City of New Orleans Food was great!

[RailFanNebraska]

HMMM, personally when i think about this, if amtrak were to lower there prices a bit (just a few dollars) they could probably get alot more people into the snake bar lounge or dinner.

When i was on the California Zephyr last the dinning car was just empty.

I have eaten airline food before, they only serve it now (for us lowly people in coach) on international flights, it was pretty good, but, if i was on a train for 24 hours + , im telling you right now i wouldnt want to eat it over and over again.

Sure the food i good, but there isnt any comparsion to something that is freshly made on aboard.

 

[RailFanNebraska]

look at it this way, amtrak loses 120 million on food service a year, they need to figure out a way to get there passenger to spend 4 dollars and 8 cents on board to cover this loss (25 million annually)

there is a very simple way to do this, raise ticket prices 5 dollars, and say to every passenger you have 5 dollars credit in the lounge or dinner, they will end up spending more money, couple dollars mroe and low and behold, amtrak makes a profit on food service

 

[battalion51]

HMMM, personally when i think about this, if amtrak were to lower there prices a bit (just a few dollars) they could probably get alot more people into the snake bar lounge or dinner.

Well let's just hope the snakes aren't posionous. B)

 

[Trogdor]

Sure the food i good, but there isnt any comparsion to something that is freshly made on aboard.

Most food hasn't been made fresh on board in a while. Even current dining car fare is precooked and stored, and simply heated up when ordered (how else do you think they manage to cook a steak dinner in 10 minutes?).

Some items may be freshly prepared on board, but most of the stuff is at least somewhat precooked.

 

[Trogdor]

look at it this way, amtrak loses 120 million on food service a year, they need to figure out a way to get there passenger to spend 4 dollars and 8 cents on board to cover this loss (25 million annually)
there is a very simple way to do this, raise ticket prices 5 dollars, and say to every passenger you have 5 dollars credit in the lounge or dinner, they will end up spending more money, couple dollars mroe and low and behold, amtrak makes a profit on food service

Not quite.

First of all, of those 25 million passengers, very many of them are short-distance passengers. Some short-distance trains don't have food service at all (and ticket prices are also at least partially controlled by the state that sponsors the service).

Secondly, if a passenger was going to spend $5 in the lounge car, then raising their ticket price by $5, and giving them a $5 credit, has yielded a net income change of zero for Amtrak.

Third, on some trains, the line for food service in the lounge can be extremely long (I have seen 20-30 minute waits for the cafe car on the Wolverine; and understand that they can be just as bad on the NEC). That's with just a fraction of the ridership choosing to go and get something to eat. Now, give *everybody* a reason to get up and grab a bag of chips or soda, and those waits could easily extend beyond the actual length of the trip for some passengers. If a passenger pays an extra $5, and is unable to use the credit, that's going to lead to some very pissed off people. Someone that feels they've paid for something they didn't get isn't likely to return to that business.

 

[Sam Damon]

Most food hasn't been made fresh on board in a while. Even current dining car fare is precooked and stored, and simply heated up when ordered (how else do you think they manage to cook a steak dinner in 10 minutes?).
Some items may be freshly prepared on board, but most of the stuff is at least somewhat precooked.

I was under the impression the steaks were one of the few things cooked on board, along with the baked potatoes.

I can understand the chicken and fish items coming smack-dab from the freezer and into the convection ovens...

 

[battalion51]

the line for food service in the lounge can be extremely long (I have seen 20-30 minute waits for the cafe car on the Wolverine; and understand that they can be just as bad on the NEC).

This is true even on some long distance trains, I've seen 15-20 minute lines that last for an hour and a half, in non-peak season!

I was under the impression the steaks were one of the few things cooked on board, along with the baked potatoes.

That is correct, along with the hamburgers. How else do you get a steak or burger that's cooked to your liking? Items like the chicken, fish, and baked potatoes are put in the ovens for cooking/warming an hour or two before meal time.

