Could a train station make a profit for Amtrak? I think so

[GP35]

Lets use small town X USA, population 30k.

Amtrak station...

1. Amtrak cafe

2. Amtrak bed & breakfast (an 8 room add on to the station)...would you not like to visit these small towns but fear no nearby hotel/transportation.

3. Rent usage to Bus company;Greyhound. Much better for Greyhound passagers versus waiting at the gas station.

4. Amtrak rent out waiting area for community/senior center activities.

5. Amtrak gift shop

6. Small town CVB office.

I'm sure we could think of more. The point is this revenue for Amtrak

 

[Irv]

Give it a few years, and I think we'll see some of that.

Higher the gas prices, the sooner it will happen.

 

[AlanB]

Well first you're forgetting that Amtrak is really in the transportation business, not the local cafe business. Heck as we're seeing right now in the photography thread, Amtrak doesn't run the mall in WUS.

Secondly you're forgetting that Amtrak doesn't own most of those small town X stations. The local towns own them or the host RR owns them, in most cases. So Amtrak can't just walk in and do whatever they want. And I suspect that in most cases, the host RR or town would want a cut of the profits to help to pay for maintaining the station.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

I just hope Amtrak decides not to get into the parking business. Here in Norman OK, one of the nice benefits of taking the train is free safe parking is offered at the depot, and theoretically, you could leave a car there for several weeks without having to pay any fees. The Norman Depot, once owned by the Santa Fe, has been nicely restored and serves as a small art gallery and community meeting center. Amtrak has nothing to do with the depot, and at least in smaller markets, I cannot see a profit potential if they did.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Most stations aren't nearly big enough, and the parcel on which they and their parking lots sit, are not nearly large enough to do that, either. This is something that Amtrak and the landowners would need to work out in advance, so that the physical plant would be able to support all those additional functions and activities properly. You don't want to lose prospective passengers because the parking spaces they needed were taken up with bed and breakfast guests, shoppers, and the like. And certainly Amtrak should subcontract out, or sublease, the non-rail-transportation activities and stick to doing what they are there for - providing rail transportation.

Now, if they had the money to start with, which obviously they don't, to start spending it on large multi-function station facilities, doing all this would make sense, because it would tend to draw more folks to the train station, and would no doubt increase the passenger counts on their trains. And passengers would certainly rather arrive at a facility like that than at a flat piece of dirt or an empty concrete slab with no shelter in the middle of nowhere in a pouring rain or a snowstorm... I also think, though, that they need to provide at least some sort of shelter from the elements for passengers in the latter situations before they start building bed and breakfasts somewhere.

 

[Rafi]

FWIW, there has been talk for a number of years at Amtrak about transforming Baltimore Penn Station's upper level into a boutique hotel; they'd subcontract that out, of course. Unfortunately, it's one of those projects that seems to get picked up and dropped about once every two years, so I'll believe it when I see it...

 

[MStrain]

Down South (and elsewhere I suspect) the crime around the stations has just gotten plum ridiculous. Most people spend as little time as they have to in downtown Jackson, MS. There are plenty of renovations going on...we have a renovated station and the old King Edward Hotel is undergoing a multi-million dollar facelift.....but the bottom line is, we have to reform our communities first. We have to rethink the way we travel, live, etc if any of this is going to work. Jackson, MS was once a lovely, bustling town....with hundreds of shops, trolly lines, and several daily trains going all over the state......it is now a crime hell hole and is slowly falling in on itself. Sadly, this is not the only town like that.

 

[PRR 60]

One problem is that for almost all "Small Town USA" locations, Amtrak owns nothing. The stations are owned by a third party, usually the municipality or the railroad. The land is usually owned by the railroad. Amtrak in general has no rights to the station or the property except for use as a train station. Development rights would belong to the underlying owner.

 

[GP35]

You guys are putting up all these barries. Amtrak needs to diversify because transportation business alone is

not paying all the bills. And if Amtraks needs to get in the cafe business and bed & breakfast to pay the bills, I

say go for it. Revenue is revenue. Besides I would argue the train station is part of the transportation business.

