in the stations and on board - to assist with passenger questions and issues. They don't sell tickets, but do provide information.
ThayerATM
OBS Chief
This plan could work, although it would take a developer with the skills of a "Donald Trump" to pull it off.
I can imagine driving to the Amtrak station in my own car, parking the car in a secure lot (pay for parking like the airports), then PAYING the redcaps to check my *through* luggage at the station. I can imagine browsing some botiques. I'd probably spend some money on an Amtrak hat, or T-shirt.
I can also imagine, after a leisurely dinner with lots of space around me to put my "carry-on" lappie and bag, getting on the train for a 12 hour trip on the first leg of a two week journey.
If we can "imagine" it, it can be done. It becomes a matter of "HOW."
haolerider
Conductor
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You are going to have to "imagine" the customers for these shops and restaurants, because if you assume the small town of 30k, it is probably going to only have one train a day in each direction and unless these shops and restaurants have someone else to draw to their establishments, the small number of train passengers are not going to provide enough revenue to support the ventures.
A developer like Donald Trump would laugh you out of the office and "fire" you immediately if you came to him with a proposal like this. If this is such a good idea, I wonder why no one in these small towns has decided to develop such a venture. It certainly can't be an original idea, so I would suggest it has been looked at and rejected soundly.
If members of this forum think this is a good idea, I would ask that you do a bit of research and find 6-7 of these small towns and see where the stations are located and see if there are any such ventures already in place - and do an analysis of the existing passengers counts and train frequency.
ThayerATM
OBS Chief
Oh--- just don't be such a nay-sayer.
They laughed at Wilbur and Orville Wight; nobody ever dreaming that the US would land a man on the moon. Quit being such a pessimist. And don't dare call it being a "realist." Realism is for yesterday. Today is the first day of the future.
We can have an Amtrak system all over the US, with new equipment, covering as many cities as American Airlines --- maybe more. We've just got to quit crying, look at the economic realities, find the developers, and do some hard work.
haolerider
Conductor
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OK, go for it! Lead the charge into the future, but be prepared for some hard knocks along the way.Oh--- just don't be such a nay-sayer.
Quit being such a pessimist. And don't dare call it being a "realist." Realism is for yesterday. Today is the first day of the future.
We can have an Amtrak system all over the US, with new equipment, covering as many cities as American Airlines --- maybe more. We've just got to quit crying, look at the economic realities, find the developers, and do some hard work.
If you're under 30, you'll be seeing and using a lot of those stations before you retire.
Once the airlines close down, and gas hits $15 a gallon, people will insist that what we had
100 years ago could, and should be brought back.
T
Tony
Guest
I think the idea of a "turn key" solution is an interesting one. And who would be better as the champion for it, other than Amtrak?
Refurbing an old train station is full of potential problems. All I can think of, is a train station version of "Money Pit". That could trouble small towns, and cause them to retreat from taking on such a project.
If Amtrak could, for example, say "Just order train station #TS-321MO, we'll drop ship it for a predictable $285,000".
ThayerATM
OBS Chief
Irv,
I'm 68 years old, and I know that I'll never live long enough to see all those stations. I just get tired of listening to all those people nay-saying, and complaining, who give all "their" reasons for not getting into the foray and doing something about it.
Amtrak's time has come. I've gotten on board, both politiking and riding.
As a footnote to haolerider --- At age 68, I've taken my share of hard knocks.
h34r: A few more aren't going to hurt me. 
The Paso Robles (CA) Amtrak station has some shops in the old station building (adjacent to the new station building/waiting area). It's not a lot, but there were maybe three or four shops--the one I noticed was a hair salon. There may have been a cafe, too.
Not exactly what you're talking about, but a good start. I'll say the parking lot was full and it was hard for my brother to find a spot to park so he could see me off, even though there was only one other person boarding the southbound Starlight that day!
Plus, it's only about a quarter-mile walk north on Pine Street to downtown Paso, where there are lots of shops. (Unfortunately, there are lumber yards along Pine Street between the station and the downtown area, which may discourage people from walking towards the train station when downtown.)
Not exactly what you're talking about, but a good start. I'll say the parking lot was full and it was hard for my brother to find a spot to park so he could see me off, even though there was only one other person boarding the southbound Starlight that day!
Plus, it's only about a quarter-mile walk north on Pine Street to downtown Paso, where there are lots of shops. (Unfortunately, there are lumber yards along Pine Street between the station and the downtown area, which may discourage people from walking towards the train station when downtown.)
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
Pennsylvania Station, New York City is owned by Amtrak. It is the busiest station in the US, and one of the busiest in the world. It is probably the most profitable station Amtrak owns. It is also the remains of a buildings basement, a boring, ugly underground maze that makes many New Yorkers cringe in shame that they let the original building be demolished. A huge number of people who live in and around New York have been screaming their heads off since before Amtrak was created to have the ugly monolith known as Madison Square Garden demolished and replace it with something that does justice to what came before.