 

[RailFanNebraska]

there is also another issue with food service, HIGH labor cost. Amtrak actually only hires .... the head conductors and engineers, because they are the only ones that really need training ... this some hireing firm hires (in chicago maybe) highers all the assistances, they live on the train for a week then get 6 days off (or it could be the other away around). and assistances get paid 3/4 of what the engineers get paid ... thats crazy (or so i have been told

 

[trainboy325]

High labor cost is a major issue in the price of Amtrak food service items. The debate over labor costs has been posted many times on other posts in this forum.

Unfortunately, in the case of food service prices, you aren't going to change the labor cost issue. The only thing right now the company is doing is to abolish positions, like the second waiter and the food specialist, to decrease dining car labor costs. However, the problem is that the chef and LSA who have to be in the dining cars under the current ASWC work rules are the ones that have the highest per hour salaries (using a standard seniority pay scale based on years of service). Knowing that the OBS unions won't support abolishing certain crafts, the only way the company can "save" on labor cost, as directed in the FY2006 appropriation bill, is to abolish the labor intensive component of food service, the dining cars. That's why, regardless of what people want or complain about, Amtrak trains will only have a snack bar type food service car operated by one person, an LSA, by the end of the year. You can doubt all you want, but it will happen on all remaining trains after the decision to specific routes is decided and implemented. Period! <_<

As I've said over and over, the only way to "save" the traditional passenger railroad experience in the United States is to let the National Railroad Passenger Corporation go bankrupted, cease to exist, and create a new agency that isn't subject to the jurisdiction and service operation guidelines of the Railway Labor Act and the Federal Railroad Administration. Until this happens, and passenger railroading in America is only Amtrak due to its legal monopoly of intercity railroad service, the only trains that will live are corridor routes with no on-board service component. :angry:

 

[RailFanNebraska]

there is honestly no point to having several different company's run rail in this country. If you need an example of why this would be bad, just go to england, no matter waht the republicans tell you, and heritage foundation, its been an absolute disaster, i have talked to people from england about this too.

The laws just need to be changed, seriously. and how would you plan on doing that, anything that runs on rails in this country is going to be subject somewhat to the federal government and the FRA.

And, if you want to start a intercity rail business, its not that hard, all you have to do is get investors and some government money, there is nothing stopping this, the problem is, passenger railroads, like all masstransit (highways airlines ect) is a unprofitable business and will always be dependent on government money to some extent.

and if the national passenger railroad corp. dies, dies with it are the rights to frieght railroad tracks, so then intercity rail would become to expensive, because you would have to build thousands of miles of new track, something thats needs to be done anyway, but the unrail friendly federal government would never finanaic and states could afford.

 

[amtrak_flyer]

Talking about labor overall. Im an airline pilot, not that I would want anyone to have to go through what the airline industry has gone through. But the majority of airline employees have taken 25-40 percent pay cuts over the last 3 years plus loss of pensions etc etc. Sounds like were about to see the same thing happen in the auto industry. My personal opinion is theres a problem in this country when rank and file employees are loosing so much and CEO's are getting 10 million dollar bonuses to lead a company through chapter 11 which may have been the CEO's fault in the first place. Back to my point though.

Heres my question, if we were to see these type of drastic pay and benefit cuts at Amtrak, how much would that actually save. Would that get big brother (Bush) off Amtraks back?

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Consider Amtrak=Israel and Bush=Hamas, except with more hostility from the latter to the former. That seems to be about the mentality in W's administration, with about as much concern for anybody else's opinion as a rabid dog has. He won't rest until Amtrak is dead and buried, preferably with at least one stake through it's heart.

 

[trainboy325]

I would support such moves to make concessions on the costs of labor to save the company. Unfortunately, the union won't bite and we will all go down in flames. I'll except RailFanNebraska's reasons that killing the NRPC will severely damage the easements on the freight railroads. However, I need to stress that without changes in the overall structure of Amtrak's operations, the company will fail. I'll except at this point if you want to save "Amtrak", outsource the OBS component, like to Marriot or Aramark, that are in the business of providing food and lodging service to government agencies, like the Park Service and most colleges and universities. By allowing for a uniform contract, with accomodation prices on tickets going directly to these companies, you'll still have the overall "subsidy" of a goverment organization that is chartered as

