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OlympianHiawatha

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Time was, even in the early days of Amtrak Dining Car staff could not take oral orders and you had to fill out your own order form. But now they do it for you, even though the form is left at your table ( a few times I have filled in the little boxes and lines myself to save time for the server if the Diner is crowded).

My question is done anyone know all the history behind this tradition, and when it changed and why (I'm guessing changes in union rules)? Thanks!
 
I don't believe that it has anything to do with union rules. It's all about inventory control. If you fill in the wrong box or otherwise order something that you can't and it's not caught, then the LSA is on the hook for the mistake. He/she pays for the missing food.

So the change was done to ensure that the check is properly filled out and that inventory is properly accounted for.
 
I remember the practice well. I grew up with it. It was a joke in our family since my handwriting is one of the world's poorest.

I do not remember when it changed or why. I will see if I can find something.
 
I remember the practice well. I grew up with it. It was a joke in our family since my handwriting is one of the world's poorest.
I do not remember when it changed or why. I will see if I can find something.
Your handwriting can't be any worse than mine and trying to print the order on that little line with the car rocking and possibly a couple drinks working on you was always a task :)
 
I remember the practice well. I grew up with it. It was a joke in our family since my handwriting is one of the world's poorest.
I do not remember when it changed or why. I will see if I can find something.
Your handwriting can't be any worse than mine and trying to print the order on that little line with the car rocking and possibly a couple drinks working on you was always a task :)
That, in turn, reminds me of the old days when railroad lounge cars and hotels provided stationary, Some hotels still do but a lot don't aince so few people write "real" letters any more.

But imagine me with my poor handwriting writing a letter on a 70-80 mph train and yes, more more in the past than now, a little liquid boost.

But back to the original question, I wish somebody would find it. I looked through some books, such as "Dinner in the Diner" and could not find it. Checked the web and found the question asked but not answered.
 
I remember the practice well. I grew up with it. It was a joke in our family since my handwriting is one of the world's poorest.
I do not remember when it changed or why. I will see if I can find something.
Your handwriting can't be any worse than mine and trying to print the order on that little line with the car rocking and possibly a couple drinks working on you was always a task :)
That, in turn, reminds me of the old days when railroad lounge cars and hotels provided stationary, Some hotels still do but a lot don't aince so few people write "real" letters any more.

But imagine me with my poor handwriting writing a letter on a 70-80 mph train and yes, more more in the past than now, a little liquid boost.

But back to the original question, I wish somebody would find it. I looked through some books, such as "Dinner in the Diner" and could not find it. Checked the web and found the question asked but not answered.
many of the early dining car waiters were illiterate and literally couldn't write.

most chefs and most of the waiters had memorized the positions of things on the menu

Bob
 
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I remember the practice well. I grew up with it. It was a joke in our family since my handwriting is one of the world's poorest.
I do not remember when it changed or why. I will see if I can find something.
Your handwriting can't be any worse than mine and trying to print the order on that little line with the car rocking and possibly a couple drinks working on you was always a task :)
That, in turn, reminds me of the old days when railroad lounge cars and hotels provided stationary, Some hotels still do but a lot don't aince so few people write "real" letters any more.

But imagine me with my poor handwriting writing a letter on a 70-80 mph train and yes, more more in the past than now, a little liquid boost.

But back to the original question, I wish somebody would find it. I looked through some books, such as "Dinner in the Diner" and could not find it. Checked the web and found the question asked but not answered.
Aloha Bill

But if that train rocking was just so, your handwriting would be perfect Penmanship"
 
He/she pays for the missing food.
Is that really true?

I know that it is illegal for a restaurant to charge, for example, a waitress for a breaking a plate. The courts have ruled that such, is a normal and expect cost of doing business.

Now, if a LSA is constantly "loosing" food, they could be fired. However, making them pay for every unaccounted-for dining roll, IMHO, would be illegal. Or is Amtrak exempt from such labor laws?

Do sleeper attendant's have to pay for every missing towel?
 
