Brightline Trains Florida discussion

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
The news I have been dreaming about...

A long while back on this thread there were links to architectural diagrams of the SR528 segment. Those links are dead. Does anyone know links for the architectural schematics for this segment are? Its fascinating and I cant wait to see real progress
 
This topic aught to be broken up into three - one until Miami to WPB construction is finished (at which point it will die), one on Brightline operating issues and one on development of the Orlando segment.
 
Their Facebook post last week said limited service between West Palm and Fort Lauderdale is planned (with an emphasis on planned) to start by the end of December. Should start simulated testing next week for two weeks, and if the stars allign the FRA will give the okay.
 
Along with many another at railroad discussion forums, I have followed this saga of All Aboard Florida/Brightline.

I'm not "per se" opposed to this initiative, and even though there are tangible things - shops, rolling stock, and tracks - in place to suggest this initiative will move forth, I remain skeptical.

At first, I held the initiative was a ploy to "fatten the steer" for a sale of the railroad to the State. With the "heap big wampum" the State has invested in maritime ports, particularly the Port of Miami, the State would be a party in interest to assure the FEC would remain an open "gateway" handling the Port's traffic for interchange at JAX to either NS or CSX. I based this assumption knowing that the FEC was "taken private" by FEC Industries with a leveraged buyout. As with any leveraged transaction, if the "going is good" the return on investment is magnified, but if "not so good"; look out!

Public disclosure of FEC Financial Statements is spotty, but 2010 Statements showed the railroad with Operating Income but a Loss after debt service. As the recovery has moved forth subsequent years have surely shown an improvement.

I now readily concede that I was mistaken regarding sale of the FEC to the State. However, both FEC Industries, of which AAF is a subsidiary, and the Railway have been sold to separate foreign interests - Industries to Japanese; Railway to Mexican.

By now, all parties know that substantial outside financing - as in the B's - will be needed to complete the project. Such financing is hardly a "done deal". While the municipalities to the North along the so-called Treasure and Space Coasts, have had little success in the Judiciary blocking the project, thirty two additional trains moving through at 100mph will represent a public nuisance - someone, regardless of how negligent, will get "taken out" at an X-ing. That is a given. There are no plans to provide service to any of these municipalities - the cry "public nuisance without public benefit" will be heard.

The inauguration date continues to be pushed back. True, they were talking about "this year" for their trial Ft Lauderdale-West Palm service, there are only now 28 days left to meet that target. Bet's anyone?

But the biggest new hurdle to me is the sale of Industries/AAF to Japanese and Railway to Mexican. Industries has other things "on the plate" namely how to invest the proceeds from the sale of the railroad. The railroad is in one set of hands and AAF is in another. This becomes analogous to the Amtrak/Class I clash of interests - and AAF has no Federal mandate in a lawful requirement to provide access on which to hang its hat.

No question whatever, the redevelopment of the FEC property at "First and First" is moving ahead with Miami Central complete with rail access. The inaugural service of a Miami-West Palm "Super Shuttle" could well start next year, but really volks, anybody give that a prayer of financial success?

I hold that the full Miami-McCoy (MCO; Orlando Airport) chance of completion is quite nil.
 
Depends on how you define financial success. If you are talking about a net profit over a reasonable recovery time including all capital and operating expenses, but no ancillary income relating to real estate development or such, you right, damned skippy.

If you are talking direct operating the trains profit, I am unsure.

But include the rest of the venture? The real estate development, and that stuff. Its been nearly a hundred years since Groucho, Harpo, Chico, and Zeppo lampooned the land swindle that is Florida. And guess what? Plenty of people, even some that are otherwise very intelligent, keep moving to that god forsaken uninhabitable sand spit.

I think all things added up, they are going to do just fine.
 
Mr. Lion, Miami Central WILL do just fine - with or without AAF.

Should AAF be limited to a sure-to-fail Miami-West Palm "Super Shuttle", the rail access remains and could easily handle Tri-Rail (also Amtrak; but don't bet on that one) by building a connecting track through the NE quadrant of Iris X-ing, and that's in a low rent industrial neighborhood. I can't think of anything that would be more of a "shot in the arm to their ridership.
 