"for profit." That's why until NRPC is dissolved with a new organization inheriting the rights and privilages of Amtrak, but not the debt and for profit organization will Amtrak really succeed in this new era of domestic government program downsizing. <_<

 

[RailFanNebraska]

well i would ask you trainboy?, why dont we just keep amtrak the way it is? granite over the past 35 years its never turned a profit, but its there to provide a service, thats national railway transportation. whats really wrong with amtrak, granite they wont get you there on time, most of the time, but who does anymore (airlines have delays, highways have traffic jams).

you havent really persented a clear idea of how you want to fix amtrak other than let it die. if you want intercity rail transportation, you are going to have to run the trains on the frieght lines, or you going to have to invest billions, nearly trillions, in a passenger rail network, neither of which you need to dismantle amtrak to do. im just curious where you are trying to go here

 

[trainboy325]

My idea to "save" Amtrak is to see NRPC disappear. I would prefer to see the railroad companies be forced to operate intercity trains and provide traditional service. I already know the reasons why Amtrak was created in the first place, so no need explain. Since Amtrak's 35 plus year history, Amtrak has been the dumping ground for bankrupted airline executives getting middle management jobs that have led to the shaping of the system being a hodgepoge of equipment types, fadish operating plans and bogged down by the notion that "the union" has protected front line jobs for years. Amtrak's charter as a "for profit" government corporation has been its failure. With a system based on bureaucratic leadership than that of business management pratices, the company has no marketing or entreprenual spirit that has stiffled business growth and has weakened its view as a viable transportation program to the mainstream political and economic minds that direct national public policy.

I say this as a long time Amtrak employee. After two years of not seeing improvement, managers being rewarded with bonuses that encourage service cuts, employee reduction and allowing equipment to fall apart around the passengers was enough for me to end my support of the current Amtrak model. Even under the leadership of David Gunn, whom I believe was Amtrak's greatest president, the distructive culture of Amtrak's network of bureaucratic unproductive managers remaining in power and never being attacked with the force necessary to really change a system that constantly wanted to cut train service to "save money" for the sake of making the company more "financially viable" and being rewarded with substantial bonuses for making the trains poor products in the American transportation market. I've been Amtrak's biggest supporter for years, long before becoming an employee and remain an avid rider on my offtime. I have long held the so-called "conservative" belief that "Amtrak is Amtrak's biggest problem." It's true. Period!

Amtrak's biggest problem has always been that it doesn't have a "voice" in Washington. The secret to succeeding as a government agency or interstate business in this country is to have a powerful lobbying group that makes money for someone: politicians, Wall Street types, etc. If you can create a system where passenger rail can make money for someone who's in power in this country, problem solved. Unfortunately, I don't have the answer on how to save the current Amtrak under our system of public policy politics. My first step would be setup a system that would subsidize the railroads like the airlines where private companies get money to run a service that isn't profitable in the marketplace. Airlines in this country have been bankrupted hundreds of times and you never hear about "shutdown" every year! That's because they have a lobbying powerhouse that will ensure that they keep running even if they have to run empty planes to maintain a "national" network in cities and Congressional districts of those in power in Washington and New York's financial world. If, for example, Norfolk Southern were ordered to operate the Crescent, the train would be a quality product that, if required (will need), would be "subsidized" by the government. Now you have a "Washington player" , Norfolk Southern with its New York CEOs and Washington lobbyist, who will seek to "expand" service in order to apply and receive more monies from both federal and state sources. This build's NS' bottom line, creates jobs in the private sector, improves the utility of passenger rail. Everyone is happy!

There's no telling if such a system would work. It is possible that such a plan was a concept being discussed in the early 1970s and determined to be a non-starter. I don't know. Prior to Amtrak's creation, a concept called RailPax was in the works that worked something like old Pullman company where the railroads operated the trains and a goverment agency or non-profit corporation operated and paid for the passenger train system. The more freight railroads provide routes and equipment for a passenger train, the more money they got to have passenger service on their roads. Taxes are collected on the accomodation portion of ticket fares to support the RailPax fund in addition to a national sales tax (in the form of a gas tax). As for the services borne by RailPax, it would similar to those of Pullman, providing food, lodging and in this case, a coach car class.

