County supports Amtrak service, backs stop in Pueblo
http://www.chieftain.com/news/1943588-120/amtrak-pueblo-colorado-county
http://www.chieftain.com/news/1943588-120/amtrak-pueblo-colorado-county
Back on the Southwest Chief Re-route Topic
- Thread starter TinCan782
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Notelvis
Conductor
Serving Pueblo would add a significant dogleg to the route....... LaJunta northwestward for about 60 miles and then directly southward back to Trinidad for what, another 75 or 80 more miles. That would lengthen the existing Southwest Chief route by nearly 100 miles if I'm not mistaken.
I'll peg the chances of the Southwest Chief remaining on it's existing route at less than 10%.
I'll put the chances of remaining on it's existing route but adding the dogleg to Pueblo at less than 1%.
I'll peg the chances of the Southwest Chief remaining on it's existing route at less than 10%.
I'll put the chances of remaining on it's existing route but adding the dogleg to Pueblo at less than 1%.
Yes, I agree with that assessment. Became apparent after I checked a map!
You are right. The SWC will never serve Pueblo except as a "political solution". As regular SWC rider who lives in Colorado Springs it makes more sense for me to drive thru Trinidad and get on and off in Raton (going and coming from California). As a railfan I like to ride over the Pass (but I am satisfied by doing this at most twice/yr). Coming back last Sunday I got off in Raton a little before 5 and was back home a little after 7. If I had stayed on the train to Trinidad I would have gotten home at least 40 min later. If the train went to Pueblo and I stayed on I couldn't get home before 10. I will drive, thanks. This is the same reason why a back-up move to Albuquerque from the transcon will delay thru riders and be of little use to locals. It took us 23 min Sunday from the mainline to ABQ and the reroute dogleg with wyeing the train would take more than double that. A local's 10 min drive to Belen to board and the desire to not wait around when he returns means he will use his car for the short haul. Visitors and locals who can't or don't drive will vote with their feet for a 10 min shuttle vs. a 2 and have times longer stay on the train. Railfans excepted. While going over Raton is a railfan pleasure to be enjoyed again and again over the years the ride up and back from Belen is not.
From a travel blog
Many Reasons to Save Amtrak's Southwest Chief.
Amtrak's long distance trains have been under rather continuous attack for a long time. Usually it comes from public officials who object to the fact that these passenger trains receive a modest federal subsidy. So far, passenger rail advocates like NARP, the National Association of Railroad Passengers, has managed to fend off efforts in Congress to fend off efforts to weaken or even kill Amtrak.
But now a number of towns and cities along the route of Amtrak's Southwest Chief are facing the very real possibility that they will lose their daily train service. The problem is a stretch of track owned by BNSF running for roughly 200 miles through parts of Kansas, Colorado and New Mexico. The condition of that track has deteriorated and the Chief has to reduce speed while passing over it. And that causes problems with the Chief's schedule and will eventually affect ridership.
The problem is simple: No one wants to pay to upgrade the condition of that stretch of track, estimated at something like $200 million. BNSF doesn't run a lot of freights over that track and their trains run at slower speeds anyway. And God knows Amtrak hasn't got that kind of money. State and local governments are strapped, too.
But unless someone takes ownership of the problem, there appears to be only two "solutions". The first would be to re-route the train, which would mean by-passing a number of cities and towns, including Lamy, New Mexico, which is the stop serving Santa Fe, the state capital. The other would be to simply terminate the Chief altogether.
NARP and similar organizations working at the state level have launched a campaign to alert and rally the public in affected cities along those 200 miles. Happily, local governments and civic organizations such as the Chambers of Commerce have responded. That train is a lifeline for their communities, in many cases the only public transportation available to their citizens. They want and need that train. And they will fight to keep it.