He/she pays for the missing food.
Is that really true?

I know that it is illegal for a restaurant to charge, for example, a waitress for a breaking a plate. The courts have ruled that such, is a normal and expect cost of doing business.

Now, if a LSA is constantly "loosing" food, they could be fired. However, making them pay for every unaccounted-for dining roll, IMHO, would be illegal. Or is Amtrak exempt from such labor laws?

Do sleeper attendant's have to pay for every missing towel?
It is a rather archaic system. The LSA signs for the total inventory of food and supplies that are issued to the dining car - the same for the LSA in the lounge car. At the end of the trip, the LSA must reconcile the inventory sheets - very long computer print outs - and then is held responsbile for any missing or unaccounted for items. There is hope that a Point of Sale system, which will tie back to the warehouse inventory distribution will help modernize this inefficient system.
 
It's a normal business practice to make a cashier pay for any money missing from their cash register. I imagine that this is not plate breaking so much as inventory control similar to that cash register. There is probably a form to fill out for food lost to, for example, falling on the floor.
 
It's a normal business practice to make a cashier pay for any money missing from their cash register.
I don't believe that is true either. Even the best of cashiers come up either over or under on a regular basis.

I know that way back in another century, when I had a summer job that involved a cash register, I was "boned" or insured for any losses.

Again, if cashier has substantial cash missing from their register, the employer's only real option, is to fire them, and if they had clear evidence, hand that evidence over to the police.
 
Not my experience as either manager or owner of various businesses over the years. Cashiers are always responsible for overages or shortages of more then a few dollars- when I ran my own small business for a bit, I set it at $3.00. At the end of the week, if you didn't add up by more than $3.00 less, you owed me the difference, and it came outta your pay check. Too much of it, and you'd get canned.

Breaking a plate is a mistake. Counting your money off by a dollar or two is a mistake. Being by more than that is incompetence. Doing that chronically is a reason not to be in a line of work involving cash control. Sorry, thats just the way it is. Its a very solid deterent to theft to operate like that. Yes, it happens. People are off on their counts. I understand that.

But I had this person who chronically gave $50 instead of $20 bills in change from things, and I had enough customers who didn't notice it, intentionally or not. Am I not supposed to demand that the $150 a week this person cost me by their carelessness be paid back to me? Am I out of my rights that I fired them after the third week? Com'on.

Actually, a server who breaks too many plates is also likely to get canned.
 
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I believe Amtrak is not subject to any state laws, and it wouldn't surprise me if any labor laws along these lines tend to be state laws and not federal laws. Indeed, I suspect that since the federal government is allowed by the Constitution to make laws about interstate commerce, for most businesses this would have to be regulated by state laws and not federal laws.

And there may be sufficiently few businesses not subject to any state laws that having federal laws for this never reaches the top of anyone's priorities.
 
I believe Amtrak is not subject to any state laws, and it wouldn't surprise me if any labor laws along these lines tend to be state laws and not federal laws. Indeed, I suspect that since the federal government is allowed by the Constitution to make laws about interstate commerce, for most businesses this would have to be regulated by state laws and not federal laws.
And there may be sufficiently few businesses not subject to any state laws that having federal laws for this never reaches the top of anyone's priorities.
Umm, haven't railroad labor conditions been a subject of federal legislation since the 19th century? Google "Railway Labor Act." Check out the federal Fair Labor Standards Act, too, which directly affects Amtrak's operations. Heck, I can remember when Amtrak enforced No. Dak.'s Sunday closing law, so I doubt that Amtrak can flout local laws with impunity.

FWIW, the rudest an Amtrak dining car attendant has ever been to me is to politely suggest that they needed to turn the table, which I saw as a perfectly legitimate request.
 
I'm not sure that these deductions for cash overages/losses among cashiers are legal.

State by state may vary, but these googled sites would indicate that your remedies are criminal actions or firing for gross negligence or civil suits for the losses, not charging for the shortages. I cant find one state that allows it, so far.