This plan doesn't have any details of operations, but that's the purpose of my posts. Whatever anyone wants, this is for certain: The current Amtrak is being destroyed and I don't see a window to stop the tide. Unless we as railfans don't come up with a more politically realistic model for passenger rail soon, we'll see all the trains disappear with Amtrak's current management at the helm. :unsure:

 

[AmtrakWPK]

The problem I have with that is that if Amtrak actually ceases to exist, so does the national passenger system with enforced, required access to freight rail systems to carry the pax on. So the fight should be to keep Amtrak in existence, at whatever cost, until a new administration can be voted in to try to rebuild it, with those national rights still intact. If Amtrak ceases to exist, we rail pax are screwed (sorry) except perhaps for regional, commuter, and light rail.

 

[RailFanNebraska]

But is it not the freight railroads that want amtrak off its lines? as i recall, right before amtrak was created, there was a railroad in california that advertised that people shouldnt ride their trains.

i mean i dont have a plan for intercity rail in this country than that to spend gobbles of money on a passenger rail dedicated network. or keep amtrak the way it is, while increaseing funding slightly to maintian repair and purchase new train sets. no matter what you do, the freight railroads dont want passenger trains on their lines, and never will. Their will continue to lobby people in the bush adminstration and the GOP party to get rid of amtrak, and thus intercity rail in this country all together.

Idk, i just would hate to see amtrak gone

 

[gswager]

I agree with you, RailFanNebraska, about not letting Amtrak dies. If that happens, Amtrak will be forcibily selling their stocks such as Amtrak owned-tracks, cars, locomotives, stations, etc. to pay the debt.

There is no plan B set up in case Amtrak dies, except for local commuting trains. If White House decide to change the mind, they'll have to build a plan, negogating with host RRs, cities for stations, buying cars (has to be special orders because there is no manufacturers that build long distance trains), locomotives, training employees, etc. It may take 3-5 years to re-start.

 

[WICT106]

Actually, if you read the National Corridors Inititative website here, they have listed some offers in the past three years from railroads like Norfolk Southern and BNSF, where the companies have made favorable statements regarding public - private partnerships. One form these partnerships might take is described here, under "Amtrak Reform Proposals . . ." So, some railroads are willing to work, but the partnership has to include paying for improvements that benefit both passenger rail and freight service. For example, purchasing additional track. or reimbursing the freight railroad for the additional track capacity within a given region.

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

And we don't even want to talk about the money it would cost to dissmantle Amtrak such as C2 pay etc it would even this far C2 pay is from 3-5 years full pay and then after the 3-5 years the Amtrak employees that worked freight service could bump back into freight service with there senority.

And if a young Freight Railroader got furloughed because of an Amtrak employee to where he can't hold the Government will pay these people to sit at home until they can rehold.

 

[trainboy325]

The realities that having a Republican or Democratic president don't make a difference on the future of a "national" rail system. As for another administration, you assume that the spiril of destruction will end and would improve even with a Democratic administration in the White House. The last two Democrats in the White House, Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter, saw there share of route closures compared to Republican presidents. In fact, it was during the Clinton Administration that the Desert Wind and Pioneer disappeared. Jimmy Carter's administration saw the loss of the Floridian, which was by far Amtrak's most significant route loss: the CHI to Florida market.