The Chairman of NARP's board of directors, Bob Stewart, was recently in Garden City, Kansas, one of the cities that would be affected should the Chief be re-routed or terminated. While there, he was approached by representatives of the local hospital who told him that frequently they refer patients to bigger, more sophisticated medical facilities in cities like Kansas City or Chicago. And these people travel there on the Southwest Chief! One more reason of many why Amtrak's long distance network must be maintained. And, in a rational if ideal world, expanded.
In the meantime, the Southwest Chief continues to run once a day in each direction between Chicago and Los Angeles, following the route of the famous Super Chief. For many miles, the original Santa Fe Trail is clearly visible from the train. Allowing the Southwest Chief, guardian of that heritage, to cease its daily run should be unthinkable.
Many Reasons to Save Amtrak's Southwest Chief.
Amtrak's long distance trains have been under rather continuous attack for a long time. Usually it comes from public officials who object to the fact that these passenger trains receive a modest federal subsidy. So far, passenger rail advocates like NARP, the National Association of Railroad Passengers, has managed to fend off efforts in Congress to fend off efforts to weaken or even kill Amtrak.
But now a number of towns and cities along the route of Amtrak's Southwest Chief are facing the very real possibility that they will lose their daily train service. The problem is a stretch of track owned by BNSF running for roughly 200 miles through parts of Kansas, Colorado and New Mexico. The condition of that track has deteriorated and the Chief has to reduce speed while passing over it. And that causes problems with the Chief's schedule and will eventually affect ridership.
The problem is simple: No one wants to pay to upgrade the condition of that stretch of track, estimated at something like $200 million. BNSF doesn't run a lot of freights over that track and their trains run at slower speeds anyway. And God knows Amtrak hasn't got that kind of money. State and local governments are strapped, too.
But unless someone takes ownership of the problem, there appears to be only two "solutions". The first would be to re-route the train, which would mean by-passing a number of cities and towns, including Lamy, New Mexico, which is the stop serving Santa Fe, the state capital. The other would be to simply terminate the Chief altogether.
NARP and similar organizations working at the state level have launched a campaign to alert and rally the public in affected cities along those 200 miles. Happily, local governments and civic organizations such as the Chambers of Commerce have responded. That train is a lifeline for their communities, in many cases the only public transportation available to their citizens. They want and need that train. And they will fight to keep it.
The Chairman of NARP's board of directors, Bob Stewart, was recently in Garden City, Kansas, one of the cities that would be affected should the Chief be re-routed or terminated. While there, he was approached by representatives of the local hospital who told him that frequently they refer patients to bigger, more sophisticated medical facilities in cities like Kansas City or Chicago. And these people travel there on the Southwest Chief! One more reason of many why Amtrak's long distance network must be maintained. And, in a rational if ideal world, expanded.
In the meantime, the Southwest Chief continues to run once a day in each direction between Chicago and Los Angeles, following the route of the famous Super Chief. For many miles, the original Santa Fe Trail is clearly visible from the train. Allowing the Southwest Chief, guardian of that heritage, to cease its daily run should be unthinkable.
While I sympathize with the other towns, the Santa Fe issue isn't really a huge issue. Anyone going to Santa Fe can hop on the Rail Runner in ABQ. It runs several times per day.
Inconvenient, maybe, but you're still within reach of Santa Fe even with the reroute.
I will say that I'd miss the scenery, though. The Raton and Glorieta Passes are my favorite part of the trip.
Inconvenient, maybe, but you're still within reach of Santa Fe even with the reroute.
I will say that I'd miss the scenery, though. The Raton and Glorieta Passes are my favorite part of the trip.
Dave Van
Service Attendant
Agreed......I have taken the SWC a number of times. I love the trip itself. I don't fly, Don't want to drive it and the bus is not an option. I hope the SWC runs a bit longer. It's my only option for my 3000+ mile trip.
N
NAthaanel
Guest
If/when the Southwest Chief switches to the Transcon, it will continue to serve Albuquerque -- period.