The NE connection at Iris is a done deal, and was recently completed. The only thing holding up Tri-Rail is installing compliant PTC on their equipment and (of course) completion of MiamiCentral. I do also agree that we'll likely never see Amtrak on the FEC (at least south of West Palm).

I was walking around downtown West Palm Beach last night, and of course walked by the Brightline station (you can walk right up to the glass now, but of course can't go inside). It really struck me how convenient the station is to the heart of the city. While the WPB to Miami "super shuttle" might not be a smashing success (and WPB to Fort Lauderdale even less so), I do eagerly await Orlando as I think it will be a huge draw for both Brightline (or whatever service takes its place) and the city.
 
Thanks Mr. Crs, for the update on the Iris X-ing. To me it appears Tri Rail has simply limped along through its 28 year life - not a loser like the Nashville train, but simply not a "breakthrough".

Serving Downtown Miami could be the game changer.

There is one thing that concerns me; and that is having to answer why was the station at the Airport built if the intent was to serve Downtown Miami and a bus transfer from Metro Transfer would have worked just as well?

To offer off peak hourly service to BOTH the Airport and Downtown would simply be "overservice"; for that matter, so would to offer service along the FEC/Brightline. While the decision made over thirty years ago to route Tri Rail over the SAL (Amtrak) could well have been faulty, it was the decision from which there is "no turning back".
 
Thanks Mr. Crs, for the update on the Iris X-ing. To me it appears Tri Rail has simply limped along through its 28 year life - not a loser like the Nashville train, but simply not a "breakthrough".

Serving Downtown Miami could be the game changer.

There is one thing that concerns me; and that is having to answer why was the station at the Airport built if the intent was to serve Downtown Miami and a bus transfer from Metro Transfer would have worked just as well?

To offer off peak hourly service to BOTH the Airport and Downtown would simply be "overservice"; for that matter, so would to offer service along the FEC/Brightline. While the decision made over thirty years ago to route Tri Rail over the SAL (Amtrak) could well have been faulty, it was the decision from which there is "no turning back".
I don't know why, but maybe part of the problem was that FEC owned the ROW and wouldn't let Tri Rail run into downtown.

On the other hand, seeing the site of the downtown station was retained intact over all these years and never parcelled out or built on, does suggest that there was some plan in the background that allowed for at least the possibility of passenger trains of some description returning to the site.

Does anybody know?
 
But the biggest new hurdle to me is the sale of Industries/AAF to Japanese and Railway to Mexican. Industries has other things "on the plate" namely how to invest the proceeds from the sale of the railroad. The railroad is in one set of hands and AAF is in another. This becomes analogous to the Amtrak/Class I clash of interests - and AAF has no Federal mandate in a lawful requirement to provide access on which to hang its hat.
For what it is worth, I had a chat with the CEO of AAF about this matter. According to what he explained, AAF's rights are substantially protected in the contract that exists between FECR and AAF.

Unlike the situation between Amtrak and the Class Is, FECR does not dispatch the railroad in question any more. There is an AAF/FECR 50/50 jointly owned subsidiary - Florida Dispatching Company, which is in charge of all dispatching on both FECR property and on the new AAF property under construction in Phase II. I was shown extensive plans with full simulation of path diagrams for mixed freight and passenger operation and contingency plans for those times when things break down. I have never seen anything like that even from Amtrak for their owned properties on the NEC.

However, the proof of the pudding as always in eating it, so we will see. But I just wanted to point out that certain assumptions being made here are at variance with reality.

Also the only County that constitutes the "Space Coast" - Brevard County, is in active negotiation with AAF for construction of a station at a site that has been selected in Cocoa/Rockledge, with construction to begin soon after introduction of service to Orlando. So to claim that the County is opposed to AAF is at variance with known facts. Are there a few NIMBYs? Of course there are, specially in the sticks in the deep south part of the county adjacent to Indian River County, where there is significant opposition from even some county officials. The main State level opposer is in the State Senate in the form of Debbie Maynard of Vero Beach, part of whose district includes southern Brevard County too.