I think that the fact that this adminstration is so hell bent of killing Amtrak, even with legislative support from the Congress, which Amtrak has had for years regardless of the party holding the majority, has started a chain effect that will be difficult to stop. However, the long time "decay" of the Amtrak system has been in affect for years and is victim of a poor management culture that lacks a "railroading" spirit. Amtrak has had money poured into it for years, sometimes not enough, but none the less, has received substantial monies and the company has little to show for it after 35 years of having unique rights and privilages not afforded to any other type of "private" business. Poor contracts, nepotism, corrupted CEOs is why Amtrak is a failure, not Congress or the President. Every federal agency is "underfunded" in the eyes of its stakeholders. Amtrak is by no means anything like a railroad in Europe or Japan. I isn't designed or funded to be. I can't think of any federal program that is run by people who have no concept of the business they operate other than Amtrak. My greatest example is that of the On-board Service Manager in New Orleans. She got her job because she was the babysitter of the Southern Region's Superintendent, has only a high school diploma and beat out an individual who had a master's degree and business adminstration with a hospitality minor. That, ladies and gentlement, regardless of how much money you throw at it will fail because it is run by incompotent and ignorant people. And if you think that, to give a benefit to the doubt, that she was qualified because of her years of service at Amtrak: she was only a two year LSA with over 25 discipline reports against her in her permanent record! That's a fact, I saw the paperwork myself with my own eyes after having a conference with the crew base manager about not being offered opportunities other than being an LSA with the company. Obviously, my crew base manager's releasing this information to me was her way of showing her dissatisfaction with the company's management culture.

I have reservations and are apprehensive about my approach to "saving" Amtrak. It is difficult to see and easy to fear what lies beyond the horizon of the unknown. But I would rather take a leap of faith, take a chance and try something new. I'm tired of supporting of railroad program that shortchanges its employees, provides overall poor service to its customers, and benefits only a small portion of the country just because I'm afraid of losing the tri-weekly Sunset Limited or service strapped Palmetto because CSX "may" choose not to operate a good passenger train. I guess my support of killing NRPC is more of wanting to open the door to something other than "business as usual." Sorry, I don't see the quality and innovation at Amtrak that deserves the American taxpayer's dollar that primarily go to the salaries of employees, mostly the mountains of managers who don't know their own job description, and the massive bureaucratic machine located in the Northeast United States versus equipment, emenities and quality performance traveling over a "national" railroad network. :angry: There's not much more I can or will say over this issue as it is very upsetting to me and my view of something I hold very dear to my heart: passenger railroading.

 

[AmtrakFan]

In fact, it was during the Clinton Administration that the Desert Wind and Pioneer disappeared. Jimmy Carter's administration saw the loss of the Floridian, which was by far Amtrak's most significant route loss: the CHI to Florida market.
I think that the fact that this adminstration is so hell bent of killing Amtrak, even with legislative support from the Congress, which Amtrak has had for years regardless of the party holding the majority, has started a chain effect that will be difficult to stop. However, the long time "decay" of the Amtrak system has been in affect for years and is victim of a poor management culture that lacks a "railroading" spirit. Amtrak has had money poured into it for years, sometimes not enough, but none the less, has received substantial monies and the company has little to show for it after 35 years of having unique rights and privilages not afforded to any other type of "private" business. Poor contracts, nepotism, corrupted CEOs is why Amtrak is a failure, not Congress or the President. Every federal agency is "underfunded" in the eyes of its stakeholders. Amtrak is by no means anything like a railroad in Europe or Japan. I isn't designed or funded to be. I can't think of any federal program that is run by people who have no concept of the business they operate other than Amtrak. My greatest example is that of the On-board Service Manager in New Orleans. She got her job because she was the babysitter of the Southern Region's Superintendent, has only a high school diploma and beat out an individual who had a master's degree and business adminstration with a hospitality minor. And if you think that, to give a benefit to the doubt, that she was qualified because of her years of service at Amtrak: she was only a two year LSA with over 25 discipline reports against her in her permanent record! That's a fact, I saw the paperwork myself with my own eyes after having a conference with the crew base manager about not being offered opportunities other than being an LSA with the company.

I have always felt that The Carter/Clinton Administrations made a very bad move by cutting the Flordian, Lone Star, North Coast Hiawahta, Pioneer and the Wind. These were trains that had the Potential to open up markets for Amtrak. I have felt that Amtrak needs to do a mass cleaning house to get rite of the Corrupt people and bring in people who will hire the right people not there friends but people who will do a good job to provide a service for the American People. Personally I do truly support Passenger Rail and hope for the best but I am sorry to say I truly think Amtrak Dead and a new company will prorably be formed with Corridor Services only. Personally I'm tired of the poor Customer Service which I have seen enough of on my travles that was demonstracted when the Metor was stuck in GA for 24 Hours, The Company has shown nothing on the way of improvments expect for some Capital Projects. I am sorry to say I think this company is gone at the end of the year.