There are plenty of awful train stations coast to coast. Amtrak should set aside 10 million a year and turn these

eye-sores into profit making train stations.

I figure each station similar to the one I described; Revenue - operational cost = $47,000

 

[GP35]

One problem is that for almost all "Small Town USA" locations, Amtrak owns nothing. The stations are owned by a third party, usually the municipality or the railroad. The land is usually owned by the railroad. Amtrak in general has no rights to the station or the property except for use as a train station. Development rights would belong to the underlying owner.

This is not a good arguement for against. Amtrak could purchase some land or the town donate it. Each city is different so I don't want

to generalize solutions. Think outside the box.

 

[the_traveler]

The KIN station (which I think would qualify as "small town USA") is a 18xx-era station, with 2 halves (built back in the "old days" with a "men's side" and a "women's side"). I believe it is owned by the Town of South Kingstown (which is where Kingston is located).

One half of the station is the Amtrak ticket window and waiting room. The other half is a museum operated by the Friends of Kingston Station. And the station is the northern end of the South County Bike Trail (built on the ROW of the Narragansett Pier RR). And it has a large parking lot - much larger than you would expect in "Small Town, USA". And it is a stop on 2 routes of RIPTA (the "city" - actually RI - bus).

So the parking can be hard to find - especially on the weekends or good days. Now add a cafe, hotel, etc... into the mix! Do you think the people trying to catch a train, who find no parking available, will be glad for the extra cars there because of the businesses? :huh:

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

You guys are putting up all these barries. Amtrak needs to diversify because transportation business alone isnot paying all the bills. And if Amtraks needs to get in the cafe business and bed & breakfast to pay the bills, I

say go for it. Revenue is revenue. Besides I would argue the train station is part of the transportation business.

There are plenty of awful train stations coast to coast. Amtrak should set aside 10 million a year and turn these

eye-sores into profit making train stations.

I figure each station similar to the one I described; Revenue - operational cost = $47,000

Your points are well made, however, it all comes down to money! Amtrak cannot afford to run the current business in its present state, and they never will be able to. Without government subsidy the whole thing is a lost cause. Amtrak needs to stick with the basics for what it was created for, and that is to "operate the passenger trains to relieve the carriers of that money losing responsibilty." The only way I believe your plan can work is for the private sector and the local communities get involved (as many already are and have been doing so), and take stock in their transportation facilities. Amtrak can not be expected to do more other than operate the passenger service sector. Again, that is the reason for its creation! Otherwise, Amtrak should be dissolved and the freight carriers or some other private operator can step up to the plate to tackle that venture. Government subsidy would still have to remain in place in any event to help whoever was operating that sector. Sadly, no-one will really step up to the plate to do that, and it is best to keep Amtrak in place as they have the best advantages to operate passenger trains which were set up during its creation. Amtrak needs to run trains, and make every improvement there first and foremost! Sorry, the money is just not there.

OBS gone freight...

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

One problem is that for almost all "Small Town USA" locations, Amtrak owns nothing. The stations are owned by a third party, usually the municipality or the railroad. The land is usually owned by the railroad. Amtrak in general has no rights to the station or the property except for use as a train station. Development rights would belong to the underlying owner.

This is not a good arguement for against. Amtrak could purchase some land or the town donate it. Each city is different so I don't want

to generalize solutions. Think outside the box.

Ummm, but that is a very good argument with a very factual point being made. Do you seriously believe Amtrak has "limitless" capital to purchase land and facilities? And do you expect the local communities to pony up the capital to purchase or even donate to Amtrak when in these times of huge budget cuts? Communities are struggling with how they are going to pay for their fire and police protection along with public schools, etc. There is much more to the big picture!

OBS gone freight...