Those who are really interested in learning more should join the FECR Society. Their meetings and newsletters provide a treasure trove of quite reliable information both on FECR and AAF. All that one sees in the press is marketing fluff and NIMBY posturing mostly with next to zero technical content by which to judge the viability or lack thereof.

I don't know why, but maybe part of the problem was that FEC owned the ROW and wouldn't let Tri Rail run into downtown.

On the other hand, seeing the site of the downtown station was retained intact over all these years and never parcelled out or built on, does suggest that there was some plan in the background that allowed for at least the possibility of passenger trains of some description returning to the site.

Does anybody know?
There was no station and no one willing to fund construction of it at that site until the Fortress Group decided that they needed to boost returns from all the downtown property that they own.

Running a service from the FECR to anywhere in Miami would have required much greater amount of public funding and access to a lot of property owned by the FEC even to construct other stations on the route. FECR or its then owners were unwilling to make such available at any reasonable rate. Hence what was built was long the CSX route which eventually CSX was willing to sell off.

It should be noted that AAF and FECR have stated to the County Transportation Planners in Miami-Dade and Broward Counties that if a local service is developed on the FECR property in those two counties, AAF intends to do so before they will let anyone else in. So I doubt that any TriRail will run south of West Palm Beach and north of Miami Central, on FECR property for quite a while yet. Apparently the contract between FECR and AAF gives AAF the first right of refusal for running passenger service on FECR.

The various FEC related outfits, Fortress Group as its latest umbrella incarnation, is about real estate and transportation following the Flagler tradition. I don't think they necessarily knew what they were going to do with the downtown site until they decided to use it for a joint real estate/transportation development. Part of it would have continued to host the link to the Harbor, irrespective of what real estate development they chose for it. I am not sure anyone has systematically recorded what their internal decision making process was. But when they hired Gene Skorpowski it became obvious they were quite serious about rail passenger service.

Incidentally, I had a long chat will Gene at the RPA meeting in Chicago. He had several interesting insights to share, which would probably not be appropriate to discuss in a public forum.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Last edited by a moderator:
Some more from Brightline:

https://www.facebook.com/GoBrightline/photos/a.1484552041850660.1073741827.1484550728517458/1756683537970841/?type=3&theater

A small fair quote from Jim Kovalsky of FECRS:

ABOUT BRIGHTLINE SERVICE:

PLEASE READ BELOW.

You've been seeing posts that say Brightline is "starting service". This does NOT MEAN they are carrying passengers yet. At the same time this all part of the process of getting the service running. ALL of these steps must be completed, and they must be completed in order. Every single step is a milestone towards the goal.

As we've seen over the last couple of years, starting a brand new express passenger service is a complicated endeavor, especially when your opponents resort to fear tactics and outright lies in an attempt stop you.

What I understand is that over the next couple of weeks you will see Brightline trains running a regular schedule between West Palm and Fort Lauderdale -- but they are not yet open for business. The system has to be proven -- everyone needs practice integrating all of the final pieces together BEFORE passengers are onboard.

. . . . .
You can see his entire post on the FECRS page on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/groups/fecrailway/
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Keeping my fingers crossed on this...it looks like I may have an unplanned trip to South Florida in my future. I actually got to snap a picture of one of the trains down in Boca last month.

I know the plan was to open Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach first and then add Miami-Fort Lauderdale sometime (presumably not too long) thereafter...but that was before the unexpected delay (I think we're at about five months?) at the end of the summer. Is there any discussion as to when service into Miami is likely to start?
 
Keeping my fingers crossed on this...it looks like I may have an unplanned trip to South Florida in my future. I actually got to snap a picture of one of the trains down in Boca last month.

I know the plan was to open Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach first and then add Miami-Fort Lauderdale sometime (presumably not too long) thereafter...but that was before the unexpected delay (I think we're at about five months?) at the end of the summer. Is there any discussion as to when service into Miami is likely to start?
No announcment that i am aware of.