There's no suitable station at Belen, there's no servicing at Belen, there's no passengers at Belen, and more passengers are getting off or on at Albuquerque than are travelling through Albuquerque. Amtrak remembers what happened when it lost Phoenix service. Finally, the train can get between Belen and Albuquerque faster than your car can, with a minimal amount of work (the RailRunner track needs some minor signals work to make this possible). If necessary perhaps the coaches will run backwards from ABQ to LAX; wyeing the locomotives alone, rather than the whole train, would take a total of zero extra minutes, as it could be done during the extremely long service stop time which the train currently spends at ABQ.
The route of the San Francisco Chief is a fine one, serving Wichita and Amarillo, and RailRunner will provide better connections to Santa Fe than the bus from Lamy did. However, the train has to go to Albuquerque for practical reasons and so it will.
The Raton Pass route is very valuable for north-south New Mexico-Colorado service, but unfortunately neither state government has been at all serious about provisioning such service. It's actually an awful route for east-west service, which the Santa Fe railroad figured out as early as 1902, and population trends (Amarillo bigger, Garden City not) have made it worse over the years.
The SWC will continue to run, just not on the current tracks. They would bypass western KS, CO, and northern NM, running instead from eastern KS, down to TX, and then over to NM by way of Amarillo to Belen. As Nathaneal pointed out, they would then run north to ABQ and back down to Belen to continue west to AZ.
N
Nathanael
Guest
To be honest, I'm totally guesstimating this from reports (maybe more people ride through). But the fact is that there's very large turnover at Albuquerque -- enough that Amtrak thinks it's reasonable to have the train cool its heels for an hour there. The train is practically operated as a LA-ABQ train and a Chicago-ABQ train with a very long break in between. This shows how unimportant the traffic crossing Albuquerque is -- or at least how *time-insensitive* it is. As a result, I don't think Amtrak will have any problem with going up to ABQ and back down.
From a standpoint of serving the most passengers, for the least amount of subsidy, I have to feel that a re-route through Amarillo is the best policy.
To best serve Pueblo Colorado find the means to restore a Colorado-Texas Zephyr (Denver-Pueblo-Amarillo-Dallas/Ft Worth-Houston-connecting to New Orleans). Anything less is waste of money. With enough popularity of service on that route there might be enough demand for a Pueblo-Alberquerque-(El Paso?) link for NM and CO to justify paying for it.
As a Nathanial noted a stub service to Alberquerque is very likely. Amtrak should strive to reach an agreement with RoadRunner to provide at a minimum through ticketed service to Sante Fe, with a through coach/sleeper even better.
There will be likely to be some sort of Thruway Bus service to serve stations displaced by the re-route. Amtrak should consider it important to provide baggage available to service the Boy Scouts going to the Philmont facility.
To best serve Pueblo Colorado find the means to restore a Colorado-Texas Zephyr (Denver-Pueblo-Amarillo-Dallas/Ft Worth-Houston-connecting to New Orleans). Anything less is waste of money. With enough popularity of service on that route there might be enough demand for a Pueblo-Alberquerque-(El Paso?) link for NM and CO to justify paying for it.
As a Nathanial noted a stub service to Alberquerque is very likely. Amtrak should strive to reach an agreement with RoadRunner to provide at a minimum through ticketed service to Sante Fe, with a through coach/sleeper even better.
There will be likely to be some sort of Thruway Bus service to serve stations displaced by the re-route. Amtrak should consider it important to provide baggage available to service the Boy Scouts going to the Philmont facility.
gn2276
Service Attendant
If the Chief is rerouted Alberquerque would not be used as a stop Belen would as going to Alberquerque would involve a 30 mile backup move.
Ryan
Court Jester
No it wouldn't, we've covered that a million times in a million different threads.
Nope. Plan would be to run it up to ABQ and wye it. What is your source for your statement?
Dave Van
Service Attendant
I do know for a fact that on my recent trip the passenger turnover at ABQ was huge.....lots of LA - ABQ traffic as well as ABQ - East passengers. The normal stop at ABQ was 45 minutes but both East and West trip this time were more like 30 minutes due to late running. But enough time to get off and buy me some Coca-Cola product as I tire of the Pepsi on board!! 