 

[haolerider]

You guys are putting up all these barries. Amtrak needs to diversify because transportation business alone isnot paying all the bills. And if Amtraks needs to get in the cafe business and bed & breakfast to pay the bills, I

say go for it. Revenue is revenue. Besides I would argue the train station is part of the transportation business.

There are plenty of awful train stations coast to coast. Amtrak should set aside 10 million a year and turn these

eye-sores into profit making train stations.

I figure each station similar to the one I described; Revenue - operational cost = $47,000

Although your ideas are good, in most cases in these small towns, there is only one train per day in each direction and that makes it almost impossible to make any money with a cafe - especially if the trains are in the middle of the night or other times not conducive to meals. I have been in the food business and there is no way you can make money with the labor costs necessary to cover the preparation of food and provide service during the limited times available. Also, as has been pointed out in previous posts, Amtrak does not own these stations and most small communities are trying to find additional ways to make revenue from their stations. In many cases , the Chamber of Commerce has taken over space in renovated stations.

I have also been in the hotel business and while it may seem potentially profitable to have a bed & breakfast or small hotel, there is no way this kind of operation would be profitable.

You need to get out and see where these small town stations are located. In most cases, the stations are not in the most desirable parts of the city and there is a reason there are no retail businesses located near the station.

 

[GP35]

The KIN station (which I think would qualify as "small town USA") is a 18xx-era station, with 2 halves (built back in the "old days" with a "men's side" and a "women's side"). I believe it is owned by the Town of South Kingstown (which is where Kingston is located).
One half of the station is the Amtrak ticket window and waiting room. The other half is a museum operated by the Friends of Kingston Station. And the station is the northern end of the South County Bike Trail (built on the ROW of the Narragansett Pier RR). And it has a large parking lot - much larger than you would expect in "Small Town, USA". And it is a stop on 2 routes of RIPTA (the "city" - actually RI - bus).

So the parking can be hard to find - especially on the weekends or good days. Now add a cafe, hotel, etc... into the mix! Do you think the people trying to catch a train, who find no parking available, will be glad for the extra cars there because of the businesses? :huh:

Maybe Amtrak can hire a science to invent building bigger parking lots.

 

[GP35]

You guys are putting up all these barries. Amtrak needs to diversify because transportation business alone isnot paying all the bills. And if Amtraks needs to get in the cafe business and bed & breakfast to pay the bills, I

say go for it. Revenue is revenue. Besides I would argue the train station is part of the transportation business.

There are plenty of awful train stations coast to coast. Amtrak should set aside 10 million a year and turn these

eye-sores into profit making train stations.

I figure each station similar to the one I described; Revenue - operational cost = $47,000

Your points are well made, however, it all comes down to money! Amtrak cannot afford to run the current business in its present state, and they never will be able to. Without government subsidy the whole thing is a lost cause. Amtrak needs to stick with the basics for what it was created for, and that is to "operate the passenger trains to relieve the carriers of that money losing responsibilty." The only way I believe your plan can work is for the private sector and the local communities get involved (as many already are and have been doing so), and take stock in their transportation facilities. Amtrak can not be expected to do more other than operate the passenger service sector. Again, that is the reason for its creation! Otherwise, Amtrak should be dissolved and the freight carriers or some other private operator can step up to the plate to tackle that venture. Government subsidy would still have to remain in place in any event to help whoever was operating that sector. Sadly, no-one will really step up to the plate to do that, and it is best to keep Amtrak in place as they have the best advantages to operate passenger trains which were set up during its creation. Amtrak needs to run trains, and make every improvement there first and foremost! Sorry, the money is just not there.

OBS gone freight...

But don't you see, Amtrak is already doing what you posted. The private sector or anyone else is not stepping up.

 

[GP35]

One problem is that for almost all "Small Town USA" locations, Amtrak owns nothing. The stations are owned by a third party, usually the municipality or the railroad. The land is usually owned by the railroad. Amtrak in general has no rights to the station or the property except for use as a train station. Development rights would belong to the underlying owner.