The law seems to agree that shortages are a cost of doing business, unless a product of willful malice or neglect worthy of firing or suing or arresting.

So yes, Green Maned Lion, you may have been breaking the law (I'm not sure what state you are in, so I can't be sure) by deducting shortages from wages.

...

See: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Employment-Law-...r-Shortages.htm

Public Act 390 of 1978, in section 7(1) states; ". . . an employer shall not deduct from the wages of an employee, directly or indirectly, any amount . . . without the full, free, and written consent of the employee, obtained without intimidation or fear of discharge for refusal to permit the deduction."

and section 7(2) states; ". . . a deduction for the benefit of the employer requires written consent from the employee for each wage payment subject to the deduction, and the cumulative amount of the deductions shall not reduce the gross wages paid to a rate less than minimum rate as defined in the minimum wage law of 1964, Act No. 154 of the Public Acts of 1964, being sections 408.381 to 408.398 of the Michigan Compiled Laws. . ."

and See: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Employment-Law-...er-shortage.htm

The employer cannot legally make such a deduction from your wages if, by reason of mistake or accident a cash shortage, breakage, or loss of company property/equipment occurs. The California courts have held that losses occurring without any fault on the part of the employee or that are merely the result of simple negligence are inevitable in almost any business operation and thus, the employer must bear such losses as a cost of doing business. For example, if you accidentally drop a tray of dishes, take a bad check, or have a customer walkout without paying a check, your employer cannot deduct the loss from your paycheck.

There is an exception to the foregoing contained in the Industrial Welfare Commission Wage Orders that purports to provide the employer the right to deduct from an employee’s wages for any cash shortage, breakage or loss of equipment if the employer can show that the shortage, breakage or loss is caused by a dishonest or willful act, or by the employee’s gross negligence. What this means is that a deduction may be legal if the employer proves that the loss resulted from the employee’s dishonesty, willfulness, or grossly negligent act. Under this regulation, a simple accusation does not give the employer the right to make the deduction. The DLSE has cautioned that use of this deduction contained in the IWC regulations may, in fact, not comply with the provisions of the California Labor Code and various California Court decisions. Furthermore, DLSE does not automatically assume that an employee was dishonest, acted willfully or was grossly negligent when an employer asserts such as a justification for making a deduction from an employee’s wages to cover a shortage, breakage, or loss to property or equipment.

Labor Code Section 224 clearly prohibits any deduction from an employee’s wages which is not either authorized by the employee in writing or permitted by law, and any employer who resorts to self-help does so at its own risk as an objective test is applied to determine whether the loss was due to dishonesty, willfulness, or a grossly negligent act. If your employer makes such a deduction and it is later determined that you were not guilty of a dishonest or willful act, or grossly negligent, you would be entitled to recover the amount of the wages withheld. Additionally, if you no longer work for the employer who made the deduction and it’s decided that the deduction was wrongful, you may also be able to recover the waiting time penalty pursuant to Labor Code Section 203.

Your employer may subject you to disciplinary action, up to and including termination of employment. Additionally, your employer can bring an action in court to try to recover any damages and/or losses it has suffered.

and See: http://parkingtoday.typepad.com/parking_bl...d_a_cashie.html

Parking cashiers like Tina Jordan at Denver's International Airport literally have to pay for their mistakes. The company, Ampco System Parking, makes its employees reimburse the company if their drawers are short on cash.

Jordan had to pay back Ampco $11 after she accidentally undercharged drivers who were leaving the parking lot at DIA. Jordan showed Denver's 9 Wants to Know Investigative Reporter Deborah Sherman paper receipts of her payments to Ampco that said "shortage payment" written in the memo line. Jordan said Ampco managers wouldn't pay her until she reimbursed them the $11.

The practice violates state and federal law, according to Mike McArdle, the Director of Colorado's Division of Labor. "They shouldn't be doing this," McArdle said. "This is just a normal cost of doing business when you're in the parking lot industry and you can't deduct for it." McArdle said that's tantamount to making a waiter pay for a meal after a diner leaves without paying or making a waiter pay for broken dishes.