E
Eugene small
Guest
interesting note, just recent BNSF has announced it is redesigning its rail yard in Belen. So that could play havoc with everyones ideas Time will tell what the out come will be. I think the main concern will be with Amarillo, "will BNSF allow the chief to stop on the transcon". Also will Amtrak service on such a short platform as the old Santa Fe station? Will Amarillo have to build a new station that meets amtrak requirements?
N
Nathanael
Guest
Worth noting: NM's new draft state rail plan includes a line item for restoration of the Albuquerque wye in the event that the SW Chief gets rerouted. (This is not funded, but inclusion in the state rail plan is a prerequisite for getting funding under many federal programs.)
Service at Amarillo would require a new platform. Amarillo City Council, who would most likely own the platform, appear to be aware of that from what I can tell from newspaper articles. It might also require a siding track -- but there's plenty of room for one.
I'm not exactly sure what platform work would be required for service at Wichita.
Service at Amarillo would require a new platform. Amarillo City Council, who would most likely own the platform, appear to be aware of that from what I can tell from newspaper articles. It might also require a siding track -- but there's plenty of room for one.
I'm not exactly sure what platform work would be required for service at Wichita.
I could handle riding backwards between ABQ and Belen.....but all the way to LAX.....seriously? I don't think I would like that very much....
Ryan
Court Jester
No, not seriously. There's a wye right there that gets used when the train takes this route today.I could handle riding backwards between ABQ and Belen.....but all the way to LAX.....seriously? I don't think I would like that very much....
N
Nathanael
Guest
The wye would be brought up to higher-speed track standards and all the switches would be dispatcher-controlled. Still has the backup move, but it wouldn't be that slow.
If BNSF can handle the SWC on the Transcon west of ABQ, what are the issues on the section between Newton and ABQ? I know there are some choke points (Vauhgn, NW for example) but I thought BNSF has been working on addressing these. Also, the Transcon is primarily an intermodal railroad and I am sure the number of trains fluctuates monthly if not weekly based on demand. Having one more train, even a passenger train would not seem to be that much of a stretch to handle...you could even run at 70 to keep it at the same pace as the other intermodals.
Also, is the Union Pacific line from Topeka to Denver (the former route of the City of KC) still viable? You could run Chicago - KC on the BNSF, KC - Denver on the UP, connect at Denver w/the CZ (or run on the Overland route to SLC) and then run from SLC to LA on the UP. This would still provide a direct Chicago - LA train via KC and also include KC - Denver as a possible new market. You could also possible keep a LA - ABQ train given that market.
Also, is the Union Pacific line from Topeka to Denver (the former route of the City of KC) still viable? You could run Chicago - KC on the BNSF, KC - Denver on the UP, connect at Denver w/the CZ (or run on the Overland route to SLC) and then run from SLC to LA on the UP. This would still provide a direct Chicago - LA train via KC and also include KC - Denver as a possible new market. You could also possible keep a LA - ABQ train given that market.
Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe BNSF has officially stated what sort of work/improvements that would be required if the SWC were to be rerouted onto the Transcon. There are still a few single-track sections (in NM and KS, I believe). Station facilities would be the responsibility of the communities, rather than Amtrak.
As far as Topeka-Denver, Kansas gave that route a quick look in a study 10ish years ago. I believe that report is still on the KDOT website. I cannot recall what sort of times they projected.
As far as Topeka-Denver, Kansas gave that route a quick look in a study 10ish years ago. I believe that report is still on the KDOT website. I cannot recall what sort of times they projected.
dart330
OBS Chief
Here is a link to that Denver study on the KDOT website.
http://www.ksdot.org/burRail/rail/publications/krpt6_1.pdf
http://www.ksdot.org/burRail/rail/publications/krpt6_1.pdf
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