This is not a good arguement for against. Amtrak could purchase some land or the town donate it. Each city is different so I don't want

to generalize solutions. Think outside the box.

Ummm, but that is a very good argument with a very factual point being made. Do you seriously believe Amtrak has "limitless" capital to purchase land and facilities? And do you expect the local communities to pony up the capital to purchase or even donate to Amtrak when in these times of huge budget cuts? Communities are struggling with how they are going to pay for their fire and police protection along with public schools, etc. There is much more to the big picture!

OBS gone freight...

If they do maybe 10-15 stations per year, yes. Limit cost to under 1 million. yes.

 

[GP35]

You guys are putting up all these barries. Amtrak needs to diversify because transportation business alone isnot paying all the bills. And if Amtraks needs to get in the cafe business and bed & breakfast to pay the bills, I

say go for it. Revenue is revenue. Besides I would argue the train station is part of the transportation business.

There are plenty of awful train stations coast to coast. Amtrak should set aside 10 million a year and turn these

eye-sores into profit making train stations.

I figure each station similar to the one I described; Revenue - operational cost = $47,000

Although your ideas are good, in most cases in these small towns, there is only one train per day in each direction and that makes it almost impossible to make any money with a cafe - especially if the trains are in the middle of the night or other times not conducive to meals. I have been in the food business and there is no way you can make money with the labor costs necessary to cover the preparation of food and provide service during the limited times available. Also, as has been pointed out in previous posts, Amtrak does not own these stations and most small communities are trying to find additional ways to make revenue from their stations. In many cases , the Chamber of Commerce has taken over space in renovated stations.

I have also been in the hotel business and while it may seem potentially profitable to have a bed & breakfast or small hotel, there is no way this kind of operation would be profitable.

You need to get out and see where these small town stations are located. In most cases, the stations are not in the most desirable parts of the city and there is a reason there are no retail businesses located near the station.

Amtrak would run the cafe at best business time reguardless of the train schedule.
If cafes and bed & breakfast aren't profitable, why do they still exist. The stations will help pay for the operational cost of the train. Also prove jobs

making it hard for anyone to oppose Amtrak in congress.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Lets use small town X USA, population 30k. Amtrak station...

1. Amtrak cafe

2. Amtrak bed & breakfast (an 8 room add on to the station)...would you not like to visit these small towns but fear no nearby hotel/transportation.

3. Rent usage to Bus company;Greyhound. Much better for Greyhound passagers versus waiting at the gas station.

4. Amtrak rent out waiting area for community/senior center activities.

5. Amtrak gift shop

6. Small town CVB office.

I'm sure we could think of more. The point is this revenue for Amtrak

If a cafe near the train station and a bed and breakfast near the train station are by themselves profitable, why aren't private businesses already serving these markets?

The bus companies probably prefer to use a stop that has the lowest possible rent. Thus, except in an especially large city, there's not going to be much money here, and there are well established bus terminals Greyhound uses in cties like Boston and New York. (In Boston, that bus terminal is even adjacent to the train station.)

One thing I would like to see, where Amtrak has manned stations in cities that lack subway systems, is for Amtrak to provide a car rental desk that's open at all the hours trains come through the station. I suspect that, ignoring any possible stupid union rules, if the Amtrak employees didn't process car rentals until they were done dealing with baggage from a train that had arrived, they could process the car rental transactions in time that they would otherwise be on the clock but not really doing anything. Either that, or get Zipcar to offer service at every Amtrak station in the country.

