Bringing back the Pioneer and North Coast Hiawatha?

[Anderson]

I've been mulling over the LAX-LAV market a bit. I'm pretty sure there's a market there (profitable or not, I don't know, but the auto and air markets are big enough that I'd think you could poach some market share pretty easily...especially with CA's gas taxes), but I'm also convinced there's an "upmarket" you can go after that you'd have to get a DW going to snag: If LA-Las Vegas is going to be a 5-7 hour trip, I think you need at least one train per day that offers something a little better than a microwave meatball sub to eat. I'll grant that you could get away with something like the Cafe Acela (or perhaps the Surfliner's menu), but you need something better than the NE Regional Cafe.

What I would propose would be three daily trains: A DW and one or two "Las Vegas Limiteds" (or something like that) timed differently. The DW would be the "premium" train on the route (complete with a dining car the whole way) and would get the most marketable timing that could be managed in conjunction with the larger LAX-SLC run. It would drop about half of its consist in Vegas (all either coaches or some variant on Custom Class from the old NE Regionals). The LVL would fill in the gap on the schedule, feature perhaps an "enhanced cafe" service pf some kind, and only run LAX-LAV.

By the way, yes, you would have multiple classes on each train. I think this is somewhat unique to Vegas, but you've got two markets that you're shooting for here aside from sleepers: One going for a quick gambling trip that wants to get from A to B as (reasonably) inexpensively as possible and with the least hassle, and another group that is going to Vegas for a nice weekend and splurging. One is going to go for the cheapest fare they can find that is reasonably comfortable and hassle-free; the other may not be going for a sleeper all the way, but they're certainly not looking to spend six hours on a "tracked bus".

 

[MeisterEric]

For trains going thru Nevada, perhaps Amtrak could add a "Gambling" car to the train...i.e. a few slot machines and a couple of card tables....

have the car only available during the train's run thru Nevada......

:hi:

 

[GlobalistPotato]

Anyone who thinks that additional long distance routes will be restored/added by Amtrak is a dreamer. With the current mentality in Washington, we will be lucky to keep what we currently have. No capital funds have been appropriated for new Western long distance equipment and the current equipment is getting older and more worn each day.

I never say it would! :giggle: Of course there's gonna have to be a change in leadership of both parties if there's any improvement in our transportation system, let alone trains.

I've been mulling over the LAX-LAV market a bit. I'm pretty sure there's a market there (profitable or not, I don't know, but the auto and air markets are big enough that I'd think you could poach some market share pretty easily...especially with CA's gas taxes), but I'm also convinced there's an "upmarket" you can go after that you'd have to get a DW going to snag: If LA-Las Vegas is going to be a 5-7 hour trip, I think you need at least one train per day that offers something a little better than a microwave meatball sub to eat. I'll grant that you could get away with something like the Cafe Acela (or perhaps the Surfliner's menu), but you need something better than the NE Regional Cafe.

What I would propose would be three daily trains: A DW and one or two "Las Vegas Limiteds" (or something like that) timed differently. The DW would be the "premium" train on the route (complete with a dining car the whole way) and would get the most marketable timing that could be managed in conjunction with the larger LAX-SLC run. It would drop about half of its consist in Vegas (all either coaches or some variant on Custom Class from the old NE Regionals). The LVL would fill in the gap on the schedule, feature perhaps an "enhanced cafe" service pf some kind, and only run LAX-LAV.

By the way, yes, you would have multiple classes on each train. I think this is somewhat unique to Vegas, but you've got two markets that you're shooting for here aside from sleepers: One going for a quick gambling trip that wants to get from A to B as (reasonably) inexpensively as possible and with the least hassle, and another group that is going to Vegas for a nice weekend and splurging. One is going to go for the cheapest fare they can find that is reasonably comfortable and hassle-free; the other may not be going for a sleeper all the way, but they're certainly not looking to spend six hours on a "tracked bus".

Yeah. Good idea. That's the sort of "corridor service" I was thinking of between LAX and LAV.