 

[AlanB]

I can't think of any federal program that is run by people who have no concept of the business they operate other than Amtrak. My greatest example is that of the On-board Service Manager in New Orleans. She got her job because she was the babysitter of the Southern Region's Superintendent, has only a high school diploma and beat out an individual who had a master's degree and business adminstration with a hospitality minor. That, ladies and gentlement, regardless of how much money you throw at it will fail because it is run by incompotent and ignorant people.

You can't? :unsure:

Need I mention FEMA's recent director, Mr. Brown. And of course even as we type these posts, there are on going investigations into the spending habits of FEMA.

Believe me, this problem is not unique to Amtrak. It exists in the real world too, that outside the Fed. Go check out you local JC Penny. I can bet that at least 1 manager in that store has a job, not because of his/her skill set, but because they knew someone. I know, I used to work for the company years ago. My store had two.

Now perhaps Amtrak is worse than other agencies at the Fed, but it's certainly not unique.

Please don't misundertand, I'm not suggesting that you are wrong. That this isn't part of Amtrak's problem. I have no doubt that it is, and I've heard other similar stories from other's who work for Amtrak that I know.

But again, while it may well end up killing Amtrak, this is not a problem that is unique to Amtrak.

 

[trainboy325]

When I wrote this post, I didn't know how to put into words what I was thinking along the lines of poor employees. When you look at this fact in the pure sense of the executive service level of management throughout the federal bureaucracy, of course every agency has it sense of "political patronage" or cronyism, whatever you want to call it.

Alan, your right that blaming poor employees is not THE reason why Amtrak is a failing as a whole. I guess my reasons for saying the lack of quality human resources is a fundamental Amtrak issue is because JCPenny's is a private business and NRPC is a government corporation. The failures of JCPenny to hire competent employees to operate its business effectively falls ultemately upon the company's shareholders to bare the loss. When it comes to Amtrak failing to be effective in its operation due to poor human resource capital, the loss falls on every American, regardless of whether they support and dislike Amtrak, because the company spends millions of dollars in federal funds determined by its poor management corps.

Like in your comparison, the failures of FEMA's executive corps, its front line employees and their significant failure during Katrina caused those who were not qualified to be remove and disciplined for their lack of effective service. The difference though is that after years of making decisions that have caused unnecessary job loss, contract abuses, receiving payments of salary for duties not served, etc., not much different then their FEMA counterparts of the past, they have never been threatened to loose their jobs or have been fired because of their own catastrophic failure to do their duties properly. Ironically, it it those in Amtrak's employment ranks that contribute to the success of Amtrak's viability as a beneficial government service are those who are under attack and have lost their jobs: front line labor, and specifically, David Gunn, the most effective CEO to bring order and respect to the company in years in the eyes of Congress.

 

[RailFanNebraska]

if things were to stay the same, running trains on freight lines, these are what needs to happen

Dear God PLEASE, ask David Gunn to come back, then appoint him a board of directors that know and want to run a good railroad. We need a good and strong leadership that is going to clean house at the NRPC.

Then we need to deal with labor, Amtrak is simply just going to have to hire its own workers at rates it can afford. not just the engineers and conductors.

Congress needs to tell the FRA to stick it where the sun dont shine and give Amtrak more alltonomy from the government (i probably spelled that wrong).

Amtrak's Budget needs to be increased to 4 to 5 billion a year, let me remind you that this is just 16 to 20 dollars per american per year.

Capital improvement need to be made with these money mentioned previously.

A plan like this would have the backing of the american tax payer, according to a recient gallup poll, 55% of americans would support and increased subsidy for amtrak, 75% would support just keeping it the same.

Congress needs to stop demanding that Amtrak make a profit, its not going to make a profit, but with these improvements it might pretty close, if ridership levels were to increase. Amtrak should ahve a ridership goal of 33 million by 2010.