 

[AlanB]

Your points are well made, however, it all comes down to money! Amtrak cannot afford to run the current business in its present state, and they never will be able to. Without government subsidy the whole thing is a lost cause. Amtrak needs to stick with the basics for what it was created for, and that is to "operate the passenger trains to relieve the carriers of that money losing responsibilty." The only way I believe your plan can work is for the private sector and the local communities get involved (as many already are and have been doing so), and take stock in their transportation facilities. Amtrak can not be expected to do more other than operate the passenger service sector. Again, that is the reason for its creation! Otherwise, Amtrak should be dissolved and the freight carriers or some other private operator can step up to the plate to tackle that venture. Government subsidy would still have to remain in place in any event to help whoever was operating that sector. Sadly, no-one will really step up to the plate to do that, and it is best to keep Amtrak in place as they have the best advantages to operate passenger trains which were set up during its creation. Amtrak needs to run trains, and make every improvement there first and foremost! Sorry, the money is just not there.

OBS gone freight...

But don't you see, Amtrak is already doing what you posted. The private sector or anyone else is not stepping up.

Actually local communities and some private initiatives are indeed stepping up to the plate. They might not be stepping up as much as we railfans might like, but the reality is that there are stations like Meridian and others that have been fixed up and improved.

 

[AlanB]

You guys are putting up all these barries. Amtrak needs to diversify because transportation business alone isnot paying all the bills. And if Amtraks needs to get in the cafe business and bed & breakfast to pay the bills, I

say go for it. Revenue is revenue. Besides I would argue the train station is part of the transportation business.

There are plenty of awful train stations coast to coast. Amtrak should set aside 10 million a year and turn these

eye-sores into profit making train stations.

I figure each station similar to the one I described; Revenue - operational cost = $47,000

Although your ideas are good, in most cases in these small towns, there is only one train per day in each direction and that makes it almost impossible to make any money with a cafe - especially if the trains are in the middle of the night or other times not conducive to meals. I have been in the food business and there is no way you can make money with the labor costs necessary to cover the preparation of food and provide service during the limited times available. Also, as has been pointed out in previous posts, Amtrak does not own these stations and most small communities are trying to find additional ways to make revenue from their stations. In many cases , the Chamber of Commerce has taken over space in renovated stations.

I have also been in the hotel business and while it may seem potentially profitable to have a bed & breakfast or small hotel, there is no way this kind of operation would be profitable.

You need to get out and see where these small town stations are located. In most cases, the stations are not in the most desirable parts of the city and there is a reason there are no retail businesses located near the station.

Amtrak would run the cafe at best business time reguardless of the train schedule.
If cafes and bed & breakfast aren't profitable, why do they still exist. The stations will help pay for the operational cost of the train. Also prove jobs

making it hard for anyone to oppose Amtrak in congress.

Actually the odds are that it will increase opposition in Congress, when all the little coffee shops and B & B's start complaining to their local Congress person about the Federal government subsidizing competing business. Amtrak already gets that nonsense from some bus companies, like Indian Trails in Michigan, where the support for Indian Trails has come very close on several occasions to derailing Amtrak funding in that state.

 

[Kiel]

Could a train station make a profit for Amtrak?

No. Never.

Amtrak doesn't own the small town train stations, so they can't charge the starbucks or the B&B (or whatever) for rent.

Can Amtrak buy a piece of land and build a train station?

No. Never.

Buying a piece of land or building or remodeling a building requires capital money. Amtrak can't get capital without a literal act of congress. Why would Amtrak go to the US Congress and ask for capital money for pieces of land and train stations when they could go to congress and ask for capital money for trains or rails or catenary? That would be absurd. Congress would laugh in their faces and say, "what do you mean you want to buy land build a train station, the little town already has a train station?!"

So, if a little town wants to spruce up its station and add a cafe or a hotel or whatever, that's great and it makes things nicer for everyone. But Amtrak will never be able to afford to build or renovate the station themselves, and if they don't own the station, they can't make any money off of the little businesses that move into the station.

So, yeah, this is a nice idea, but it's a total pipe dream. If Amtrak wants money, it and we as voters have to ask congress for it. There is no other timely, efficient, or practical way for Amtrak to make the money it needs to become better than it is.

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

But don't you see, Amtrak is already doing what you posted. The private sector or anyone else is not stepping up.