And still nothing is happening. Do you really think Amtrak is going to get enough help to rebuild glorified trailers and bus shelters as you suggest, in small towns of thousands, when millions have been screaming for this station to be rebuilt, and have failed?
And a concept: The Near Bankruptcy of a Glidepath to Self Sufficiency.
Need I say more?
And still nothing is happening. Do you really think Amtrak is going to get enough help to rebuild glorified trailers and bus shelters as you suggest, in small towns of thousands, when millions have been screaming for this station to be rebuilt, and have failed?
Let me drop two names here. George Warrington. Kentucky Cardinal.
And a concept: The Near Bankruptcy of a Glidepath to Self Sufficiency.
Need I say more?
Kummant can't sneeze for less than a million bucks.
Technically at the moment, several banks own NYP, since George mortgaged it to the hilt.
"This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to
us." -- Western Union internal memo,1876.
RTOlson
Lead Service Attendant
^^
Just because some people have different perspectives on your idea doesn't necessarily make them shortsighted naysayers.
I think the people on this board brought up a lot of good, considerate reasons why station renovation is a good idea. Also, how it might be a good idea for Amtrak to promote station renovation among the people that actually own the stations, but not to go further into the business itself.
Public and private partnerships will likely do a lot more than what Amtrak could ever do. Heck, the town of Dixon, Calif. built its own train station although no train currently stops there. Although there is the strong possibility of future Amtrak California service (and the station helps make Dixon's case), would Amtrak do something like that?
I don't think trying to compare going into the real estate business with an untested advance in technology quite works.
A lot of companies have attempted diversification. Some times it works, often times it doesn't. In many cases, a side venture might be profitable, but distracts the corporation from the core business (which, in this case, is running a national passenger rail network). In these cases, companies often opt to spin off the side venture to focus on the core.
Remember how Coca-Cola and Pepsi diversified in the 1970s and ’80s because they were concerned about limitations in the soda biz? Pepsi bought Frito-Lay, Pizza Hut and more. Coke even bought a movie studio (Columbia). Ultimately, they abandoned many of those efforts and expanded based along their core businesses (which still center around what people drink and eat).
So I understand the desire, but I think there are a lot of strong reasons to look elsewhere for Amtrak's (or passenger rail's) salvation.
Just because some people have different perspectives on your idea doesn't necessarily make them shortsighted naysayers.
I think the people on this board brought up a lot of good, considerate reasons why station renovation is a good idea. Also, how it might be a good idea for Amtrak to promote station renovation among the people that actually own the stations, but not to go further into the business itself.
Public and private partnerships will likely do a lot more than what Amtrak could ever do. Heck, the town of Dixon, Calif. built its own train station although no train currently stops there. Although there is the strong possibility of future Amtrak California service (and the station helps make Dixon's case), would Amtrak do something like that?
I don't think trying to compare going into the real estate business with an untested advance in technology quite works.
A lot of companies have attempted diversification. Some times it works, often times it doesn't. In many cases, a side venture might be profitable, but distracts the corporation from the core business (which, in this case, is running a national passenger rail network). In these cases, companies often opt to spin off the side venture to focus on the core.
Remember how Coca-Cola and Pepsi diversified in the 1970s and ’80s because they were concerned about limitations in the soda biz? Pepsi bought Frito-Lay, Pizza Hut and more. Coke even bought a movie studio (Columbia). Ultimately, they abandoned many of those efforts and expanded based along their core businesses (which still center around what people drink and eat).
So I understand the desire, but I think there are a lot of strong reasons to look elsewhere for Amtrak's (or passenger rail's) salvation.
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I should add that Amtrak does take advantage of opportunities to market their property and facilities for non-rail related revenue enhancement. Such ventures as fiber optic communications on the NEC and Harrisburg RW, air rights leasing, and station concessions are undertaken and contribute to Amtrak's bottom line. For example, the new Cira Centre high-rise office building is located over the Penn Coach Yard just north of 30th Street Station in Philadelphia. That building includes a parking garage for Amtrak passenger use (at $24 a day!) and both the building and the parking generate revenue for Amtrak. In FY2007, these ancillary business ventures contributed nearly $65 million in revenue to Amtrak. That is more revenue than the Empire Builder or any other single LD train contributed to Amtrak, and the ancillary revenue is nearly pure profit.
All of those ancillary ventures have a common element. Amtrak owns the land and infrastructure. Amtrak can only engage in ventures involving areas under which it has control. Outside the NEC and the Amtrak-owned line in Michigan, Amtrak owns very little property or infrastructure and has no financial incentive to change that.
All of those ancillary ventures have a common element. Amtrak owns the land and infrastructure. Amtrak can only engage in ventures involving areas under which it has control. Outside the NEC and the Amtrak-owned line in Michigan, Amtrak owns very little property or infrastructure and has no financial incentive to change that.
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