See also: Maryland

ork, whether satisfactory or not, must be awarded compensation. Wage deductions are extraordinary, and are prohibited unless:

1. A court has ordered or allowed the employer to make the deduction. Examples include court ordered wage garnishments and orders to pay child support.

2. The Commissioner of the Maryland Division of Labor and Industry has allowed the deduction to offset or "pay for" something of value the employee has received. Examples include long distance telephone calls on the employer's business phone, personal loans, wage advances, etc.

3. Allowed by some law or regulation of the government. Examples include state and federal taxes.

4. The employee has given express written authorization to the employer to make the deduction. This should take the form of a separate and distinct statement, signed by the employee, concerning only the deduction and nothing more. Even with a proper authorization, however, employers must still pay at least the federal minimum wage in the case of a deduction made to offset a loss to the employer due to the admitted or court determined fault or negligence of an employee (for example, careless damage to the employer's truck). If the deduction is made to offset something the employee received or retained from the employer which had monetary value (for example, personal loan, use of long-distance telephone line, materials, etc.), the deduction may, in that case, reduce the employee's wages below the minimum wage. Finally, an authorized deduction may be invalid if it violates or is inconsistent with other federal or state laws or regulations.

See also: California

The California Labor Code Section 2802 states that employers must reimburse employees for all necessary, job-related expenses or losses the employee incurs, such as tools, supplies, travel expenses, mileage, food, lodging, and other business expenses. If the employee incurred expenses and the expenses incurred are necessary to do the job, the employer must reimburse the employees for those expenses.

Under state law, the employer must reimburse the employee for the total expenditures incurred. For example, an employer cannot place an arbitrary cap or limit on expenses. Also, expense reimbursement does not depend on the employees' position or salary.

Examples of employee reimbursement violations

* An employee charged to replace lost keys, tools, supplies or other company materials but not reimbursed.

* An employee asked to purchase computer equipment, software, or other required tools but not reimbursed.

* A cashier forced to pay differences of cash register shortages.
 
So yes, Green Maned Lion, you may have been breaking the law (I'm not sure what state you are in, so I can't be sure) by deducting shortages from wages.
GML, give me all your AGR points, and I will let it slide, this time. :D
 
I'm not sure that these deductions for cash overages/losses among cashiers are legal.
They are legal because they are demonstrations of negligence on the part of the employee, 1, and 2, their employment contract, as signed, explicitly explained the details of how things are done, and by nature of the contract, are bound to it. By signing the contract they are, in fact, consenting to this provision.

I know the law, too. I was going to be a lawyer once, before I decided that I am too honest for such work.
 
Most of the laws require a higher standard than I think you can assert simply by absence of the money in the till (1), and require that provisions for deduction not be bundled into any other workplace contract or document (2) -- they cannot, in the states I have been examining, be bundled into the employment contract.

Again, in most states, your remedies as employer are to ( a ) get the employee to sign away their rights without duress and in a document unbundled from any other workplace document (i.e. signing the back of the check does not indicate consent; signing the paperwork to accept the job does not indicate consent). Or ( b ) fire them. Or ( c ) sue them. In most states that I can find, if you can't build a case enough to fire them or sue them, then you eat the loss.

I am not knowledgeable about your practice or your state. This is not about you, per se. (I cannot speak to whether an intent to be a lawyer gives you any special knowledge on these affairs.)

It is about others whose employers may be using such tactics, who may read his and not know that they may have rights. This may not apply to the Amtrak discussion at hand.

David
 
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Born and raised pro-union, pro-labor. Can you tell?
Aloha

Wasn't born and raised but I AM Pro Labor and Pro Union. It doesn't mater if the employment is under a union contract or not, the Labor Law requires that in order for an employer to hold the employee accountable for Shortages and pilferage, the employee must have, as on Amtrak, complete control.

Eric
 
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