Show me where Amtrak has taken such intiatives on its own outside the NEC without any outside help from either of the federal, state, local governments, as well as the private private sector!

If you are pointing out that Amtrak is stepping up to operate passenger trains (mainly medium short distance and long) to take that load off of the frewight carriers, then you're correct. You are correct that the private sector will not touch the "operations" aspect of a passenger railroad unless there are genrous subsidies to pay the losses incured with taking on such a venture.

Everywhere I see anything in regard to improvements with stations and other public use facilities for Amtrak, it is usually a local community venture or a private initiative that initiates it and follows through with it.

OBS gone freight...

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

If they do maybe 10-15 stations per year, yes. Limit cost to under 1 million. yes.

How can they do 10-15 stations per year while limiting cost to under one million dollars per year? You may need to consider that it cost in the neighborhood of $600,000 (including all fees from consulting to permits) to make the improvements which were needed at Amtrak's DeLand, FL (DLD) depot ALONE!!! That's $400,000 shy of $1 million, my friend!!!! And only one small station we're speaking of here! And if they hadn't recieved the bulk of the money from the government and private initiatives, it would have never happened! Amtrak owns the building, but CSX owns the property the building sits upon. So limiting costs to 1 million dollars per year to do 10-15 stations just doesn't add up.

It is best to lay out these expectations to federal, state, and local (local is best) municipalities in addtion to the private sector as in many locations is already happening. But expecting Amtrak to do it themselves is not going to cut it! They need more equipment and the necessary manpower to do the job they are supposed to do, and that's run trains and keep them in a good state of repair so they'll be reliable. Bigger improvements need to be made there in the operations portion before we even think of asking Amtrak to start looking outside the box!

I mean, it appears to me that it is more important to you for Amtrak to have stations with malls, stores, ect, than to have better operating, more reliable, equipment needed to keep the business running. And we need more of it as business continues to grow! If we concentrate on the basics, then the other stuff will fall into place as needed (or wanted). In other words, if Amtrak can provide more of a product and service in more locations, then the increase of traffic will mean more people around for the private sector to tap into. That is how I see your plan could work and take place.

OBS gone freight...

 

[GP35]

You guys are putting up all these barries. Amtrak needs to diversify because transportation business alone isnot paying all the bills. And if Amtraks needs to get in the cafe business and bed & breakfast to pay the bills, I

say go for it. Revenue is revenue. Besides I would argue the train station is part of the transportation business.

There are plenty of awful train stations coast to coast. Amtrak should set aside 10 million a year and turn these

eye-sores into profit making train stations.

I figure each station similar to the one I described; Revenue - operational cost = $47,000

Although your ideas are good, in most cases in these small towns, there is only one train per day in each direction and that makes it almost impossible to make any money with a cafe - especially if the trains are in the middle of the night or other times not conducive to meals. I have been in the food business and there is no way you can make money with the labor costs necessary to cover the preparation of food and provide service during the limited times available. Also, as has been pointed out in previous posts, Amtrak does not own these stations and most small communities are trying to find additional ways to make revenue from their stations. In many cases , the Chamber of Commerce has taken over space in renovated stations.

I have also been in the hotel business and while it may seem potentially profitable to have a bed & breakfast or small hotel, there is no way this kind of operation would be profitable.

You need to get out and see where these small town stations are located. In most cases, the stations are not in the most desirable parts of the city and there is a reason there are no retail businesses located near the station.

Amtrak would run the cafe at best business time reguardless of the train schedule.
If cafes and bed & breakfast aren't profitable, why do they still exist. The stations will help pay for the operational cost of the train. Also prove jobs

making it hard for anyone to oppose Amtrak in congress.

Actually the odds are that it will increase opposition in Congress, when all the little coffee shops and B & B's start complaining to their local Congress person about the Federal government subsidizing competing business. Amtrak already gets that nonsense from some bus companies, like Indian Trails in Michigan, where the support for Indian Trails has come very close on several occasions to derailing Amtrak funding in that state.

Good point...