For trains going thru Nevada, perhaps Amtrak could add a "Gambling" car to the train...i.e. a few slot machines and a couple of card tables....

have the car only available during the train's run thru Nevada......

:hi:

I've heard that idea a lot from private proposals for a LAX-LAV train.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Of course there's gonna have to be a change in leadership of both parties if there's any improvement in our transportation system, let alone trains.

I sure hope we can replace Obama with a pro-rail president as I'm quite sick of his anti-rail rhetoric.

 

[GlobalistPotato]

Of course there's gonna have to be a change in leadership of both parties if there's any improvement in our transportation system, let alone trains.

I sure hope we can replace Obama with a pro-rail president as I'm quite sick of his anti-rail rhetoric.

Oh, it isn't that - it's that he's fueling his opponents arguments aganist rail, particularly the "we're broke and we can't afford it" argument. Why is that? Because he's been continuing the wars (and launching another one in Libya), and those are taking away any money that could be used for passenger rail.

That and I don't think he/USDOT managed his support for HSR proposals very well - mainly because of the fact that the conventional rail projects in Ohio and Wisconsin were branded as "high-speed rail".

I mean, sure... if Obama and the Democrats were the only ones in power, then the projects in Ohio, Wisconsin and Florida would be alright. But we don't live in that world.

 

[NY Penn]

In my opinion, the Pioneer has to serve an unserved market, and have good departure and arrival scheduling.

My proposal for a revived Pioneer has the train running from PDX (with a possible extension to SEA) to SAS, making stops in these major cities (minor cities are too numerous to list):

S-B........N-B........Station

8 PM.......10 AM.....Portland, OR

11 PM......7 AM......Pendleton, OR

7 AM.......11 PM.....Boise, ID

2 PM.......4 PM......Ogden, UT

12 AM......6 AM......Cheyenne, WY (2-hour layover SB)

8 AM.......10 PM.....Denver, CO (3-hour layover SB)(3-hour layover NB)

10 AM......5 PM......Colorado Springs, CO

2 PM.......1 PM......Trinidad, CO

9 PM.......6 AM......Amarillo, TX (1-hour layover SB)

5 AM.......10 PM.....Wichita Falls, TX

9 AM.......7 PM......Fort Worth (1-hour layover SB)

12 PM......4 PM......Dallas

4 PM.......11 AM.....Houston

 

[GlobalistPotato]

In my opinion, the Pioneer has to serve an unserved market, and have good departure and arrival scheduling.

My proposal for a revived Pioneer has the train running from PDX (with a possible extension to SEA) to SAS, making stops in these major cities (minor cities are too numerous to list):

S-B........N-B........Station

8 PM.......10 AM.....Portland, OR

11 PM......7 AM......Pendleton, OR

7 AM.......11 PM.....Boise, ID

2 PM.......4 PM......Ogden, UT

12 AM......6 AM......Cheyenne, WY (2-hour layover SB)

8 AM.......10 PM.....Denver, CO (3-hour layover SB)(3-hour layover NB)

10 AM......5 PM......Colorado Springs, CO

2 PM.......1 PM......Trinidad, CO

9 PM.......6 AM......Amarillo, TX (1-hour layover SB)

5 AM.......10 PM.....Wichita Falls, TX

9 AM.......7 PM......Fort Worth (1-hour layover SB)

12 PM......4 PM......Dallas

4 PM.......11 AM.....Houston

That would work out pretty good if it's going through WY. I actually like it.

Personally, I'd like the Pioneer to run with the CZ between DEN and SLC, but that'd require the Pioneer to serve Idaho and Amarillo in the middle of the night. Plus, the CZ would have to arrive at DEN at 9-10am instead of 7-8am going WB. Still, your plan has some pretty good timings and all transfer points have connections (except for DEN/CZ).

So what to do about no connections with the CZ at DEN? Have part of the Pioneer run between DEN and CHI - making another DEN-CHI train. However, the EB train would have to lay over 3 hours in DEN (as you listed) so that Chicago gets a 6:30 am arrival.