And I guess Brightline are playing it cautiously. Nothing worse than trumpeting an opening date and building expectation and then having to backtrack because there is some minor issue holding it up. The naysayers are going to pounce on stories like that and embellish them for all they're worth as it gives credence to their narrative that Brightline is riddled with problems and is going to be an expensive and disruptive white elephant.
 
Saw the train going by the other day at the Palmetto Park crossing in Boca!

Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum
 
Can't wait to visit Florida again and hop on this train. I hope by then that Amtrak has reopened the line New Orleans-Orlando again. That would be nice.
 
The article's phrasing was odd...it sounded like they got approved to apply for a loan.
Maybe they did. i guess applying for such a loan involves jumping through muliple hoops, each one of which is an approval for the next.

And as long as Brightline don't actually have that cash in their hand, it is theoretically possible that there will be some snag and they won't get it. But with every hurdle they clear that probability diminishes.

It's a bit like negotiating with the bank to get a mortgage to purchase a property. They set multiple requirements you have to flufil and documents you have to produce. And with every box you tick that loan becomes more tangible. But nothing is given 100% until the day they actually give it to you.
 
Meanwhile they also got approval to sell another one point something billion worth of bonds. For the first tranche of $600 million that they sold, the issue was oversubscribed by a factor of three or so and they got a price better than they had anticipated!

Meanwhile, construction has already started along the Beachline Expressway (State Rte 528). Exits are being built now with flyovers across the AAF ROW, and some water management structures work has been making progress. Actual construction of trackage will being in 1Q2018.

The Terminal C parking Lot adjacent to the Brightline Station at Orlando Airport seems to be on the verge of being put into service together with the APM connecting Terminal C to Terminal A/B. That will ease the parking space crunch at OIA considerably.
 
Meanwhile they also got approval to sell another one point something billion worth of bonds. For the first tranche of $600 million that they sold, the issue was oversubscribed by a factor of three or so and they got a price better than they had anticipated!

Meanwhile, construction has already started along the Beachline Expressway (State Rte 528). Exits are being built now with flyovers across the AAF ROW, and some water management structures work has been making progress. Actual construction of trackage will being in 1Q2018.

The Terminal C parking Lot adjacent to the Brightline Station at Orlando Airport seems to be on the verge of being put into service together with the APM connecting Terminal C to Terminal A/B. That will ease the parking space crunch at OIA considerably.
They haven't received approval from FDFC yet for the remaining portion of the $1.75B allocation that FDFC gave them back in August 2015. In fact the emergency meeting that was to be held today in Jacksonville by the FDFC board was cancelled at AAF's request. Mike Reininger has said in the past that AAF plans on using several sources of funding. So I can see them applying for a RRIF loan and selling more PABs. RRIF will carry a lower interest rate and probably more favorable terms. However, not sure if the FRA has officially re-allocated the $1.15B back to AAF yet.

Yes, the PAB sale was oversold by 3.77X and resulted in a reduction of the interest rate from 5.875% to 5.625%.

I was at the Orlando airport yesterday and used the new parking garage and APM. I believe it opened right before Thanksgiving. I didn't see any activity by AAF, but did spot what I believe will be Brightline's main entrance on level C5 in the beautiful new main hall. It is huge (50ft ceiling and several hundred feet long) and will be extended west to connect with the new Terminal C which is to open in 2020. Parking was very easy. It works well for me as I use SR417 and enter the airport from the south.
 
Pictures of the new ITF and APM. Last picture is where I think the Brightline entrance will be, behind the blank overhead sign at what is now a big empty wall which will lead to their check-in and waiting areas. It appears there is also a level C4 they can use as well. The APM does not have level C4, only C3, which is the track level for both AAF and the APM.

20171217_145639_resized-2.jpg

20171217_145503_resized-2.jpg

20171217_145525_resized-2.jpg

20171217_145728_resized.jpg

20171217_145147_resized-2.jpg

20171217_150706_resized.jpg

20171217_150220_resized-2.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top