 

[NY Penn]

I don't really understand what you mean, GlobalistPotato.

Southbound, the Pioneer sits in Denver from 5 to 8 AM (during which time the CZ is supposed to pass through going toward California). In the opposite direction, the Pioneer sits in Denver from 7 to 10 PM (during which time the CZ passes through toward Chicago). Although it would be better for the connections to be reversed (southbound Pioneer connects with eastbound Zephyr), that would lead to worse scheduling (as it is now, Portland-Boise and Portland-Ft Worth riders have evening departures and morning arrivals (good for business travelers)). If morning departures and evening arrivals are not an issue, then it would not be a problem to switch the schedule to something like this:

S-B........N-B.......Station

8 AM.......10 PM.....Portland, OR

11 AM......7 PM......Pendleton, OR

7 PM.......11 AM.....Boise, ID

2 AM.......4 AM......Ogden, UT

12 PM......6 PM......Cheyenne, WY (2-hour layover SB)

8 PM.......10 AM.....Denver, CO (3-hour layover SB)(3-hour layover NB)

10 PM......5 AM......Colorado Springs, CO

2 AM.......1 AM......Trinidad, CO

9 AM.......6 PM......Amarillo, TX (1-hour layover SB)

5 PM.......10 AM.....Wichita Falls, TX

8 PM.......7 AM......Fort Worth

1 AM.......4 AM......Dallas (2-hour layover SB)

6 AM.......10 PM.....Houston

This allows room for a late CZ and also permits SLC-DEN travel with the CZ (or even through cars to Chicago). In addition, this schedule gives Portland-Boise a day train.

If warranted, both schedules could be implemented :giggle: , with trains running 12 hours apart, instead of 24.

 

[NY Penn]

Sorry for the double post.

Would it be totally ridiculous for the Desert Wind to go LAX-SLC-Helena-via EB to CHI? This could be in conjunction with an EB reroute via the old NCH, if that route is determined to have higher ridership

.

 

[Todd]

How about Winnepeg to Chicago or Bismark to Chicago? That adds a frequency to Chicago Minneapolis and improves service to oil booming North Dakota A later extension into Montana creating a 24 hr late evening departure from Missoula. Rather than traditional sleepers, a lie flat first class like they have on international airline flights and a simple dinette lounge. It could work.

 

[neroden]

Border crossing paranoia and insanity since 9/11 (Bush & Obama & Harper in Canada have all colluded in this) have made it really problematic to try to run any cross-border service. The three existing services have enough trouble. I don't think Winnipeg-to-US service could get started until we, as a country, relax about our borders. (Remember, all the 9/11 hijackers entered legally; none of this stuff would have stopped any of them.)

I'd ride Bismarck to Chicago (I have a friend in Bismarck). However, when BNSF came up with the cost numbers for reinstating the North Coast Hiawatha, the Montana part was actually the cheaper part, and it was the eastern part of North Dakota where they wanted huge amounts of money -- because there's a lot of freight traffic there.

So, in money terms, it would be easier to reinstate Spokane to Billings than Bismarck to Chicago. :-( Unfortunately, Spokane to Billings isn't that useful, because even in Montana, most people are heading east, not west.

 

[WICT106]

I will second a Winnipeg - Chicago route, acting as an additional train along the Builder's route through MN & WI. I also realize that the border crossing and customs inspections, as currently performed, would create hassles.

As for the return of the North Coast Hi, I think I'd have it act as an additional train along the ND - CHI route, only to cut over to the ex-NP at Snowdon, MT, and rejoining the route at the western border of the State.

 

[railiner]

For trains going thru Nevada, perhaps Amtrak could add a "Gambling" car to the train...i.e. a few slot machines and a couple of card tables....

have the car only available during the train's run thru Nevada......

Or they could dig out the old bingo machines that used to be used on the old Florida Special....although not sure if Amtrak ever did use those like the Seaboard Coastline did...

Edit: Just to be clear...it wasn't 'gambling' then, as the cards were free, and the 'prizes' were promotional merchandise donated by vendors, in that case...